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  1. #21
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    I just wanted to chime in about the gang of level 1 wizards killing a dragon.


    In previous editions most of those Wizards would not have gotten past their initial fear save for just seeing the dragon. The entire notion of a gang of any lowbies killing a dragon is so silly it should not even be considered as a possibility. Any DM worth his salt would not set-up such a scenario, other than for backstory or campaign flavor.

  2. #22
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Kinda untrue. Use the Barrel of Monkeys concept.

    Bazillion generic commoner archers with bows at max range. Figure out how many you need to hit on a 20 and the damage expected, then multiply it out.



    That existed in 3.5 in many concepts. All of them (in both editions) can be resolved with plot. What is being described is a specific scenario with vast assumptions that should never occur. Like all the wizards winning initiative, being the optimal distance away, etc. (something which, funnily enough, a lower-level wizard could do in 3.5 - beat the big dragon on init reliably ... but can't as easily in 4e).

    Another thing to understand about 4e is that the dynamics of the combat map were also considered and MOST combats will take place on something that is about 16x20. The powers and abilities of players and monsters are based on that.

    4e is balanced as a system *internally* more so than on external factors ... those are abstracted to plot (see rituals, movement, long-range combat, etc. etc.)
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  3. #23
    Community Member Cam_Neely's Avatar
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    Yes, was merely a comical though experiment. Ideally the room would be 40x40 with the dragon in the middle (taking up 4 squares if I remember correctly) and all the wizards (with range of 20) being spaced out. Assume the dragon goes first, uses something like a 5x5 AoE, takes out 5 or so guys. the rest blast 2+int mod (+5 for 20 starting int). One round done . Situations like that only would happen if the DM was an idiot and will happen in any gaming system where the DM is an idiot.


    Either way, the change to MM is not as powerful as I thought. Very powerful in our serious, but non min-max/power group. We rarely play past lv 10 before rerolling. But, it will be something that our DM will have to think about cause our wizards play style before hand was to use MM as a minor, purely cause he liked the spell to **** off monsters and give out Tank a hard time. Then he would do CC as his standard move.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Hate me if you want, as of right now I'm not letting anyone crack open the build for this. Nope no way. Nada. I need developers working on the expansion pack, and that only. Again, hate me all you want, but creating a whole new realm takes priority over a broken bag. This is pretty much true of a few of the other issues that crept in today also.

  4. #24
    Community Member DFraser's Avatar
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    Okay I play and enjoy 4th edition, not the topic and will not get in to a flame war over it.
    Back to topic.
    To sum up some of the consequences, ill quote an email I sent to my group, based on my understanding of the change.

    1.) It is auto dmg. No stopping it. Cover, concealment, invisibility, prone, running, marked all that stuff that would normally make it harder to hit stuff is ignored.

    Correct I would argue Invis but that is a GMs call.

    2.) It only does about 7 (2+int mod) dmg, but that is equal to about 1d12+1. And when you can do this as a minor (via an daily power I think that enables this for the rest of the encounter), every turn, that is some nasty dmg.

    Really??? Really?? Okay a fighter will do d10+5 so ummm 10.5 Dmg not seeing it. Unless you have REALLY bad dice rolling abilities.

    3.) Minons in the game have only 1 HP, but they can be pretty hard to hit, they normally have higher AC will ect. You are now a Minion Pwner!

    That is true.

    4. Magic Missile is the most iconic old school wizard spell in the book (next to fireball maybe). This change moved 4e back towards 3.5 where magic missile was an auto hit. Very interesting moves from the WtWC development team (in addition to the re release of the red box)

    NC

    5.) There is no attack part of the spell any more. Just auto force dmg. Technically I think that means that stuff that is triggered by an attack does not take place. ie if someone is granted temp HP on being attacked, they dont get the Temp HP. If Ottis is marked, and he does Magic Missile, then its not an attack, so does not suffer an opportunity attack.

    Umm... Really? Oh wait it is a ranged ability so that little mark will go off, Hmmm oh wait it say in its type ITS AN ATTACK.

    6.) A level 11 adult black dragon has 560 HP, so about 85 min/maxed 20 int lv1 wizards could kill it in one round (assuming a few are killed when the dragon goes first.)

    NC

  5. #25
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam_Neely View Post
    wow, no thoughts? I guess it is understandable as there are no real strong opinions showing up in the Pencil and Paper sub forum 8-)

    Personally I think its a bit unbalancing, cause if a wizard focused on bumping this up, they could be an extremely strong single target caster with strong AoE and debuffs. There is no way to easily reduce a Wizards dmg besides killing (I dont have the DMG or PHB in front of me, but it seems weaking might not effect this?)

    As a step back towards older versions of Magic Missile, I think its a step in the wrong direction. Would have been better implemented if you could add to the number of Missiles cast as opposed to making it auto hit (which in the setting of 4e does not fit well).

    4e was to pull in new players that never considered playing D&D, but had played MMOs. It has gotten more people to play D&D. Now that they 'hooked' people, is 4e going to be a short lived version with a 5 coming out in the next +/- 2 years that is a step back towards 3.5 or ADD?
    After 4E I refuse to play another WOTC pnp game I play HMB now while awaiting AHM

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  6. #26
    Community Member Cam_Neely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFraser View Post
    Really??? Really?? Okay a fighter will do d10+5 so ummm 10.5 Dmg not seeing it. Unless you have REALLY bad dice rolling abilities.
    Dont know fighters myself, but did not know they had a minor attack that did 1(w)+str dmg at will. Also, did not know that they could hit 100% of the time. For my group its power, but not full Min-Maxing (and dont go beyond lv 10. With that there is no way our strikers are hitting on a 2, since its pretty easy to have high AC (which fighters hit).

    Before you get rude, think it though. 100% hit, as a minor, every round.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFraser View Post
    Umm... Really? Oh wait it is a ranged ability so that little mark will go off, Hmmm oh wait it say in its type ITS AN ATTACK.
    Magic missile can be used as a basic attack. Forget the wording, but from what I remember, you can make it non ranged. Also no reason to be rude. If you read the link it says "Replace the attack..." and it becomes damage, there is no mention of attack, and there is no attack rule. DMing I would make it an attack, but per the rules it seems like there is no attack function here.

    Also read the "I Think it means" meaning, that was my interpretation, and I was asking for some feedback. Thanks for all the great and indepth points you make.

    imaginary -1. Since i dont have the rep
    Last edited by Cam_Neely; 11-15-2010 at 11:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Hate me if you want, as of right now I'm not letting anyone crack open the build for this. Nope no way. Nada. I need developers working on the expansion pack, and that only. Again, hate me all you want, but creating a whole new realm takes priority over a broken bag. This is pretty much true of a few of the other issues that crept in today also.

  7. #27
    Community Member DFraser's Avatar
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    Cut and pasted from WotC.

    Magic Missile Wizard Attack 1
    You launch a silvery bolt of force at an enemy.
    At-Will ✦ Arcane, Force, Implement
    Standard Action Ranged 20
    Target: One creature
    Effect: 2 + Intelligence modifier force damage.
    Level 11: 3 + Intelligence modifier force damage.
    Level 21: 5 + Intelligence modifier force damage.
    Special: If the implement used with this power has an
    enhancement bonus, add that bonus to the damage. In
    addition, you can use this power as a ranged basic attack.

    Okay
    No minor mentioned. I and most people I know will take the roll for more damage. Also it can not crit.
    Ranged Basic Attack. Not a "basic attack" there is a difference, do not have my books on hand but it still draw attacks of oppertunity from a person in threat range. If I recall Certain "leader" abilities give people a ranged basic attack. But I have seen nothing that converts Ranged basic attack to a Basic Attack (AKA Melee).

    If you read the link it says "Replace the attack..."
    Yes Replace the old magic missle with this... see cut and paste above.

  8. #28
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Magic missile does 1d4+1 damage plus one additional 1d4+1 for every two levels beyond 1st to a maximum of 5d4+5 and never misses its target. Anything else is heresy.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobeius View Post
    4Ed DnD is proof of what happens when you keep fixing it till its broken. Which incidentally I am starting to see in DDO.
    4e is what happens when WOTC goes "WoW makes a lot of money, D&D makes a lot of money... so lets combine them in PnP form. We'll be rich!"

    Does anyone actually play this system? Everyone I know bought the books and then ebayed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by samthedagger View Post
    Magic missile does 1d4+1 damage plus one additional 1d4+1 for every two levels beyond 1st to a maximum of 5d4+5 and never misses its target. Anything else is heresy.
    this.
    4th ed is heresy... heretics must be purged with fire lol

  10. #30
    Community Member katana_one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddahcjcc View Post

    Does anyone actually play this system? Everyone I know bought the books and then ebayed them.


    Yes. Regularly in fact. I play as a player every Thursday night usually (taking a break so I can run some D6 Star Wars at the moment). I also DM a game every other Sunday.
    You are responsible for your own DDO experience.

  11. #31
    Community Member katana_one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFraser View Post
    Cut and pasted from WotC.

    <snip>

    Okay
    No minor mentioned.
    There is a level 1 Daily Wizard power that allows you to use Magic Missile as a minor action for the rest of the encounter. This is probably where people are getting the "cast as a minor action" from. Just FYI. It uses a Daily power, so I don't really feel it's all that broken.

    I and most people I know will take the roll for more damage. Also it can not crit.
    Excellent observation.
    Ranged Basic Attack. Not a "basic attack" there is a difference, do not have my books on hand but it still draw attacks of oppertunity from a person in threat range.
    That's my take as well. Nowhere does it say that it's *not* an "attack". The power description specifically says "Attack Power" and "Ranged: 20". So it's a ranged attack power, subject to all rules that apply. There's just no dice involved - that's it, the only difference.
    You are responsible for your own DDO experience.

  12. #32
    Community Member sainy_matthew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam_Neely View Post
    Seems to have some interesting consequences, most notably that this is a step back towards 3.5 and 2. Combined with the 're release' of the Red Box. Does this mean with that WotWC have realized a potential err in their progression from 3.5 to 4?
    Going off of sales numbers i would say yes WotC is starting to realize that they may have made a mistake. Piazo's Pathfinder line has sold just as well as WotC 4E (not including sales of Online features & novels, of which its thought that WotC is suprisingly not the winner in either). So Pathfinder is on the rise, while 4E is on the decline. Now to put that into percpective WotC's sales for 4E were huge when it first came out regardless of ones position on the game most of you purchased the core books. However as time goes by a lot of people are realizing that 4E doesn't really do as much as they would like & the things it does do are not working the way people think they should.

    As for specifics on the rules, i wouldn't know: I havent picked up a 4E book since September of last year, after Gencon OZ & "the incident"

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    A few things to keep in mind, framing wise.

    - The fluff of D&D worlds is essentially the same. The plot, the story, etc.
    - The crunch and mechanics are different in each including 3.x and 4.x. It was so with each edition.
    - The approach that 4e took was less of a minor adjustment and more of a holistically different design approach.
    Also i thought i'd debunk this now. 4E DnD is not even remotely conceptually similiar to previous editions of D&D (not just 3E, i mean any previous edition). While the rules may have been different there was always a conceptually link... With 4E no such link exists.


    -M
    Last edited by sainy_matthew; 11-16-2010 at 09:51 PM.

  13. #33
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    Also i thought i'd debunk this now. 4E DnD is not even remotely conceptually similiar to previous editions of D&D (not just 3E, i mean any previous edition). While the rules may have been different there was always a conceptually link... With 4E no such link exists.


    -M
    A link exists, its just ends in World of Warcraft, not D&D

  14. #34
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    Make that a step 'forward' yeah, saying a step back sounds like the change is bad.

    What people forget about spamming low level spells is the same as when people complained about unlimited charged items.
    Sure is nice to have an endless supply, but you can still only cast one per round.

    On a high level magical fight there's no actions to waste on activating weak items, let alone casting common spells.
    And that's with each round starting with 'time stop'.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by donfilibuster View Post
    Make that a step 'forward' yeah, saying a step back sounds like the change is bad.

    What people forget about spamming low level spells is the same as when people complained about unlimited charged items.
    Sure is nice to have an endless supply, but you can still only cast one per round.

    On a high level magical fight there's no actions to waste on activating weak items, let alone casting common spells.
    And that's with each round starting with 'time stop'.
    I always find it funny that with discussions like this people always say "well at high levels...." to explain why something isnt broken. Its like the latest argument in WoW as to why the game is imbalanced and everyone screams that the game balances at 85 (a level not currently attainable by the way).
    When you spend MOST of your game time NOT at high levels, this might not be true.
    Theres a big difference between having a set spell list and spell slots that you have to choose to use or you run out (which was the way I LIKED playing my Wizards)
    And having unlimited cast spells that you can use "at will" regardless of "how powerful" they are.
    AT LOW LEVELS (put in caps for those that would go to the defense in "...but at high levels"
    What I dont get is why these spells dont level with you (or do thay and I never saw it). IE 1st level Daily powers eventually becoming at will powers? Youd think that as yiou grow and your power gets stronger that youd figure out how to cast them more often.
    Im playing a Pathfinder game where our characters just hit 9 and I think thats the highest character Ive ever had (and been playing for 20 plus years) as we usually play low end games (that dissolve before they finish due to job changes etc etc).
    Last edited by buddahcjcc; 11-20-2010 at 09:44 AM.

  16. #36
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    Default sorry!

    this doesnt have anything to do with the original post but i want to know how do you post stuff? sorry about posting on your thread.

  17. #37
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuiceMooses View Post
    this doesnt have anything to do with the original post but i want to know how do you post stuff? sorry about posting on your thread.
    Congratulations, looks like you figured it out!

  18. #38
    Community Member katana_one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddahcjcc View Post
    What I dont get is why these spells dont level with you (or do thay and I never saw it). IE 1st level Daily powers eventually becoming at will powers? Youd think that as yiou grow and your power gets stronger that youd figure out how to cast them more often.
    First Level At-Will Powers do scale with the character. Usually doubling in damage upon reaching Paragon Tier (levels 11-20), then tripling at Epic Tier (I think, don't feel like looking it up right now).

    Daily Powers don't scale, but you get to replace them with more powerful Daily Powers at certain levels. Usually, you can find a power with a similar enough description/effect that you can flavor it as a more powerful version of the previous power.

    Probably not what you're looking for, but I hope that was helpful in some way.
    Last edited by katana_one; 11-22-2010 at 07:36 AM.
    You are responsible for your own DDO experience.

  19. #39
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainy_matthew View Post
    Also i thought i'd debunk this now. 4E DnD is not even remotely conceptually similiar to previous editions of D&D (not just 3E, i mean any previous edition). While the rules may have been different there was always a conceptually link... With 4E no such link exists.


    -M
    Are you debunking, or agreeing with my holistically different design approach statement?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  20. #40
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    the "minor at-will" is most often a combination of:

    Magic Missile
    The level 1 daily that lets you cast it 1/round as a minor
    Various epic destinies (like Archmage) that let you turn one daily into an encounter
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

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