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  1. #1

    Default Challenge Rating

    I will start keeping a journal of quests, no spoilers, with a challenge rating to reflect the difficulty of these quests post-Update 9. My perspective derives from The Core rules, the basics of which are: no shrining, no xp penalty for being overlevel, no AH or brokers purchase, no House buffs, no trading anything to anyone except via chest, no repeating quests, no talking about what is coming up in a quest, no enhancement-based raise dead, plus others.

    Rank will be on a scale of 1 - 10. 1 is easy-peasy; 10 is "you won't complete this quest twice in 10 runs." Working assumption: most players in the quest know it well. If a new player was with others who also didn't know the quest well, I suppose the challenge rating could be significantly higher.

    1. Caverns of Korromar, elite, full party of character levels 11, 11, 11, 11, 10, 8. Thanks to Penx for skipping hard difficulty to run with us.

    Challenge rating: 3.

    We barely got scratched, blew through this long quest like a stiff wind, and our tank chopped down the boss in no time at all.


    2. Redwillow, elite, 5-man party of character levels 8, 7, 7, 7, 6. Our 5th man joined us as we were taking the collected items back to Redwillow's camp. Some nasty fights with certain monsters who can not be intimidated. They hit consistently and hard. Then came the battle with the giants which is always interesting in Core runs.

    Challenge rating: 7.


    3. Waterworks, elite, full party, levels 4-6. Challenge rating 2.

    4. Catacombs, elite, 5-man group, levels 4-6. Challenge rating 2.

    5. Sharn, elite, 4-man group, levels 5-7. Challenge rating 2.

    6. Western Threnal, elite, four-man group, character levels 11, 11, 11, 10. I might as well list the character classes specifically since some will assume it was done with a radiant servant, but they would be wrong.

    Dethmed, favored soul 10 / cleric 1.
    Mofeydakin, fighter 4/ rogue 4/ barbarian 3.
    Thweet, wizard 9/ rogue 2.
    Phunksmash, level 10 fighter.

    On elite, part 3 of Western Threnal can be a tough slog at best, and a "hunt you down and cleave you into bits" nightmare at worst. We had a few moments but managed a completion without quaffing too many consummibles. We were all underlevel for the finale.

    Challenge rating: 6.

    Hopefully I'll be able to rank some more soon. It should give interested parties (heya Devs!) the chance to see that we need more nail-biters.
    Last edited by Duncani_Daho; 05-02-2011 at 06:44 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default create Mummy Avenger

    This makes easy fun!

    For the first time ever, I cast the spell Create Undead (level 6 cleric spell) and chose the Mummy Avenger. We were doing C06 elite, 3-man, and I must say I was impressed with this pet's power.

    Mobs in the elite dungeon were being gripped with fear, at times it amounted to a mass hold, and we quickly performed butchery upon our foes.

    Those normally junky inflict wounds wands can be quite handy now-- healing Crusty-- the moniker we bestowed on this new pet.

    Cult of the Six, elite, 3-manned and partially completed (real life), character levels 11, 11, 11. Challenge rating 2.

    Part five would probably be a Challenge rating 5. We'll see when we get the chance to finish it.
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  3. #3

    Default Partycrashers elite

    Ran this about an hour ago and it was easier than the run we had last week. Used up a TON of consummibles on that run: 18 cure mod potions, 28 charges on a cure critical wand, 24 charges on a cure mod wand, and 3-4 elixirs of mnemonic enhancement. And all from one stinking room.

    Better luck this time, with our favored soul Dreadsun completing the quest about about 3/4 his spell points. A lot of the difficulty of this quest comes from a random element that could really drain the resources of a party, not to mention lifes blood.

    Challenge rating: 6.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Have you thought of disallowing the rule of being able to add 1 level for hard and 2 to the quest level for elite, because of the fact that the game allows for this?

    It seems that your ratings for quests that used to be thought of as more difficult in the past are slightly higher than average (at best) where some quests that were thought of as challenging to newbies but not to experienced players have a rating of mostly easy.

    I am curious how you would rate deleras part 1 on elite with a group where 5 is the max level.

    And yes, this rule will seem completely rediculous in instances like Tangleroot where the first quest is level 3 and the last quest is level 7. I still feel taking a group of 9s through there on elite would be rather easy as long as no one walks into a trap.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Have you thought of disallowing the rule of being able to add 1 level for hard and 2 to the quest level for elite, because of the fact that the game allows for this?

    It seems that your ratings for quests that used to be thought of as more difficult in the past are slightly higher than average (at best) where some quests that were thought of as challenging to newbies but not to experienced players have a rating of mostly easy.

    I am curious how you would rate deleras part 1 on elite with a group where 5 is the max level.

    And yes, this rule will seem completely rediculous in instances like Tangleroot where the first quest is level 3 and the last quest is level 7. I still feel taking a group of 9s through there on elite would be rather easy as long as no one walks into a trap.
    Might be a good idea for a static group. For The Core to make a major rule change like that would be a tough sell. And I'm not sure I'd want paint us into a corner by almost REQUIRING groups to be full parties before attempting quests. Naz and I ran part 2 of STK with a level 7 pale master (Mopharaoh) and his halfling thief acrobat/mnk and let me tell you, it doesn't get more exciting than that. It was pre Update 9. Metagame to the max, it was still very challenging.

    The Core rules say we never enter a quest with an xp penalty (the exception being Delera's part 1).
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  6. #6
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    It sounds like the difference in level compared to the quest level affects the challenge and your rating. Could you try them at level or under level? I just want to see if it affects your rating.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Might be a good idea for a static group. For The Core to make a major rule change like that would be a tough sell. And I'm not sure I'd want paint us into a corner by almost REQUIRING groups to be full parties before attempting quests. Naz and I ran part 2 of STK with a level 7 pale master (Mopharaoh) and his halfling thief acrobat/mnk and let me tell you, it doesn't get more exciting than that. It was pre Update 9. Metagame to the max, it was still very challenging.

    The Core rules say we never enter a quest with an xp penalty (the exception being Delera's part 1).
    Yeah, it just seems like the quests you rate higher are still just above average where the quests you rate lower, while you still follow the rules to the letter, are nearing easy peasy.

    I feel the best way to resolve something like that would be to run higher level content on lower level toons than you were running it on previously. Setting it in stone is an issue when you dont have a full party as you pointed out. If you guys had a full group at that level I bet STK wouldnt have been a big deal.

    If guaranteed a full group I think alot of this content that is rated as easy would have to be played with lower level toons, if challenge is the desired goal. This is where I grin and point to some of my previous posts regarding challenge not always being equal for same level quests, and I can cite numerous examples of lower level designated quests that are significantly more challenging than higher level quests.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    It sounds like the difference in level compared to the quest level affects the challenge and your rating. Could you try them at level or under level? I just want to see if it affects your rating.
    Series which start low and end much higher we DO run under level: like Tangleroot, STK, Deleras, Threnal. Tangleroot we usually run elite once and done with level 6 toons. That makes the challenge rating much higher.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah, it just seems like the quests you rate higher are still just above average where the quests you rate lower, while you still follow the rules to the letter, are nearing easy peasy.

    I feel the best way to resolve something like that would be to run higher level content on lower level toons than you were running it on previously. Setting it in stone is an issue when you dont have a full party as you pointed out. If you guys had a full group at that level I bet STK wouldnt have been a big deal.

    If guaranteed a full group I think alot of this content that is rated as easy would have to be played with lower level toons, if challenge is the desired goal. This is where I grin and point to some of my previous posts regarding challenge not always being equal for same level quests, and I can cite numerous examples of lower level designated quests that are significantly more challenging than higher level quests.
    Can't guarentee a full group or even expect it. Right now there are 4 of us in TR elite, and I'm on my level 5 sorc.
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  10. #10
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Ran this about an hour ago and it was easier than the run we had last week. Used up a TON of consummibles on that run: 18 cure mod potions, 28 charges on a cure critical wand, 24 charges on a cure mod wand, and 3-4 elixirs of mnemonic enhancement. And all from one stinking room.

    Better luck this time, with our favored soul Dreadsun completing the quest about about 3/4 his spell points. A lot of the difficulty of this quest comes from a random element that could really drain the resources of a party, not to mention lifes blood.

    Challenge rating: 6.
    If you want similar challange you had before update nine, you'll have to adjust your rules.
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  11. #11
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Have you thought of disallowing the rule of being able to add 1 level for hard and 2 to the quest level for elite, because of the fact that the game allows for this?

    It seems that your ratings for quests that used to be thought of as more difficult in the past are slightly higher than average (at best) where some quests that were thought of as challenging to newbies but not to experienced players have a rating of mostly easy.

    I am curious how you would rate deleras part 1 on elite with a group where 5 is the max level.

    And yes, this rule will seem completely rediculous in instances like Tangleroot where the first quest is level 3 and the last quest is level 7. I still feel taking a group of 9s through there on elite would be rather easy as long as no one walks into a trap.
    The old familiar series quests suffer a design flaw. In MV, we just ignore it and go off the highest part of the quest we intend to complete in succession. I don't want to complicate the rules for one or two poorly designed series. Nor do I want to split the runs up such that we run half of it with level five or six characters and later come back with sevens and eights. I think Mo deals with it differently. Maybe he's already responded. I didn't read on before posting this...
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    The old familiar series quests suffer a design flaw. In MV, we just ignore it and go off the highest part of the quest we intend to complete in succession. I don't want to complicate the rules for one or two poorly designed series. Nor do I want to split the runs up such that we run half of it with level five or six characters and later come back with sevens and eights. I think Mo deals with it differently. Maybe he's already responded. I didn't read on before posting this...
    One or two chains? Maybe its just me but whatever quest I am entering I don't like to be higher level than the level of the quest or I feel like I'm just farming - which is fine for when I DO farm, but not for the rest of the time.

    I farmed the hell out of the quest framework on my level 11 cleric. Never got my circlet though.
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    The old familiar series quests suffer a design flaw. In MV, we just ignore it and go off the highest part of the quest we intend to complete in succession. I don't want to complicate the rules for one or two poorly designed series. Nor do I want to split the runs up such that we run half of it with level five or six characters and later come back with sevens and eights. I think Mo deals with it differently. Maybe he's already responded. I didn't read on before posting this...
    The Core rule is simple. Never take an xp penalty for being over-level. The sole exception is Deleras part 1. That gives us two cracks at Deleras. Tangleroot, STK, WW, Necro, Threnal, etc must be completed under-level. Or you can delay completion of the series and come back later. It complicates completion but keeps the rule simple.

    After all, the term "series" is ambiguous at crucial times. Are bloody crypt and shadow crypt series finales? Is chains of flame a part of the against the demon queen series? What about Desecrated Temple of Vol? Part of the Litany series or a stand alone. And since when is intention clear?

    In order to solve such nagging questions we simplified the Core's rule several months ago: no xp penalty EVER (except Deleras )
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  14. #14
    Community Member wonkey's Avatar
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    A problem in general, especially with series rules, is the variance.

    Ex. Tangleroot elite with a full or near-full group of 6s and 7s is just stupidly easy. Same with Tangleroot on 9s or 10s (I think that's the limit of the last part anyway). And that's the hardest parts. Taking a 9 or 10 into the first couple of tangleroot quests is just butchery.
    On the other hand, VON seems just about right, difficulty-wise, so far (actually, we got our butts kicked in VON2 elite with a group of level 10s. Fortunately, we killed off the encounter that killed us before all our rezzers died, and were able to rez and recall. Looking forward to trying again ).

    You just have to judge for yourself. My experience in MV is that for STK most groups run hard on levels 2-5 or so, and elite on 4-6. TR is often done in the 4-7 range.

    Personally, I'd support breaking up the series into multiple parts done at different times, but this has been discussed and, so far, dismissed.
    Not for everyone. But if you're looking for a fresh experience with a slower pace and tactical play, come check us out at www.mortalvoyage.us You might just like what you see...

  15. #15
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    6. Western Threnal, elite, four-man group, character levels 11, 11, 11, 10. I might as well list the character classes specifically since some will assume it was done with a radiant servant, but they would be wrong.

    Dethmed, favored soul 10 / cleric 1.
    Mofeydakin, fighter 4/ rogue 4/ barbarian 3.
    Thweet, wizard 9/ rogue 2.
    Phunksmash, level 10 fighter.

    On elite, part 3 of Western Threnal can be a tough slog at best, and a "hunt you down and cleave you into bits" nightmare at worst. We had a few moments but managed a completion without quaffing too many consummibles. We were all underlevel for the finale.

    Challenge rating: 6.
    Since Threnal west 3 is an original release quest.. The designers obviously intended it to be ran on elite at lvl10.. I mean that was the cap at the time. The fact that elite quest shave always gotten a +2 lvl mod, isn't to suggest what lvl it's intended to be played by.. It was always originally only for 2 purposes: Additional Loot and XP. Since in the original release, Quest lvl = loot lvl, and +1/2 lvls = extra xp.. It made sense. Ofcourse today with the more arbitrary setting of loot lvls and no more xp bonuses for quests above lvl, it makes less sense.. But the intent hasn't changed.

    So to say
    "We were all underlevel for the finale."
    Seems a bit silly. You were mostly 11.. and probably had equipment far beyond what anyone could of hoped for back in mod0-1 days (Sure your using core rules, but I bet you have korthos sets at least, which is far more powerful then anything that was otherwise easily available back then)
    If anything, you were overleveld for what it was designed for... Thus the somewhat low rating for what was once one of the hardest quests in the game.

    Just kind of reflects how the game got so much easier over the years. Wish they would give us a higher difficulty setting that wasn't restricted to lvl20s only to give us a challenge, without having to resort to meta gaming.

  16. #16
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    ... snip ...
    Just kind of reflects how the game got so much easier over the years. Wish they would give us a higher difficulty setting that wasn't restricted to lvl20s only to give us a challenge, without having to resort to meta gaming.
    It would be nice, but I think at this point int he games life, that is almost impossible to do for the old quests. I mean almost in the 'there would be soo many bugs from doing that' kind of impossible. LOL

    They would need some serious design tools to allow them to go back and make some decent changes to things without reinvesting a huge amount of time on the old content.

    I don't know what their siutation is internally, but they could dedicate a small team to going over content to ensure there is balance and depth. Meaning, a dev, an artist, a desinger, a manager, and a QA person to go through and make changes and check them against the latest main code line of the product. But we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to do that.

    I think if they made a scaleable system that worked, they could add content that could scale properly and handle the players challenge.

    One of the things that strikes me as odd is the whole over powered and underpowered mentality. I agree that it is possible to gear up and be very powerful at low levels. But I think that is the point. You have quests that are a cakewalk for a realtively easilly power geared character, but you also have harderquests for the same character.

    I don't necessarily see this for each level, but they exist. The problem that is see is the correlation to 'difficulty of the actual challenge against geared up players' to exp. Quests that are almost impossible for someone without some stat boosting gear, some spell or physical damage enhancing gear, items to boost skills, and defensive gear against elements or cc, give more exp than an equal level quest where that kind of gear makes it a cakewalk.

    Gear should not equal more exp. Real challenge should. Challenge for you despite your gear should be what gives you exp. But that is something that is very difficult to manage.

    Essentially, someone who has multiple lives and the top gear, should be suceeding on a 2 or higher in every case, 1 or higher in situations where 1 does not equal failure. And as you peel the various 'power ups' from that kind of character, your chances for failure should increase. At the very bottom, you should have a 60-80% chance of failure at least.
    I think this would help create immense challenge for those who are purposefully underpowered (gimp rules).
    A fairly moderate challenge for those who are not optimized.
    An average challenge for those who have either average stats and some gear for their level, poor stats and great gear, poor build and some gear, or great stats and no real special gear.
    A below average challenge for someone with 'ok' stats and some gear (nothing special or handed down), decent stats and some gear.
    An easy challenge for someone with good stats and some gear, great gear and ok stats, or a tr with not so great gear.
    A very easy challenge for anyone who has best of stats and some gear, best of stats and top gear.
    And it should be a cakewalk for a tr with best stats and top gear.

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    The old familiar series quests suffer a design flaw. In MV, we just ignore it and go off the highest part of the quest we intend to complete in succession. I don't want to complicate the rules for one or two poorly designed series. Nor do I want to split the runs up such that we run half of it with level five or six characters and later come back with sevens and eights. I think Mo deals with it differently. Maybe he's already responded. I didn't read on before posting this...
    The point is if we start down the road of "this is what absolute challenge is" and "I can log into your guild and see people not following that rule" - Then I say I can show you that in every single guild. My example still holds true for a number of reasons. I will continue to outline this below.

    Doing deleras part 1 on elite at level 10 in a full group doesnt seem like it would be too challenging, but hey, the absolute unbendable rule of challenge states that the last quest is level 8 and we can add 2 levels for elite so its level 10. This is why I dont believe we can just stick a quantity value on challenge and call it a day.

    Before DA, we used to plow this series on elite with level 6s pre korthos sets, pre FvS, pre radiant servant, most PRE lines werent in the game yet - long story short, not only were the builds less powerful, but the gear was far less powerful as well. Some of this stuff is guaranteed, like the korthos set. Any melee can have +3 to hit just from their gear before they set foot in the harbor. Theres no reason why full groups cant do this stuff now at level on elite (not +2 level)

    I dont believe in the 2 level rule for elite and the 1 level rule for hard. This is in place for XP and loot purposes. The devs are using the level of the quest as a guideline, and if we start using it as an absolute, I will point out the faults in doing so. You want to say that people will gravitate to the path of least resistance? This is what they will gravitate to. Deleras part 1 at level 10. VON 1 at level 11. Tangleroot chain at level 9. Sharn at level 7. Waterworks at level 6. STK at level 7. Threnal at level 12. Korthos at level 5. Necropolis 1 series at level 8. Necropolis 2 series at level 11. Cult of the six series at level 12. Catacombs at level 6. All would be legit under a ruleset where we are allowed to add 2 levels for elite status, and we can run the chain at the highest level of the highest quest in the chain.

    One could level a toon on this content alone. One or two poorly designed series eh? Its alot more than that. I think the design is correct, its the ruleset thats flawed, or the fact that the rules are absolute that is flawed, especially if you are a proponent that people absolutely will gravitate to the path of least resistance. That path is paved in gold making these rules absolute. Please also note that I stopped at necro 2 - there are MANY more instances where this type of absolute rule can be exploited for easy XP leveling. This is what happens when we make absolute rules to govern our play experience, and NOT when we play without them and determine challenge on a case by case basis.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-06-2011 at 03:45 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Since Threnal west 3 is an original release quest.. The designers obviously intended it to be ran on elite at lvl10.. I mean that was the cap at the time. The fact that elite quest shave always gotten a +2 lvl mod, isn't to suggest what lvl it's intended to be played by.. It was always originally only for 2 purposes: Additional Loot and XP. Since in the original release, Quest lvl = loot lvl, and +1/2 lvls = extra xp.. It made sense. Ofcourse today with the more arbitrary setting of loot lvls and no more xp bonuses for quests above lvl, it makes less sense.. But the intent hasn't changed.

    So to say
    "We were all underlevel for the finale."
    Seems a bit silly. You were mostly 11.. and probably had equipment far beyond what anyone could of hoped for back in mod0-1 days (Sure your using core rules, but I bet you have korthos sets at least, which is far more powerful then anything that was otherwise easily available back then)
    If anything, you were overleveld for what it was designed for... Thus the somewhat low rating for what was once one of the hardest quests in the game.

    Just kind of reflects how the game got so much easier over the years. Wish they would give us a higher difficulty setting that wasn't restricted to lvl20s only to give us a challenge, without having to resort to meta gaming.
    Sorry to point out an obvious flaw in your reasoning, but we don't shrine. That quest has wiped PD parties. And it is very long. I stand by the challenge rating.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The point is if we start down the road of "this is what absolute challenge is" and "I can log into your guild and see people not following that rule" - Then I say I can show you that in every single guild. My example still holds true for a number of reasons. I will continue to outline this below.

    Doing deleras part 1 on elite at level 10 in a full group doesnt seem like it would be too challenging, but hey, the absolute unbendable rule of challenge states that the last quest is level 8 and we can add 2 levels for elite so its level 10. This is why I dont believe we can just stick a quantity value on challenge and call it a day.

    Before DA, we used to plow this series on elite with level 6s pre korthos sets, pre FvS, pre radiant servant, most PRE lines werent in the game yet - long story short, not only were the builds less powerful, but the gear was far less powerful as well. Some of this stuff is guaranteed, like the korthos set. Any melee can have +3 to hit just from their gear before they set foot in the harbor. Theres no reason why full groups cant do this stuff now at level on elite (not +2 level)

    I dont believe in the 2 level rule for elite and the 1 level rule for hard. This is in place for XP and loot purposes. The devs are using the level of the quest as a guideline, and if we start using it as an absolute, I will point out the faults in doing so. You want to say that people will gravitate to the path of least resistance? This is what they will gravitate to. Deleras part 1 at level 10. VON 1 at level 11. Tangleroot chain at level 9. Sharn at level 7. Waterworks at level 6. STK at level 7. Threnal at level 12. Korthos at level 5. Necropolis 1 series at level 8. Necropolis 2 series at level 11. Cult of the six series at level 12. Catacombs at level 6. All would be legit under a ruleset where we are allowed to add 2 levels for elite status, and we can run the chain at the highest level of the highest quest in the chain.

    One could level a toon on this content alone. One or two poorly designed series eh? Its alot more than that. I think the design is correct, its the ruleset thats flawed, or the fact that the rules are absolute that is flawed, especially if you are a proponent that people absolutely will gravitate to the path of least resistance. That path is paved in gold making these rules absolute. Please also note that I stopped at necro 2 - there are MANY more instances where this type of absolute rule can be exploited for easy XP leveling. This is what happens when we make absolute rules to govern our play experience, and NOT when we play without them and determine challenge on a case by case basis.
    You got it backwards Chai. And my sense of the game and experience running in The Core tells me that running stuff on elite at the BASE LEVEL of the quest would make questing an impossibility. Given the choice of running Von II on elite with level 8 characters or heading out to Co6, almost all players will just skip the vons.

    Will Von 1-2 be challenging on elite for max level 11 characters who can't shrine? You betcha. Especially so if they are attempting to 4-man it. Its possible in The Core; impossible in your imaginary hardcore guild.

    Von 3-4 on elite with max level 12's? Sounds like a challenge to me, spell pass be damned. Someone who claims that is too easy, please show me how it's done-- risk a toon you have been playing for over a year and show me how it's done in old Von3 on elite without shrining.

    The level of the quest is the level listed on the xp page. Period.
    The Core HC Permadeath Guild
    HC stands for Hard Core
    on Khyber
    thecorehc.home.comcast.net

  20. #20
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    The Core rule is simple. Never take an xp penalty for being over-level. The sole exception is Deleras part 1. That gives us two cracks at Deleras. Tangleroot, STK, WW, Necro, Threnal, etc must be completed under-level. Or you can delay completion of the series and come back later. It complicates completion but keeps the rule simple.

    After all, the term "series" is ambiguous at crucial times. Are bloody crypt and shadow crypt series finales? Is chains of flame a part of the against the demon queen series? What about Desecrated Temple of Vol? Part of the Litany series or a stand alone. And since when is intention clear?

    In order to solve such nagging questions we simplified the Core's rule several months ago: no xp penalty EVER (except Deleras )
    The Delera's exception makes perfect sense to me. It's really just compensation for poor design. Sucks that we have to have a rule for it. Maybe Turb will someday correct it.
    M O R T A L V O Y A G E
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