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  1. #21
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drall. View Post
    I think it's a Chai-ism more than anything else. It is not a set of rules or anything like that. From what I have been reading I think Chai uses it in a context where you do not have any pre-set guild hardcore rules but you apply the hardcore rules to your character or group only. They seem to vary on the different context but we are talking about a different way to say hardcore.

    I also think it is confusing. Sometimes I believe it's used as a debating artifact more than anything else.
    The definition of Ironman in PnP games is restriction of gear acquisition and has been the case since the mid 70s or so. The definition of permadeath in PnP games is if your character dies it is dead. There is no possibility of raising. Reroll is the only option, and that usually comes with a penalty.

    Ironic, that the people who play ironman in video games actually use the word permadeath to associate their playstye. There are people who play permadeath without possibility of raising on other online games, but I have not met these people in DDO, or another MMO as of yet. Usualy its something like NWN, or a MUD of some sort.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #22

    Default This is no Tall Tale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The definition of Ironman in PnP games is restriction of gear acquisition and has been the case since the mid 70s or so. The definition of permadeath in PnP games is if your character dies it is dead. There is no possibility of raising. Reroll is the only option, and that usually comes with a penalty.

    Ironic, that the people who play ironman in video games actually use the word permadeath to associate their playstye. There are people who play permadeath without possibility of raising on other online games, but I have not met these people in DDO, or another MMO as of yet. Usualy its something like NWN, or a MUD of some sort.
    I have to say that I always DMed "low magic" campaigns, where magic was rare or was a highly guarded secret.

    In these campaigns I would allow for limited purchase of healing potions from "alchemists" - not "mages" - in some of the larger cities in the setting. I would also let every new character start with 1 enchanted item and we would create a backstory as to how they aquired it. - If we couldn't think of a cool story it would be a "heirloom" item handed down in their family. In the campaigns I ran it would be VERY rare for a player to aquire a second magical item before level 6 or 7. When it happened it was almost always plot related.

    That said - what we see here in DDO - even by using only what you pull - is imo by PnP standards a very high magic campaign. I don't think there is any arguing this point - in almost any non-epic PnP campaign having a weapon set that grants you a 2 bonus to hit (korthos set) is huge. - especially if it stacks with a magic weapons bonus.

    The point I am getting at here is that while I can appreciate the difficulty involved in not using the AH or broker (especially beyond level 10) I personally don't see the point, unless its RP related. I'm not trying to start the debate about game mechanics requiring certain gear or the like, just stating my personal preference.

    Now Sublime is not an RP guild - and I don't really RP, but I DO think about my characters from an RP standpoint - and will occasionally write up backstories and the like to post on the guild's forums.

    If I were to play in a PD guild that allowed no AH use and no Broker use I would want to have the following instead:

    1. Normal, Hard, and Elite on every quest is allowed - provided there is no "underlevel" questing. *I can self enforce this with Sublime's ruleset.

    2. Consumable purchase allowed in quantities of 20 or less. - exception being wands and scrolls - wands would be allowed up to 5 each, and no limit to scrolls - as a caster in PnP can scribe them himself. *I can self enforce this with Sublime's ruleset.

    3. Trading would be allowed within guild provided it was within level range ( I.E. a level 4 can trade with a level 7) No daisy chaining. -This is Sublime's policy.

    4. One heirloom item upon character death. -This is Sublime's policy.

    5. Maximum allowable raises = 1/2 con score. *I can self enforce this with Sublime's ruleset.


    So with my personal preferences on how I like to play, I chose The Sublime because it has a "free" enough ruleset to accomodate how I want to play, as well as how many others want to play. All of the above rules I more or less always self-enforce, I use the A - but my use of it is limited, and I make it a point not to abuse it. I almost never use the brokers - not for any reason in particular - I just don't. I have never really thought out the rules I just typed - its just how I play. I figure if my character isn't self-sufficient enough to need fewer than 20 (5 or 10 really - but I hate shopping after EVERY quest) potions I need to reroll anyway (I play mostly monk multiclasses). And as far as quest selection - I like to solo, I also like to group, I want my quests to be challenging - and I don't want to be the person preventing the rest of the group from running what they want. I repeat quests every once in a while - but not usually, and if I do its going to be at a higher difficulty.

    So! The point of all that to be this:

    I agree with what you are thinking behind this KG, and I agree with what Duncan feels about splintering the PD community - but I understand the need to a degree, to which extent I agree also with Parvo. My personal philosophy is somewhere in between:

    -I do not want to have to police everybody else. (Ala Chai and, it would seem, KG as well.)
    -I do not feel that other people playing differently in anyway cheapens my experience, or degrades from the way I choose to play - this includes when people who abuse the AH or grind quests group with me.
    -I enjoy having the freedom to "bend" my personal questing rules (which are more difficult than what is laid out by Sublime) reasons for bending them could be for any of the following: group composition, quest selection, experience of the players involved. (Ala - Chai)
    - I think having a PD group on every server is good exposure for the community. (Ala - Parvo)
    - I think that the "who is more hardcore" debate is stupid and unimportant, and is more personality based than rules based. (Ala -KG and Chai)
    - I do not feel that I need to have a concrete ruleset to ensure difficult play, people desiring challenge will provide their own challenge. (Ala - Chai)


    So good luck with your guild(s) and while I would love to play with any of you - I feel that they way any of you play PD is easily accomodated within the Sublime - but that the way Sublime plays is NOT accomodated within yours. (Exception possibly being KG). So I would instead, invite you all to roll a hardcore toon in The Sublime!

    Just wanted to respond to the invitation to come and join some of you on your respective servers.


    Lastly, I promise, I am also confused as to why you aren't allowing arrows and components to be purchased.
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
    www.thesublimeguild.com

    Go Hard or Go Home!

  3. #23
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talltale-Storyteller View Post
    That said - what we see here in DDO - even by using only what you pull - is imo by PnP standards a very high magic campaign. I don't think there is any arguing this point - in almost any non-epic PnP campaign having a weapon set that grants you a 2 bonus to hit (korthos set) is huge. - especially if it stacks with a magic weapons bonus.
    Yeap. Then you get into the clickies people pull and use twice per rest like boots with 2 expeditious retreat, and necklaces that give mana back (ring of minor spell storing, look up the value on these items in a 3.5 DMG once, heh)

    If you grab a DMG for 3.5 you will see there is a guideline for how much plat a character will have acquired by certain level benchmarks. DDO is designed around a similar system, though likely not the same values. The point here is the game we play and the content associated with it is designed with the assumption that you will have certain levels of gear by the time you run certain content. Having that equipment doesnt make completion a certainty, as some like to banter, but not having that gear definately makes it harder to complete. This concept ramps up exponentially as characters acheive higher and higher level.

    One other important fact is that in PnP there is a full crafting system in place. People may blow their skill points entirely on combat skills, but they wont likely be able to have the items that someone who spreads their skill points around into non combat skills has. All of a sudden, even on fighters, barbs, clerics, etc, int is no longer a dump stat. Skill points are as valuable and sometimes more valuable than feats, due to the fact that investing in certain skills as a group whole will allow the group to craft items as needed. Ironman play is still tough, theres no doubt about it.

    So how do you simulate someone having X amount of gold allowance per level in DDO to "craft" gear? Since you cant really craft in most situations, this obviously means buying needed items. However, money is easy to come by so there has to be a limit right? Do you demand that people start keeping full on accounting ledgers on their toons, as well as adding up the in game stated value of items purchased to make sure they are under the limit? Soon, running a "PD" guild becomes something very akin to managing an NFL football team, keeping players under the salary cap, and making sure no one is bending or breaking the accounting rules. Do guild leaders and officers then become full on comptrollers and cops so we can catch the white collar D&D mafia breaking the rules and smuggling in unaccounted for goods into their inventories?

    At what point do we just play the game by its intended design and have fun? This of course means not having to justify ourselves to the permadeath police when we complete quests and share it with the community.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap. Then you get into the clickies people pull and use twice per rest like boots with 2 expeditious retreat, and necklaces that give mana back (ring of minor spell storing, look up the value on these items in a 3.5 DMG once, heh)

    If you grab a DMG for 3.5 you will see there is a guideline for how much plat a character will have acquired by certain level benchmarks. DDO is designed around a similar system, though likely not the same values. The point here is the game we play and the content associated with it is designed with the assumption that you will have certain levels of gear by the time you run certain content. Having that equipment doesnt make completion a certainty, as some like to banter, but not having that gear definately makes it harder to complete. This concept ramps up exponentially as characters acheive higher and higher level.

    One other important fact is that in PnP there is a full crafting system in place. People may blow their skill points entirely on combat skills, but they wont likely be able to have the items that someone who spreads their skill points around into non combat skills has. All of a sudden, even on fighters, barbs, clerics, etc, int is no longer a dump stat. Skill points are as valuable and sometimes more valuable than feats, due to the fact that investing in certain skills as a group whole will allow the group to craft items as needed. Ironman play is still tough, theres no doubt about it.

    So how do you simulate someone having X amount of gold allowance per level in DDO to "craft" gear? Since you cant really craft in most situations, this obviously means buying needed items. However, money is easy to come by so there has to be a limit right? Do you demand that people start keeping full on accounting ledgers on their toons, as well as adding up the in game stated value of items purchased to make sure they are under the limit? Soon, running a "PD" guild becomes something very akin to managing an NFL football team, keeping players under the salary cap, and making sure no one is bending or breaking the accounting rules. Do guild leaders and officers then become full on comptrollers and cops so we can catch the white collar D&D mafia breaking the rules and smuggling in unaccounted for goods into their inventories?

    At what point do we just play the game by its intended design and have fun? This of course means not having to justify ourselves to the permadeath police when we complete quests and share it with the community.
    In my opinion, stated for the 100th time, no one ever needs to justify anything to anyone when it comes to playing a computer game.

    Fun is fun, and it is its own justification. When the debate switches to accomplishment, that's a whole new ballgame. I'll put Mobararo's scars up against any other PD toon on any server. He says, "Are you talking to me? Don't make me lift my eyepatch."

    Batter up!
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
    HC stands for Hard Core
    on Khyber
    thecorehc.home.comcast.net

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    I'll put Mobararo's scars up against any other PD toon on any server. He says, "Are you talking to me? Don't make me lift my eyepatch."

    Batter up!
    Bluemercury soloed Eye of the Titan, on elite.

    Just sayin'.


    Poking fun aside, I agree with a sentiment you stated in another thread. Something along the lines of viewing an accomplishment and privately saying to yourself "meh." I think that is the proper thing to do. Coming on the forums and publicly lambasting or denouncing another person's accomplishment is in poor taste. Acknowledging in private that it was nothing special is entirely different.
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
    www.thesublimeguild.com

    Go Hard or Go Home!

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talltale-Storyteller View Post
    Bluemercury soloed Eye of the Titan, on elite.

    Just sayin'.


    Poking fun aside, I agree with a sentiment you stated in another thread. Something along the lines of viewing an accomplishment and privately saying to yourself "meh." I think that is the proper thing to do. Coming on the forums and publicly lambasting or denouncing another person's accomplishment is in poor taste. Acknowledging in private that it was nothing special is entirely different.
    Why did Chai even bring this topic up again? And you're saying xyz is in poor taste but to my knowledge its a straw target and no one is actually doing it.
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
    HC stands for Hard Core
    on Khyber
    thecorehc.home.comcast.net

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Why did Chai even bring this topic up again? And you're saying xyz is in poor taste but to my knowledge its a straw target and no one is actually doing it.
    I don't think anybody is doing it now either, and its a good thing. That post was more to poke fun at your claim, and to agree with a previous staement that you have made - not to restart an old and trite discussion that, in essence, we all agree on. lol
    Member of The Sublime Permadeath Guild on Thelanis.
    www.thesublimeguild.com

    Go Hard or Go Home!

  8. #28
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Why did Chai even bring this topic up again? And you're saying xyz is in poor taste but to my knowledge its a straw target and no one is actually doing it.
    Pretty much because there is talk here of how much of a demand it is to enforce rules that go above and beyond what the game was designed for, and I agree with what was said about that level of demand.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #29

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    Obviously I think the game is more fun if we take the great things of this game (the combat system and variability of characters, to name just a few), and then crank up the challenge by simply refusing to twink characters and use shrines.

    Without hardcore permadeath play, I would have quit the so-called "intended" game years ago. Prior knowledge spoils the fun if you don't hobble the toons a bit.
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
    HC stands for Hard Core
    on Khyber
    thecorehc.home.comcast.net

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