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  1. #1
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Default Epic Claw set vs Greensteel

    So since I got into a discussion with guildies about which one puts our more damage then the other I figured I post some numbers and see what others thought as well. We will put both of these peices of equipment on what they are typically used on a tank. Now my idea of a tank is someone that is going to hold agro and maintain it. However they accomplish this is fine, as long as agro is maintained at all times. I will assume this is common knowledge of the definition of a "tank".

    For this example I use a build that will benefit most from the Epic Claw set: A FBIII Barbarian GTWF Khopesh. We will be tanking our common raid bosses.

    20 Attacks:
    1: 0
    2-16: 4 damage per hit
    17-18: 12 damage per hit
    19-20: 20 damage per hit

    Equally a total of 124 damage per 20 swings or 6.2 damage per hit.

    We will then use our two most common greensteel accessories used on raid tanks. Our Dust II, and Lightning II. I'm not 100% on the approximate ammount of attacks a raid boss gets vs a GTWF but we'll use different levels of approximate attack rate to get a general idea.

    First attempt will be used at 60% attack speed work our way down and without using minor, lesser or normal guards in the equation. Just the bonus effects.

    Pit Fiend Boss (Harry, Sully, Horoth) Velah will be included here due to no electric immunities
    Lightning Strike = 2% at 600 damage
    Disintegrate =3% at 450 damage
    At 100 swings this equates to 2550 points of damage
    At 1 swing that equates to 25.5 points of damage

    60% of our 20 attacks will give our raid boss 12 attacks back.

    Equalling a total of 306 damage in our 20 swings by the raid boss or 25.5 damage per hit

    Demon Queen
    Lightning Strike= Immune
    Disintegrate =3% at 450 damage
    At 100 swings this equates to 1350 points of damage
    At 1 swing that equates to 13.5 points of damage

    Equalling a total of 162 damage in our 20 swings by the raid boss or 13.5 damage per hit

    So putting a raid boss at approxiametly 60% attack rate we have:
    Epic Claw set 124 damage vs. 306 damage (Non Queen) and 162 damage vs. Queen

    Now to 50% attack rate:
    Claw set still at 124 damage vs. 254.98 damage (Non Queen) and 134.99 vs. Queen

    Now to 40% attack rate:
    Claw set 124 damage vs. 204.10 damage (Non Queen) and 108.01 vs. Queen


    This is just done for damage purposes. I'm not going to argue why which peice is better this or that and I've left out the extra effects of the claw set vs the extra effects of greensteel. That's for others to decide what they want from the gear set and how they want to build their character. I wanted to visually display damage numbers.








  2. #2
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Bosses attack far, far slower than players.

    Velah does about 1 melee attack per 1.5-2 seconds, so 30-40 per minute. (She's probably the absolute slowest attacker of all bosses, but except for Lailat, the others aren't much faster).

    A TWF melee with 20 BAB makes about 220 attacks per minute when played optimally. (Edit - realised this is a pre Update 5 figure and the number is probably lower now)

    Plus, Disintegration Guard seems to go off no more than Lightning Storm (although it's really hard to test this conclusively, you'd need a large enough sample to have ~200 procs of each to be sure). I *think* both are 2%.
    Last edited by sirgog; 12-18-2010 at 05:09 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Krag's Avatar
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    The OP makes my eyes bleed. What is he trying to tell?
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  4. #4
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Bosses attack far, far slower than players.

    Velah does about 1 melee attack per 1.5-2 seconds, so 30-40 per minute. (She's probably the absolute slowest attacker of all bosses, but except for Lailat, the others aren't much faster).

    A TWF melee with 20 BAB makes about 220 attacks per minute when played optimally.

    Plus, Disintegration Guard seems to go off no more than Lightning Storm (although it's really hard to test this conclusively, you'd need a large enough sample to have ~200 procs of each to be sure). I *think* both are 2%.
    220 attacks per minutes seems a bit off. That equates to 3.667 attacks per second. That just doesn't seem realistic in my opinion. Even so, we'll use 220 attacks per minute for damage purposes. If we have some link or testing showing the actual attacks per minute that would be great.

    220 x 6.2 = 1364 points of extra damage per minute
    At an 25.5 points of damage on hit to even that number that would require 53.49 attacks per minute by a raid boss or one physical attack every .89 seconds. When operating the correct way (fatigue and tendon slice stop working) Harry, Sully, and Horoth hit pretty frequently.

  5. #5
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krag View Post
    The OP makes my eyes bleed. What is he trying to tell?
    To help friends with a conversation. I think I was clear, I just like colors.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendover View Post
    220 attacks per minutes seems a bit off. That equates to 3.667 attacks per second. That just doesn't seem realistic in my opinion. Even so, we'll use 220 attacks per minute for damage purposes. If we have some link or testing showing the actual attacks per minute that would be great.

    220 x 6.2 = 1364 points of extra damage per minute
    At an 25.5 points of damage on hit to even that number that would require 53.49 attacks per minute by a raid boss or one physical attack every .89 seconds. When operating the correct way (fatigue and tendon slice stop working) Harry, Sully, and Horoth hit pretty frequently.
    Horoth connects with about 1 melee attack per 1.3 seconds, according to Vanshilar's testing. (His experimental data indicated Horoth does about 130 damage per melee attack on Elite, but the physical attacks work out to about 100 damage per second, hence ~1.3 seconds per attack).
    I don't have a zerging problem.

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  7. #7
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Horoth connects with about 1 melee attack per 1.3 seconds, according to Vanshilar's testing. (His experimental data indicated Horoth does about 130 damage per melee attack on Elite, but the physical attacks work out to about 100 damage per second, hence ~1.3 seconds per attack).

    That's 46.15 attacks per minute. I'm pretty skeptical that a FB III hits 220 attacks per minute. The highest haste boost they can achieve is only 15%. And if I'm accurate the highest they can sit at on their chance to produce an off-hand swing is at 95%.

    In order for the claw set in this instance to pull ahead on horoth the FB III will need to successfully make 193 attacks per minute.

  8. #8
    Community Member Consumer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendover View Post
    That's 46.15 attacks per minute. I'm pretty skeptical that a FB III hits 220 attacks per minute. The highest haste boost they can achieve is only 15%. And if I'm accurate the highest they can sit at on their chance to produce an off-hand swing is at 95%.

    In order for the claw set in this instance to pull ahead on horoth the FB III will need to successfully make 193 attacks per minute.
    Approx 204 for a fully buffed 18/2 according to CForces numbers in the DPS calc.

    It also gets Tharne's damage when it does not have agro.



    Offence is > than defence

  9. #9
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consumer View Post
    Approx 204 for a fully buffed 18/2 according to CForces numbers in the DPS calc.

    It also gets Tharne's damage when it does not have agro.



    Offence is > than defence

    I'll have to look into that and do some physical testing thanks. 204 attacks per minute on an 18/2 Barb seems pretty high. If that is however the case and we're looking at ~200 attacks vs. ~43 attacks of a raid boss the claw set pulls ahead of a lightning strike and disintegrate that does not have any minor, lesser, and normal guards.

    And honestly, the Tharne's statement is irrelevant as this is solely based on "tanking".

  10. #10
    Community Member sirdanile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consumer View Post
    Offence is > than defence
    Except for guards... then they're the same goal and thus equal... except in numbers where per swing guards seem to be higher, but I'm not too sure about the bosses attack rate.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Lleren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendover View Post
    To help friends with a conversation. I think I was clear, I just like colors.
    Colored text makes some folks "eyes bleed."

    /shrug
    Occasionally playing on Cannith

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  12. #12
    Community Member Consumer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendover View Post
    I'll have to look into that and do some physical testing thanks. 204 attacks per minute on an 18/2 Barb seems pretty high. If that is however the case and we're looking at ~200 attacks vs. ~43 attacks of a raid boss the claw set pulls ahead of a lightning strike and disintegrate that does not have any minor, lesser, and normal guards.

    And honestly, the Tharne's statement is irrelevant as this is solely based on "tanking".
    If this were a tank discussion you would have a lit II guard on your goggles and DPS slots everywhere else.

  13. #13
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    I think for the sake of the argument what this comes down to is who prefers what. There really isn't much a clear cut winner in instance if the numbers provided by others who have contributed here are accurate of course. To each his own. In the end Turbine wins because you're either farming ingredients or farming shards, seals, and scrolls .

  14. #14
    Community Member bendover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consumer View Post
    If this were a tank discussion you would have a lit II guard on your goggles and DPS slots everywhere else.

    I'm not discussing here what's the best possible DPS layout. This is not the conversation. It was about someone tanking with the epic claw set vs. 2 greensteels in their place.

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