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  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest difficulty rating, I would give Taming the Flames elite a 9.75. The Pit elite would be a 6.

    We have gone into Taming the Flames a few time and retreated, and we have completed it once or twice in The Core. But the last time in we had a decent group and after a few moments of pure panic, we hit the recall button and bailed. The Pit elite, on the other hand, has become somewhat of a standard run. Underestimating the traps in either quest would be a really bad mistake.

    Grats on the achievement!
    Im sorry man, but I have to ask. Why is it that you feel taming the flames is much more difficult than everything in the known universe? I know some people have a thorn in their side about proof is in the poison, or get butthurt when they cant figure out the pit, but so far you seem to be the only one propping up taming the flame. I think it can be a tough quest, but ~40% harder than the pit at level?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I think Taming the Flames is more difficult than The Pit but not by a whole lot. Both can be resource hogs. Our group did use a lot of consumables. If you're playing with magic purchase at the vendors, and know what your up against, both are much easier. House Phiarlan buffs also make Taming easier. Of course both are much more difficult without prior knowledge. Because of it's uniqueness, The Pit is exceptionally hard for new players without spoilers. Taming, because it is rarely run is also a quest many are not familiar with. On scale of 1-10, the way MV plays:

    Chronoscope hard 10
    Taming elite 8.5
    The Pit elite 8.0
    A Small Problem elite 7.5
    Proof elite 7.0

    If Jepto continues elite-once-and-done there are some base level 8 quests I rate more difficult than Taming.
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  3. #43
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Jepto found an MV group for Tear of Dhakaan elite. We were excited about the loot opportunities and the place did not dissapoint. Two +1 tomes (dex and int), +5 plate, slew of other nice items and gear. XP was big too. We slaughtered this one. I miss the old Tear as it required better play to complete. Tear netted Jepto house K favor. I've never had a level nine character achieve house K extra bank space before.

    Jepto has only Sentinals and Delera's series left to complete at or below quest level seven. Although holding at level nine to complete at level, Jepto has enough XP to train up to ten. He has 1151 total favor.
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im sorry man, but I have to ask. Why is it that you feel taming the flames is much more difficult than everything in the known universe? I know some people have a thorn in their side about proof is in the poison, or get butthurt when they cant figure out the pit, but so far you seem to be the only one propping up taming the flame. I think it can be a tough quest, but ~40% harder than the pit at level?
    A guy in our guild who is currently on hiatus probably hit the nail on the head. Way, way, way back the spell Protection from Energy used to be unlimited protection vs. that elemental damage. Later, the spell was nerfed so that after a certain number of points was consumed, the protection wore off. In his opinion, and I think he might be right, the quest was ranked only at a level 6 (and then upgraded to a level 7 not long ago) because the Dev's assumed that the entire party would PROBABLY have complete immunity from fire when they ran the quest via Protection from Energy: Fire.

    But after the nerf, it doesn't take much for the mobs to wear down the points of protection provided by the spell. In The Core we could never run with Protection from Fire up (too resource intensive) and it's hard enough keeping Resist Energy up for the entire party.

    I'll just say in The Core not long ago we tried running it on hard with a good group (bard, wizzie, wf tank, halfling monk, drow cleric, 1 more) and ran out of there with our tail between our legs. Resist 20 was just not cutting it, and we almost wiped.

    If you know your way around The Pit, the mobs themselves do not present much of a danger. Unlike a lot of foes in Taming the Flames, trogs are a relatively soft target: they are vulnerable to sneak attack, stunning, trip, hold person, among others. Furthermore, they are evil, so paladins are on parade in there. Not so with Taming the Flames: Elementals are a much more formidable opponent.

    Seriously, we've run The Pit a dozen times on elite, with no xp penalty, without using a shrine, and rarely do we ever have a death. Although one time TWO evasion builds were killed in a room and then raised. But it could have been avoided if we weren't trying to be too stingy with our mana to cast protections.

    Anyway, we could 4 man the pit on elite with a decent group in The Core. And we wouldn't bat an eye if we had to do it without a rogue. But no one in this guild (except me because I have characters to BURN) would ever dream of attempting Taming the Flames on elite with anything less than a full, balanced party.

    Proof is in the Poison is rather easy when compared to Taming the Flames. We ran it on elite in The Core with an enchanter archmage and supporting cast and it was about as easy as Irestone elite.
    Last edited by Duncani_Daho; 11-29-2010 at 06:02 AM.
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  5. #45

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    Taming the flames was only tense after I got myself in a bad spot after trying to draw aoe aggro away from the party. RedStout is my intimitank. He's got an unbuffed AC of 32, 26 intim, and 20 dr in light armor. If you have combat expertise, shield blocking, and mobility I can easily hit an ac of 43, unbuffed, reflex save is 18ish unbuffed. The cool thing about mobility is that the ac bonus stays until you take an action after tumbling. So if you are shield block and tumble backward and then don't move, you keep your +4 mobility ac bonus.

    Note arcane support helped tremendously in certain parts as well.

  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    A guy in our guild who is currently on hiatus probably hit the nail on the head. Way, way, way back the spell Protection from Energy used to be unlimited protection vs. that elemental damage. Later, the spell was nerfed so that after a certain number of points was consumed, the protection wore off. In his opinion, and I think he might be right, the quest was ranked only at a level 6 (and then upgraded to a level 7 not long ago) because the Dev's assumed that the entire party would PROBABLY have complete immunity from fire when they ran the quest via Protection from Energy: Fire.

    But after the nerf, it doesn't take much for the mobs to wear down the points of protection provided by the spell. In The Core we could never run with Protection from Fire up (too resource intensive) and it's hard enough keeping Resist Energy up for the entire party.

    I'll just say in The Core not long ago we tried running it on hard with a good group (bard, wizzie, wf tank, halfling monk, drow cleric, 1 more) and ran out of there with our tail between our legs. Resist 20 was just not cutting it, and we almost wiped.

    If you know your way around The Pit, the mobs themselves do not present much of a danger. Unlike a lot of foes in Taming the Flames, trogs are a relatively soft target: they are vulnerable to sneak attack, stunning, trip, hold person, among others. Furthermore, they are evil, so paladins are on parade in there. Not so with Taming the Flames: Elementals are a much more formidable opponent.

    Seriously, we've run The Pit a dozen times on elite, with no xp penalty, without using a shrine, and rarely do we ever have a death. Although one time TWO evasion builds were killed in a room and then raised. But it could have been avoided if we weren't trying to be too stingy with our mana to cast protections.

    Anyway, we could 4 man the pit on elite with a decent group in The Core. And we wouldn't bat an eye if we had to do it without a rogue. But no one in this guild (except me because I have characters to BURN) would ever dream of attempting Taming the Flames on elite with anything less than a full, balanced party.
    As a virgin run or a no spoiler far less metagamed run (Vets who barely ever run it) I think youre right, however, once we bring metagaming into the picture, this quest can be done alot easier than many PDers think. Without breaking out a complete spoiler, I will say that after the nerf to protection from elements, players developed a strategy to run that quest that works pretty well. The issue of course is since PDers dont like spoilers, the experienced players cant narrate for the less experienced, and if everyone isnt on the same page with the popular strategy, people WILL get smoked.

    The same experienced crew can jump their way through the pit knowing all the shortcuts, unless you are not spoiling to the point where you make the less experienced people figure it out while you stand there and grin while they scratch their heads when they enter certain rooms. If this is the case, I dont believe the pit would be so easy, as it is when the person who knows what to do just does it and the group moves on. Even if they dont spoil, they can still get levers and valves quickly themselves, which consumes less resources than waiting for the less experienced cats to figure out they they need to throw levers, and where they need to go to do so.

    Where I think the major difference is, is that in the pit, you get alot more break time or downtime, where you can sit in an empty hall and go over your resources, tally up whats left to do etc. where in taming the flames, there isnt many times where you can sit idle and converse about those issues.

    Im still not sure there is a 40% difference in difficulty there.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #47
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I should mention when I do a quest I almost always set out for all optionals. That can make some quests a lot longer. In the case of The Pit, with folks who haven't been in there much, it can double the time. Jepto's elite pit run took three hours.
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  8. #48

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    Yes, Chai, but the rule against spoiling doesn't mean that inexperienced players have to figure everything out. If I can into the Pit and enter a room and see levers and wheels or a puzzle or something, I don't have to play dumb. I set about solving the puzzle, turning the wheels, etc.

    What I am restricted from doing is saying, "Ok, when we get into this next room, the ranger should kite around the Preacher and..." Can't do. Taming the Flames has a lot more surprises than the Pit too. There is nothing to see until suddenly WHAM!

    But I see your point about prior knowledge making Taming the Flames easier. I think I have a good idea where to go and to keep the bus moving, so to speak. But it's still just difficult. Wouldn't you rather fight troglodytes than elementals?

    Three hours is excessively long Parvo. If a newbie is leading the party because he is the rogue, then I could see it taking over an hour. But an elite run of The Pit, getting every bonus and looting every chest (all mobs are not technically called optionals), takes about an hour.
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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I should mention when I do a quest I almost always set out for all optionals. That can make some quests a lot longer. In the case of The Pit, with folks who haven't been in there much, it can double the time. Jepto's elite pit run took three hours.
    I am guessing that you did NOT do all the optionals in your Taming the Flames elite run, am I right?
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  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Yes, Chai, but the rule against spoiling doesn't mean that inexperienced players have to figure everything out. If I can into the Pit and enter a room and see levers and wheels or a puzzle or something, I don't have to play dumb. I set about solving the puzzle, turning the wheels, etc.
    Yeah, this is a huge issue. In a "worse case scenario" where one person that knows whats up, I have seen situations where that person does most if not all of the "mario bros" work to throw the levers at the top. Due to this, there are people who have run the pit 15 times and still have no idea where those levers are located, what to do in what rooms, etc. I see this as being as bad of an issue as someone who narrates what everyone is going to do, including where and when. If those people run the pit without the person who did all the work for their 16th run, they dont know what to do or where to go.

    To resolve this issue, I believe in telling people what I am doing if I feel its needed. This is not spoiling. "I am going to throw the lever at the top, whose coming with me?" is alot different than "you 2 stay here while me and this person go up top - there are traps here and here, fire elementals are going to pop out, if you kill them they will just respawn" etc.

    This way, we dont have a bunch of people running around who always depend on the same people to lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    What I am restricted from doing is saying, "Ok, when we get into this next room, the ranger should kite around the Preacher and..." Can't do. Taming the Flames has a lot more surprises than the Pit too. There is nothing to see until suddenly WHAM!
    Depends on the experience level of the players as far as the number of "surprises". I think the pit is more frustrating to figure out, where taming the flames is more damage intensive right from the get go. The issue here is in the pit, people will get complacent, because there isnt a hard fight for a decent period of time - its just alot of running and figuring stuff out, and when they finally do come to one of the big fights, its a matter of how much people are paying attention. If they arent, BLAM!!, W7F just happened?

    The other issue with the pit is people getting separated. "Oh man guys I fell off the ledge, how do I get back to you. It looks like you are in here on the completely useless map" (heh) - The player gets singled out, triggers one of the hard fights by accident, and winds up on korthos wearing a pair of clown shoes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    But I see your point about prior knowledge making Taming the Flames easier. I think I have a good idea where to go and to keep the bus moving, so to speak. But it's still just difficult. Wouldn't you rather fight troglodytes than elementals?
    Depends. Am I a low level monk with cloth armor but a decent reflex save, or am I a tank with high AC, no evasion, and a low reflex save? Its all situational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Three hours is excessively long Parvo. If a newbie is leading the party because he is the rogue, then I could see it taking over an hour. But an elite run of The Pit, getting every bonus and looting every chest (all mobs are not technically called optionals), takes about an hour.
    3 hours.... At some point, there is a distinction that has to made between playing the quest, and gaming the AI. It depends though. If you are "crawling" the pit, with no one who knows the quest, it might take you that long to figure it all out.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #51
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    ...Three hours is excessively long Parvo. If a newbie is leading the party because he is the rogue, then I could see it taking over an hour. But an elite run of The Pit, getting every bonus and looting every chest (all mobs are not technically called optionals), takes about an hour.
    Just because I can run it faster doesn't mean I should run it faster. There are many justifications for running slower, but it's not a debate I care to satisfy.
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  12. #52
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    I am guessing that you did NOT do all the optionals in your Taming the Flames elite run, am I right?
    There was one optional we didn't complete.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Just because I can run it faster doesn't mean I should run it faster. There are many justifications for running slower, but it's not a debate I care to satisfy.
    I believe the longest duration for a single quest (not a series) in The Core was our run not too long ago in Bring Me The Head of Ghola-fan! (on hard). I believe it took us just over two hours. If you add in the run through the Restless Isles, it was probably around 2.5 hours.

    It was a guild first. We went in with 5 and then had a death and raise (Thweetrock). Because it was a fairly slow grind through an unfamiliar quest, we decided not to recall and press on with four. Judging from people's opinions later, it was one of their favorite quests. No argument from me. The design has always been a favorite.
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  14. #54
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    I believe the longest duration for a single quest (not a series) in The Core was our run not too long ago in Bring Me The Head of Ghola-fan! (on hard). I believe it took us just over two hours. If you add in the run through the Restless Isles, it was probably around 2.5 hours.

    It was a guild first. We went in with 5 and then had a death and raise (Thweetrock). Because it was a fairly slow grind through an unfamiliar quest, we decided not to recall and press on with four. Judging from people's opinions later, it was one of their favorite quests. No argument from me. The design has always been a favorite.
    So, how would you feel if there was someone in that group who knew the quest in and out, capable of soloing it, and they moved ahead very quickly, completing in 30-45 minutes, with the rest of the group barely being able to keep up? When you ask them to slow down, they say, "2.5 hours is excessive."

    If your policy is to quest as fast as personally possible while remaining safe, you may disenfranchise players who enjoy the adventure and discovery. Your puzzle example is a good one. More often than not, when I get to a puzzle I know well, I'll pause and ask, "has anyone not done this before? Would you like to complete it?" Given the opportunity, many will try it. The way I see it, if they wanted to tag along watching someone else complete the game from memory, they could do that in PUGs.

    I'm guessing the difference between groups is familiarity, not only with the quest but each other. Your 1 hour Pit elite group was probably mostly folks you've known for years and completed The Pit with multiple times. If that was the case for my group, we would have moved faster too.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    So, how would you feel if there was someone in that group who knew the quest in and out, capable of soloing it, and they moved ahead very quickly, completing in 30-45 minutes, with the rest of the group barely being able to keep up? When you ask them to slow down, they say, "2.5 hours is excessive."
    I see your point of view on this, but I also see the other side as well. Where do you draw the line between running the quest and gaming the AI? Again you are bantering that it is either your way, or their policy must be to get it done as fast as possible. You are not seeing the entire huge gray area that lies in between the two.

    Again, I say its all situational. The pit is a quest I used to take all the cocky ex WOW and ex EQ players into and /grin when they tried to figure it out. This quest among others clearly illustrates that D&D is not just all hack and slash linear questing where you destroy mobs and gain xp. Those quests do exist in DDO, but the pit isnt one of them. It would take a group whose MMO education started with a hack and slash game 3+ hours to learn the quest.

    I also believe in prompting and not spoiling when I am one of the more experienced players. "quest journal says we need to do (insert quest objective here) in this room, and turning the valves on the bottom here creates a jet stream that shoots me upward" - It doesnt take 3 or 4 hours to prompt people to start figuring things out without spoiling and narrating the entire quest. To understand this, we have to stop thinking in terms of black and white (either its 3 hours or you are trying to do it as fast as possible) and start seeing the gray area.

    On a side note, those same ex WOW and ex EQ players do better in taming the flames than they do in the pit, because damage mitigation is something they clearly understand, where figuring out theres a lever at the top of a huge mario bros pipe obsticle course that needs to be pulled in a room in a non linear dungeon is not: - At least not until I run them through the ringer once or twice.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #56
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Some players just aren't good at what The Pit asks you to do.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105812/

    Spoiling aside, this can add considerable time. But that doesn't matter. It makes no difference how long it takes. We enjoyed completing a difficult quest without losses. I'm perfectly happy leaving the time trials to others who enjoy that.
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    So, how would you feel if there was someone in that group who knew the quest in and out, capable of soloing it, and they moved ahead very quickly, completing in 30-45 minutes, with the rest of the group barely being able to keep up? When you ask them to slow down, they say, "2.5 hours is excessive."

    If your policy is to quest as fast as personally possible while remaining safe, you may disenfranchise players who enjoy the adventure and discovery. Your puzzle example is a good one. More often than not, when I get to a puzzle I know well, I'll pause and ask, "has anyone not done this before? Would you like to complete it?" Given the opportunity, many will try it. The way I see it, if they wanted to tag along watching someone else complete the game from memory, they could do that in PUGs.

    I'm guessing the difference between groups is familiarity, not only with the quest but each other. Your 1 hour Pit elite group was probably mostly folks you've known for years and completed The Pit with multiple times. If that was the case for my group, we would have moved faster too.
    Someone who is running ahead in Bring Me the Head of Ghola-fan is going to die. And I have never met one who would be willing to duo it on hard in The Core. So your example is fatuous. Running too fast is just not a problem in a hardcore PD guild. The difficulty naturally slows you down because it's too risky running very fast.

    But on the other side of the coin, when I see someone say "The Pit elite took us 3 hours," my natural reaction is to think, "That's just not normal." With more details added-- new players unfamiliar with the quest, people got separated and lost, etc-- it could make sense. But I think three hours seems abnormally long. It's not a criticism, just a clarification by me for others reading the posts about what another PD player thinks of that quest.

    Regarding the other assumption-- new players just watch us "solve the game" and only occassionally swing an ax or something-- my usual mode is to leave puzzles for other players since I suck at that kind of thing. My brain just isn't wired for it. But if I enter a room and see a yellow rune with a symbol under it, and across the room I see a yellow wheel, I will bring that to the attention of others. I try to play it so that my character is no different from being a very perceptive character in pen and paper.

    My thought on speed: don't play dumb, use your full ability with zero spoiling, and run as quickly as safety will permit. Buffs are burning...
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  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Some players just aren't good at what The Pit asks you to do.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105812/

    Spoiling aside, this can add considerable time. But that doesn't matter. It makes no difference how long it takes. We enjoyed completing a difficult quest without losses. I'm perfectly happy leaving the time trials to others who enjoy that.
    One of the reasons I choose to talk about this topic is to clarify a misunderstanding that I see some people perpetuate about permadeath play. And I'm not talking about Parvo-- it's usually people who are unfamiliar with PD or tried it once for a week or something.

    The myth is: PD is a very slow, careful crawling through quests and the group is ultra-meticulous. They just can't imagine a completion in The Core taking roughly the same amount of time as a pug group running it (often because some players are sloppy, uncooperative, and die). A run through Stormcleave in The Core (getting every bonus) probably doesn't take much longer than the typical pug group.

    Our virgin runs of The Carnival of Shadows, Sentinels, Red Fens, and Diplomatic Impunity also probably weren't much longer than pug runs, and probably shorter than their if they were sloppy, uncooperative, and died a bunch.

    The myth is bunk: we don't run too fast or too slow. If it is slow it's because the encounters are fairly brutal and we have our hands full. And the quest is probably new or unfamiliar to us (aka The Keepers Sanctuary). If it is fast it's because we are very familiar with the quest, employ the right strategies, and practice good teamwork.
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  19. #59
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    I disagree in moving as fast as safety allows. While the example of Ghola Fan may be fartous , it's realistic that you are in a quest that can be solo'ed or duo'ed, yet have a larger party. If one or two strong characters charge ahead and do all the killing, it makes for a boring tag-along for others. What if they also have a strong character, but are simply not as practiced at the quest? In my opinion, the best pace is one where everyone has an opportunity to contribute. It encourages newer players, it helps keep everyone vigilant and less dependant on the veterans. Sometimes the difficulty of the quest dictates this and sometimes it doesn't. When the difficulty doesn't dictate every member play their top game, that's a perfect time to let the less experienced players take control of the pace. Let them start making impactful decisions while experiencing the game in a mode of discovery.

    None of this is to say we don't move fast. When there is a team of expereinced permadeath players with a mindset of leveling fast, I don't think most "normal" players could keep up. Afterall, look no further than Jepto here. He's done nothing but elite once-and-done. About half my sessions are spent playing other characters. A lot of times there are no groups avaialble for the specific path he's taking. Yet, it's taken less than a month to aquire enough XP for level ten and gain 1151 favor. In the grand scheme of things, that's fast.
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    Even if a Hero is familiar with the adventure, I prefer to take always the slow path. It's very painful to loose a Hero, and I prefer to cut all the risks from the time factor. Besides its better to get used around with slow movements to tougher challenges!

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