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  1. #21
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    It seems to me they should go all until the end. Noone should join later the Party even if Heroes die. But that's only my opinion.
    However I think the Party should start with 12 initial Heroes. The Heroes were interspersed in the Party. There is enough XP for all. And when doing Raids all adventure.

  2. #22
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Last edited by parvo; 12-13-2010 at 10:51 PM.
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  3. #23
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    Some quests are much more resources intensive than others. So at a given point the Party will be faced with using more resources than looting. But then you can manage with other ones less intensive.
    You are level 3, at level 5/6 rolling will warm up!

  4. #24
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Last edited by parvo; 12-13-2010 at 10:52 PM.
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  5. #25
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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  6. #26
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    May be it would be interesting to get a brief update of each Hero corcerning Class levels and useful acquired gear.

    At level 3 elite big challenge will be Swiped Signet!

  7. #27
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddobard1 View Post
    May be it would be interesting to get a brief update of each Hero corcerning Class levels and useful acquired gear.

    At level 3 elite big challenge will be Swiped Signet!
    We have a few +1 and +2 items. Nothing spectacular. My bards best item is eternal acid splash wand. Losh was excited to find two mage armor wands.

    While I agree Swiped Signet can be a challenge if played poorly, it won't be for this group.
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  8. #28
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Just curious - but I assume you're far more ... patient ... and take your time, right? Move up a bit, scout, draw folks, eliminate them in small groups, etc.?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Just curious - but I assume you're far more ... patient ... and take your time, right? Move up a bit, scout, draw folks, eliminate them in small groups, etc.?
    Yes, in PD play you can expect things to go really slow (I think I remember the deleras chain took us over 3 hours to complete once). Patience is important as when you do something silly, things can go bad. It is never pretty when someone is incap or dying asking for heals, and you feel bad when you make someone else re-roll (it is usually a quest-killing moment).

    Needless to say, people use more advanced tactics then normal play to do things that most PUG's would consider to be impossible. Patience and the right mix of spells/skills/teamwork usually makes things a rewarding and death-free experience.

    Expect to see the use of stealth, bluff, sound pulls/range weapons which differs greatly from normal play (on top of crappy gear and limited resources).

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by caution View Post
    Yes, in PD play you can expect things to go really slow (I think I remember the deleras chain took us over 3 hours to complete once). Patience is important as when you do something silly, things can go bad. It is never pretty when someone is incap or dying asking for heals, and you feel bad when you make someone else re-roll (it is usually a quest-killing moment).

    Needless to say, people use more advanced tactics then normal play to do things that most PUG's would consider to be impossible. Patience and the right mix of spells/skills/teamwork usually makes things a rewarding and death-free experience.

    Expect to see the use of stealth, bluff, sound pulls/range weapons which differs greatly from normal play (on top of crappy gear and limited resources).
    Bluff and sound pulling are not the only tactics employed in tough PD quests. One suggestion spell is usually enough to create chaos among foes and buy us enough time to take down enemy casters and mop up the rest.

    Another favorite tactic of mine, since I love playing bards: fascinate the crowd. They rarely ever save. Immobilize foes, chop chop, move on.

    By the way, the songs are so powerful, it's another reason why I think it's more exciting to run without shrines. A level 8 bard has around 11 songs? If there are 2 shrines, now that bard has 33 songs to work with. Skilled players do not need that many songs. Bring in 11 and work with what you have. For the very long quests, especially at higher levels, you should do some treasure hunting and seek out that rapier from House Deneith Sentinel quests. It will be a great help at higher levels when the quests can become marathon-like. My two cents anyway...
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  11. #31
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Just curious - but I assume you're far more ... patient ... and take your time, right? Move up a bit, scout, draw folks, eliminate them in small groups, etc.?
    You might be surprised how fast we can safely move through familiar content, but yes, we generally scout and such. If you learn nothing else from PD play, the simple lesson of playing your character like it's an adventurer will serve you well. Play like a child entering a haunted house. First look at the outside of the house for clues of what might be inside. Listen carefully to oratory warnings. Once inside, tread warily with all senses keenly attuned for any danger. If you are surprised, react quickly. Make instant decisions of fight or flight. The mind is focused on the moment. Time becomes meaningless.
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  12. #32
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Bluff and sound pulling are not the only tactics employed in tough PD quests. One suggestion spell is usually enough to create chaos among foes and buy us enough time to take down enemy casters and mop up the rest.

    Another favorite tactic of mine, since I love playing bards: fascinate the crowd. They rarely ever save. Immobilize foes, chop chop, move on.

    By the way, the songs are so powerful, it's another reason why I think it's more exciting to run without shrines. A level 8 bard has around 11 songs? If there are 2 shrines, now that bard has 33 songs to work with. Skilled players do not need that many songs. Bring in 11 and work with what you have. For the very long quests, especially at higher levels, you should do some treasure hunting and seek out that rapier from House Deneith Sentinel quests. It will be a great help at higher levels when the quests can become marathon-like. My two cents anyway...
    It's a big change that will eventually be forgotten, but the de-bounce timer for aggro is huge. Most mobs take so long to switch that they are hacked apart before they react to the hacker. Except for diplomacy, (which is now painfully slow), the debounce timer is a big advantage for players.

    I hope to use fascinate more. It will give me something to do besides pew pew acid spash. Until higher levels, Qepto plays a minimal role.
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  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    It's a big change that will eventually be forgotten, but the de-bounce timer for aggro is huge. Most mobs take so long to switch that they are hacked apart before they react to the hacker. Except for diplomacy, (which is now painfully slow), the debounce timer is a big advantage for players.

    I hope to use fascinate more. It will give me something to do besides pew pew acid spash. Until higher levels, Qepto plays a minimal role.
    I fully agree about that aggro timer. I think they slowed it down due to the negative effect a "quick debounce" timer had on lag. Now, a rogue can get behind a mob and tear it up pretty quickly, but before you could expect a couple of big backstabs and then watch out! The mobs would turn on you quickly.

    Another commonly used tactic in PD play: archer or ranged combat specialist gets aggro against that ogre down the hall. He dumps several arrows into him before he closes in on the party. The ogre has a lot of hitpoints, so the arrows only brought him down to about 3/4 health. It doesn't matter-- that ogre is dead. He has no chance to react to the kensai with a greatax, the rogue's rapier, etc. because the ogre won't switch aggro away from the initally ranged attack fast enough.
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  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Another commonly used tactic in PD play: archer or ranged combat specialist gets aggro against that ogre down the hall. He dumps several arrows into him before he closes in on the party. The ogre has a lot of hitpoints, so the arrows only brought him down to about 3/4 health. It doesn't matter-- that ogre is dead. He has no chance to react to the kensai with a greatax, the rogue's rapier, etc. because the ogre won't switch aggro away from the initally ranged attack fast enough.
    I'm a fan of that, as well.

    On my monk its really just not fair for the mobs:

    Stunning fist = instant death.
    Touch of Death = instant death.
    Unbalancing Strike = +3d6+4 damage per swing = instant death.

    What you are undead?

    Handwraps of Disruption = instant death.

    You are an uncrittable elemental?

    TWF Shortswords (cursespewing and banishing) = almost instant death.


    I think the PUG mentality is that DPS is king. (and it is pretty freaking important.)

    I think the PD mentality is Crowd Control is king.
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  15. #35
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    Another tactic is to range the Foes and keep ranged combat all the time (New Ringleader, Irestone, Wildernesses, etc.) 100% free of taking damage!

    I am able to figure which war drived Adventurers to take Resist Potions in Butcher's Path. It's a really nasty fight, and a King slayer in Pugs.

  16. #36
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talltale-Storyteller View Post
    I'm a fan of that, as well.

    On my monk its really just not fair for the mobs:

    Stunning fist = instant death.
    Touch of Death = instant death.
    Unbalancing Strike = +3d6+4 damage per swing = instant death.

    What you are undead?

    Handwraps of Disruption = instant death.

    You are an uncrittable elemental?

    TWF Shortswords (cursespewing and banishing) = almost instant death.
    All of the insta death stuff starts to fail alot more the higher level you get. At level 12, running around the desert with disrupters is pure awesome sauce on a monk. By like level 17, you will find beating undead down to be less time consuming because most mobs will make saves repeatedly and the DC of the effect onthe weapon is too low. Many mobs will be using deathward as well, or buff themselves with it the minute they see you, so vorpals, banishers, and such are rotting in your backpack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talltale-Storyteller View Post
    I think the PUG mentality is that DPS is king. (and it is pretty freaking important.)

    I think the PD mentality is Crowd Control is king.
    DPS never fails. Its just a matter of if its more convenient to use DPS -vs- use conditional weapon effects. I see many people running around amrath with vorpals, which is fine, if their toon cant kill a mob with DPS in less than 20 swings. If I am playing a barbarian, completely hulked out he is doing 500+ points of critical damage on a nat 19 or a nat 20. It doesnt generally take 20 swings to kill something. Even in PD a high level barb will have ~50s maintainable str score.

    Banishment no longer works there. Stunning is awesome because it ramps up the DPS for a fast kill. Touch of death is still good DPS but isnt insta - death at higher levels. Mass holds rule for obvious reasons.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    All of the insta death stuff starts to fail alot more the higher level you get. At level 12, running around the desert with disrupters is pure awesome sauce on a monk. By like level 17, you will find beating undead down to be less time consuming because most mobs will make saves repeatedly and the DC of the effect onthe weapon is too low. Many mobs will be using deathward as well, or buff themselves with it the minute they see you, so vorpals, banishers, and such are rotting in your backpack.



    DPS never fails. Its just a matter of if its more convenient to use DPS -vs- use conditional weapon effects. I see many people running around amrath with vorpals, which is fine, if their toon cant kill a mob with DPS in less than 20 swings. If I am playing a barbarian, completely hulked out he is doing 500+ points of critical damage on a nat 19 or a nat 20. It doesnt generally take 20 swings to kill something. Even in PD a high level barb will have ~50s maintainable str score.

    Banishment no longer works there. Stunning is awesome because it ramps up the DPS for a fast kill. Touch of death is still good DPS but isnt insta - death at higher levels. Mass holds rule for obvious reasons.
    I'm being facetious, by Instant, I really just mean so quickly the enemy is no real threat to me.
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talltale-Storyteller View Post
    I'm a fan of that, as well.

    On my monk its really just not fair for the mobs:

    Stunning fist = instant death.
    Touch of Death = instant death.
    Unbalancing Strike = +3d6+4 damage per swing = instant death.

    What you are undead?

    Handwraps of Disruption = instant death.

    You are an uncrittable elemental?

    TWF Shortswords (cursespewing and banishing) = almost instant death.


    I think the PUG mentality is that DPS is king. (and it is pretty freaking important.)

    I think the PD mentality is Crowd Control is king.
    Experienced players know how to maximize their efforts and find the course of least resistance. But isn't all of what you wrote in this post a good argument for severely restricting how characters can get loot in a PD guild?

    I have a level 13 monk in The Core-- Mozeze-- and he is loaded with good loot but nothing approaches a disruptor, or metalline of pure good, nor does he have wraps of stunning. That being said, I feel fairly confident when I'm in the middle of combat but it's an anxious confidence... in quests at his level, he could end up in a sticky situation fast.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Experienced players know how to maximize their efforts and find the course of least resistance. But isn't all of what you wrote in this post a good argument for severely restricting how characters can get loot in a PD guild?
    Yes and no.

    All of that stuff doesnt give players the advantage many will say it does. Doing the math, if I can kill a mob in less than 20 hits, I dont need vorpals. If you get a disruptor at 10 its great, but fall into that trap and its worse than not having it. Soon, undead will start making saves on everything but a 1. The average number of times you have to hit undead to kill them again becomes 20 like a vorpal. Even in the desert which is ~12ish, I can kill undead much faster than 20 swings - especially on a light monk.

    Vorpals come into play more often later in the game, where finesse builds will have a harder time killing something in less than 20 hits. A monk with their stun is still better off with stunning wraps in most cases. A rogue assassin can vorp at 18+ sans aggro anyhow. Who does that leave for finesse builds again? Other rogues?

    So yes you can make somewhat of a case for gear restriction. I can also make a case for allowing players to fall into that comfort zone trap, and seeing how they react when their often relied apon method of killing mobs fails due to the level of difficulty being ramped up exponentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    I have a level 13 monk in The Core-- Mozeze-- and he is loaded with good loot but nothing approaches a disruptor, or metalline of pure good, nor does he have wraps of stunning. That being said, I feel fairly confident when I'm in the middle of combat but it's an anxious confidence... in quests at his level, he could end up in a sticky situation fast.
    A monk needs ghost touch, pure good, and stunning. Anything else is icing on the cake. I pulled spectral gloves out of offering of blood at level on elite, and as an end reward for a GH quest I got holy stunning +6 wraps. When do I need to change those out again? Maybe when I pull holy with stunning + something higher than 6, heh.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40

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    Ok I apologize for the rabbit trail.

    The disruptors and banishers was mostly a joke. Though I do have them, but let me tell you the Mabar wraps are WAY better than the disruptor set, which was a gift from another guildie.

    I don't need stunning handwraps to land stunning fist. I also don't always need stunning fist.

    Stunning Fist = fort save. I use this almost exclusively on casters - because they are the biggest threat and the least likely to save.

    Unbalancing Strike = reflex save (or balance check?) I use this on the heavy armor and tough but clumsy types.

    Touch of death I use on everything else.


    My point was that the dps when i get SA is so good that I usually do combat like this:

    Stun caster, kill caster.
    Unbalance biggest melee, kill him.
    Stun next biggest threat, etc...

    I was really just emphasizing CC.


    Now as far as gear.

    The pieces of gear I listed in my last post are nifty to have, but believe me - my touch of death will kill an elemental infinitely faster than my banishers. And the Mabar wraps ( which i only was allowed to level to level 8 by our guild rules) do 3d6 on undead, which coincidentally is how much SA damage I am losing. WAY better than disruptors on everything except high HP undead with low saves.

    Now you mention gear restrictions. One of my BEST handwraps are +1 Shocking burst HW od Gr. Dragon Bane

    Pulled from a GH quest, Prison of the Planes iirc, as an end reward.

    My main sets of wraps are +3 holy of Stunning +2 and +4 Flaming of bleeding.

    Only one of those came off of the AH, and let me tell you that my gear would not protect me from being a bad player, or from grouping with bad players.
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