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  1. #41
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joneb1999 View Post
    [*]The Op is new to the game. He doesnt have 32 point build available so Im assuming he wont be buying tomes so in this case I made the best build for him without tomes figured in.
    It may have been a long time ago for you, but my first character started less than a year ago. I picked up two +2 tomes just playing the game and leveling up. By the time I hit 20, I had enough PP to buy ~3 more. Assuming +2 tomes is fine.

    [*]He obviously wont have great equipment to start with so thats not figured in either. Because of this and the fact he is new I wouldnt expect him to solo every quest.[*]That one ability increase in charisma is worth 4 in strength. If you play a battle cleric you should know that. Divine might 1 is +2 damage which equals 4 strength. When he was rolling his toon he would have needed to put 6 points into his strength to take it from 16 to 18 to just get +1 more damage. If he added a +2 tome to charisma he would then get Divine Might 2 equalling +4 damage at 10th level, worth 8 strength. Like I said though tomes arent figured in because he wont have the resources for them.
    This last statement is incorrect because DM is not free and contradictory because DM is less valuable in group setting. DM may increase total DPS X% solo, but it will only increase total group DPS by ~X%/6 in a full party. You are much more efficient saving your turns for healing output. Also, even assuming you had infinite turns to spend, +4 damage is NOT equivalent to +8 STR, because to hit is an issue at low to mid levels (yes even with DF and DP).

    On a 28 pt first character with no twink gear, DM is not optimal.

  2. #42
    The Hatchery Habreno's Avatar
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    Agreed with BattleClerics being very difficult at 28 point builds without Drow. I managed to make one with Drow, no past lives, but it wasn't easy. I'll post my starting stats from that just to let you know how it's going, in case you are interested once you manage to get Drow:

    STR: 18 (16 points)
    DEX: 10 (0 points)
    CON: 12 (6 points)
    INT: 10 (0 points)
    WIS: 8 (0 points)
    CHA: 16 (6 points)

    There is a reason I went like this:

    Max STR. To be a BattleCleric, truly, you need to fight. For the most part, this means ignoring healing until you get mass heals, which don't come until level 9 if you don't splash. For me, they are coming at level 14.
    Unless your goal is DM4 (which is not worth it on a first life) you should splash between 2-5 levels; splash up to 8 if you are not getting DM3 (which I will get with a +2 tome)
    I dumped WIS. Yes, this is, in 99.9% of cases, a very bad idea for a Cleric. But I did the math. I'll have level 8 spells; I'll need 18 WIS to cast them. 2 Enhancement + 2 Tome + 6 Item + 8 Base = 18. I'll have the required WIS before I need it.
    Drow: I don't have 32-point builds and quite frankly, don't see a DM3 BattleCleric working as well without it. Yes, this means taking a -2 hit to CON, but 20 HPs at cap is very minor in 99% of cases. I'll be taking at least one Toughness feat, probably 2, to recoup most of that and I get a class Toughness enhancement from the 2 Fighter levels I took, which gave me 2 extra feats.
    DEX: 10 DEX is base for Drow. Same with INT. And CHA, which means I need 6 points there instead of 10.

    Note that I will be able to heal, but will not have many SPs to do it with. Even with items, I'll be lucky to get 1200.

    I do agree that a BattleCleric is not a good first build. Level a normal Cleric up to 20, then try one if you want to.
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  3. #43
    Community Member jkm's Avatar
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    Just to continue the discussion of builds...

    This current life (for the next 9 days or so) I've run a battlecleric.

    36 point Human 18 cleric/2 monk (all level ups into str)

    Str 16/30
    Dex 15/22
    Con 14/22
    Int 8
    Wis 12/22
    Cha 15/24

    L1 - Cleric
    L2,3 - Monk
    L4-20 Cleric
    (Note: you have to take cleric at level 1 and lose the skill points to get the metamagic feats in)

    Feats
    L1 - Extend (or PA), Emp Healing
    L2 - TWF
    L3 - Khopesh, Toughness
    L6 - Quicken
    L9 - ITWF
    L12 - Maximize
    L15 - IC:Slash
    L18 - GTWF

    13 turns total for burst and aura, 1479 spell points for whatever else.

    Hot Key Notes:
    Its essential as a battlecleric that you don't have to use your mouse during combat. During melee your cursor has a nasty habit of disappearing from the screen. These are the spells I hot keyed.

    C = Burst
    Mouse 3 = Heal
    F = MCMW (needed to balance out burst at high levels)
    G = Heal Scroll

    (i have other buttons balanced out to trip and such)

    Basically you use burst at lower levels as a mass heal. Once you get aura you leave the aura on and only burst when they get to half. MCMW once you get to 19/20 and burst isn't filling people in.

    Notes:

    This character had a ton of gear to start with. Much like other melee, these builds are highly dependent on gear.

    Level 11-13 were the worst levels - You don't really have enough spell points to heal and wasting bursts on one character can run you out of mana in a hurry. The worst was trying to solo heal DQ at level. Once you get the radiant aura things become much easier. It helps to smooth out the damage making bursts/mass cures more infrequent.

    You don't do a lot of damage yourself (I'm only critting for a 100 without power attack). However, you raise the net dps of the party by a considerable sum. Its worked well in the shroud, 6 man epics, and elite amrath. I haven't tried it in epic raids where healing is more of a marathon than a sprint though.
    Last edited by jkm; 04-12-2011 at 12:20 PM.

  4. #44
    Community Member artandor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legohaiden View Post
    best way to play a battle cleric.


    Log in, Reroll your toon to a FvS if you want to fight, or a Cleric if you want to heal.



    battle clerics fail 9 times out of 10. (Seen from experiance... very VERY few know how to actually do a real "Battle cleric")
    i agree that many do not know how to play this right. But if you do know, and if you are willing to learn it, then battle cleric is better then a healer in party. ( I am a battle cleric patriot though xD)

    OP: i really enjoyd looking over your builds, i was considering making some f2p newbie bcleric builds for a friend of mine. Was abit hard for me, but as i look at your builds, they seem pretty much like a battle cleric should be

    good job

  5. #45
    Community Member Veileira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legohaiden View Post
    best way to play a battle cleric.

    Log in, Reroll your toon to a FvS if you want to fight, or a Cleric if you want to heal.

    battle clerics fail 9 times out of 10. (Seen from experiance... very VERY few know how to actually do a real "Battle cleric")
    If you're a battlecleric in a group with a fvs, the fvs has 2-3x the sp you do, but YOU'RE expected to be the main healer because you have the cleric icon. The fvs will let you die when you're out of sp or bursts or when everything is on timer but YOU'RE the failure according to the group, not them. You can drink pots to heal people but if anyone dies it's your fault, even if they were around the corner from you, then because you're a battlecleric you should reroll.

    So why aren't people saying "melee fvs is a failure, reroll as a healer" hmm? Because fvs isn't expected to be a nanny. Maybe clerics don't have to be nannies, just like fvs don't have to be nannies.

    I have one battlecleric and one nuker cleric. They can both heal, the nuker just has more sp for bad groups to sponge off. My bard can also heal with mass cures and with scrolls (and just missing scroll for hammer of life muahaha).

    The hard part of being a battlecleric is the melee part. Managing threat, knowing when to back off.

    Healing is in the brain, not the build.
    Proudly Khyberian <3
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    I'm on it. Nerfing the new thing asap.
    Also, nerfing the old thing too, for balance.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veileira View Post
    If you're a battlecleric in a group with a fvs, the fvs has 2-3x the sp you do, but YOU'RE expected to be the main healer because you have the cleric icon. The fvs will let you die when you're out of sp or bursts or when everything is on timer but YOU'RE the failure according to the group, not them. You can drink pots to heal people but if anyone dies it's your fault, even if they were around the corner from you, then because you're a battlecleric you should reroll.

    So why aren't people saying "melee fvs is a failure, reroll as a healer" hmm? Because fvs isn't expected to be a nanny. Maybe clerics don't have to be nannies, just like fvs don't have to be nannies.

    I have one battlecleric and one nuker cleric. They can both heal, the nuker just has more sp for bad groups to sponge off. My bard can also heal with mass cures and with scrolls (and just missing scroll for hammer of life muahaha).

    The hard part of being a battlecleric is the melee part. Managing threat, knowing when to back off.


    Healing is in the brain, not the build.
    I agree. A battle cleric is maybe not the optimal fighter in the game but a well built and kitted out batttle cleric is still pretty good in most quests when running with an equally good group and the healing is fine.

    If a party really needs a high sp dedicated healer in such instances they obviously have other weaknesses and should get such a healer but also keep the battle cleric as obviously they need as much healing as they can get and the decent melee help.

    In a 12 man raid a good battlecleric is always good to have in addition to the main healer or healers.

    Unfortunately this argument will never be resolved because of prejudice, bias, ignorance, learning from bad experience but forgetting good experience. +1
    Last edited by joneb1999; 05-17-2011 at 07:10 PM.
    **********KNIGHTSOFSHADOW ***********
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  7. #47
    Community Member Airgeadlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veileira View Post
    if You're A Battlecleric In A Group With A Fvs, The Fvs Has 2-3x The Sp You Do, But You're Expected To Be The Main Healer Because You Have The Cleric Icon. The Fvs Will Let You Die When You're Out Of Sp Or Bursts Or When Everything Is On Timer But You're The Failure According To The Group, Not Them. You Can Drink Pots To Heal People But If Anyone Dies It's Your Fault, Even If They Were Around The Corner From You, Then Because You're A Battlecleric You Should Reroll.

    So Why Aren't People Saying "melee Fvs Is A Failure, Reroll As A Healer" Hmm? Because Fvs Isn't Expected To Be A Nanny. Maybe Clerics Don't Have To Be Nannies, Just Like Fvs Don't Have To Be Nannies.

    I Have One Battlecleric And One Nuker Cleric. They Can Both Heal, The Nuker Just Has More Sp For Bad Groups To Sponge Off. My Bard Can Also Heal With Mass Cures And With Scrolls (and Just Missing Scroll For Hammer Of Life Muahaha).

    The Hard Part Of Being A Battlecleric Is The Melee Part. Managing Threat, Knowing When To Back Off.

    Healing Is In The Brain, Not The Build.
    +1

    Roberin (TR1 H-Elf Mnk8/Ftr12) - Lawnmoweird (TR4 Hum Mnk 20*) - Brokarg (TR1 Human 16brd/2ftr/2rog) - Lawnmowerman (TR1 H-Elf Mnk2/Ftr18*) Aibhilin (TR1 Human Wiz PM20) Lawnmowiper (WF Art 20) - Selanin (Drow 2mnk/12pal/6ftr) Elissea (H-Elf Rog 20*) * In progress

  8. #48
    Community Member Grimaxe's Avatar
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    I have a Dwarven 18cleric/2 fighter. Its a solid build my favorite aspect about it is that if you know how you are more then capable of fighting and healing. Granted your not going to out DPS a FB barb or a Kensai Fighter but you can heal yourself a whole lot better then they could.
    Former leader of The Dragon Order of Arcanix. currently retired from DDO but making a come back in the nigh future. Mechinized of Kyber

  9. #49
    Community Member zex95966's Avatar
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    My very first character was a dwarven battle cleric. I never regretted it. TWF is to harsh stat-wise on a 28 point no tomes build. This same principle applies to divine might. just focus on strength or wisdom, depending on whether you want to cast later or hit things later.

    mine focused on wisdom and as long as you start with a high strength, you can hit things reliably at low level.

    once you get higher, you will stop one hitting monsters, and casting tends to be more important - but it's up to you, you can go strength instead if you like.

    16-18 strength, 1 point per level in con (12 elf, 16 dwarf or warforged if you have it, 14 everything else) and rest in wisdom.

    Level ups into whatever stat you focus on.

    I rocked it out with my dwarven battle cleric for a long time.

    Enhancement wise, take:
    fighter str+1
    Life magic line maxed
    skill focus heal I and II (requirement for radiant servant prestige which is required unless you want everyone to hate you.)
    toughness enhancements maxed.
    Improved turning +1 (required again, forget about turning - radiant servant makes it worthless as soon as you hit lvl 6 or 7)
    Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
    Cleric Prayer of Life I
    Unyielding Sovereignty (undying call and Vulkoors avatar also work if you have them)
    Divine Vitality

    The rest is up to you, and also depend on your race.

    if dwarf for example you'll want to max toughness enhancements even more, and get con 1 and 2, as well as the axe damage and attack.

    Skill wise, Concentration is a must.
    for a battle cleric UMD is less important, and hard to hit any meaningful levels until much later in the game.
    Diplomacy is a good skill especially when you want to switch to healing people.

    You can get meaningful balance on items and it only makes you get up faster when knocked down, but doesn't prevent the knockdown from happening - which is much less useful.
    one single point into tumble.
    even with half ranks, spot is useful.

    thats in order btw - Concentration is priority, then diplomacy, then balance and then spot.
    if you can't get all of them, just concentration is fine too.

    Feat wise, the other posters (especially OP) is pretty solid.
    You can also drop 1 more cleric level for anything else and not lose much.

    Rogue gives you sneak damage, which increases your damage by quite a bit, and also gives you lots of skill points.
    Barbarian gives you a rage, which with careful use, can be great, and also increases your movement speed, which is even better.

    for FTP, those are the only 2 splashes I would recommend
    then for P2P, I'd say monk for another feat (most useful is probably toughness)

    Lastly if you splash a third class, just make sure to do it not until much later like lvl 20 - you really don't want to delay your cleric much more - it hurts to splash because the difference between a lvl 15 and lvl 18 char is quite a grind - vet players forget this sometimes.
    Homer: "Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen."



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veileira View Post
    If you're a battlecleric in a group with a fvs, the fvs has 2-3x the sp you do, but YOU'RE expected to be the main healer because you have the cleric icon. The fvs will let you die when you're out of sp or bursts or when everything is on timer but YOU'RE the failure according to the group, not them. You can drink pots to heal people but if anyone dies it's your fault, even if they were around the corner from you, then because you're a battlecleric you should reroll.

    So why aren't people saying "melee fvs is a failure, reroll as a healer" hmm? Because fvs isn't expected to be a nanny. Maybe clerics don't have to be nannies, just like fvs don't have to be nannies.

    I have one battlecleric and one nuker cleric. They can both heal, the nuker just has more sp for bad groups to sponge off. My bard can also heal with mass cures and with scrolls (and just missing scroll for hammer of life muahaha).

    The hard part of being a battlecleric is the melee part. Managing threat, knowing when to back off.

    Healing is in the brain, not the build.
    Absolutely true... if you're running with newby pick-up groups. The groups I roll with everyone brings their own heals or they gtfo (or they know how to play as a team). If some novice barbarian runs ahead of the pack so he can pad his kill count and gets... probed by something awful... well that is entirely his fault. The rest of the group laughs at him for being silly, and he laughs at himself for being silly, and we move on. Nobody ever cries "HJEEEEAALL MEEEEEE!!!!!11" because everyone has some idea of what the toon they built and geared can handle.

    See, this is how the game really works: All the people who have enough knowledge about this game and skill in playing to be able to comment on someones healing abilities also do not need a Cleric or FvS to hold their hands through quests. The rest are just mad cause they dont know how to play (or dont know when to run on hard because elite is beyond their abilities).

    Bottom line - If one single player not doing their job caused your entire group to fail, then your entire group sucked. (of course this is not directed at you Veileira, I mean 'you' is in anyone who complains that a 'battlecleric' wiped their group. Just quoting you regarding the part about people who complain about battlehealers)
    Last edited by richieelias27; 05-24-2011 at 11:50 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legohaiden View Post
    best way to play a battle cleric.


    Log in, Reroll your toon to a FvS if you want to fight, or a Cleric if you want to heal.



    battle clerics fail 9 times out of 10. (Seen from experiance... very VERY few know how to actually do a real "Battle cleric")
    clerics can hit 600 dps on trash. too bad itll be way lower on bosses.
    as fvs your stuck to 2h greatswords. which are the worsed kind of weapons weapons to deal dmg with.
    the problem is feats.

    you need:
    two weapon fighting
    improved two weapon fighting
    greater two weapon fighting
    power attack
    stunning fist
    improved crit(khopesh or handwraps), khopesh also needs the prof.
    toughness
    maximize
    empower
    empower healing
    heighten
    quicken
    perhaps weapon fitnesse to raise to hit.

    an fighter1, monk2, human splash could hit that. but its the worsed race to dps with.
    helf adds 3d6 sa
    halfling adds +8 sa.
    yes wf. and horc got power attack enhancements, but they need theyre to hit as high as posible.

    itll probally be something like:
    lets asume 1 fighter, 2 monk, 17 cleric.

    +25 dmg. strength( 16 base + 5 level + 8 bloodrage + 2 rage + 4 blades + 7 enhancements + 1 exceptional + 2 yugo +4 tome + 2 shrine + 4 madstone + 6 titan grip)
    +6 dmg. divine might 3:
    +4 dmg: blade transformation
    +8 dmg power attack:
    +8 tharnes sneak attack

    silver handwraps"
    +10.5 greater bane
    +7 holy
    +7 (2d6 cold added).

    tod rings:
    +7 (2d6 holy burst( adds 2d6 on an crit))
    +7 (2d6 elemental burst. same, adds another 2d6 on an crit).

    event trinkiet for
    35 dmg on an crit.(10d6)

    banishing robe
    +100 on an crit

    event gloves
    +2.5 (1d4 spikes dmg on every hit).

    3.5 base dmg(1d6 standard might become 1d10 with tod set on, but will probably already have problems slotting in).

    its around 93 bare minimal on average every hit.
    bab 20 unarmed fighting = 204 attacks per min.

    204 * 93 / 60 = 316 dps. now adds stunning for +50% dmg = 474.
    can get it WAY higher if id really bothered to get an cualculator. but not in the mood.
    Last edited by erikbozelie; 05-25-2011 at 12:13 AM.

  12. #52
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    In fact, I just thought of an excellent training ground for any beginners who wish to roll a melee healer:

    Run a quest solo + an underlevel melee hireling.
    Set the hireling on aggressive.
    Do not let it die.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    as fvs your stuck to 2h greatswords. which are the worsed kind of weapons weapons to deal dmg with.
    the problem is feats.
    ...
    Not quite... on all counts...

    You absolutely do not "need" on a melee:
    weapon finesse
    Stunning fist
    empower
    maximize
    heighten
    any ThF feats
    And definitely absolutely never ever ever all ThF feats + TWF feats at the same time. *edit* swear I saw some ThF feats in your post... well nevermind that part.

    Anyway, at the end of the day and the end of the game, Greatswords are actually a pretty awesome option for a melee healer. FvS also are not "stuck" with them... Dont know where you got that from.
    Last edited by richieelias27; 05-25-2011 at 12:05 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by richieelias27 View Post
    In fact, I just thought of an excellent training ground for any beginners who wish to roll a melee healer:

    Run a quest solo + an underlevel melee hireling.
    Set the hireling on aggressive.
    Do not let it die.



    Not quite... on all counts...

    You absolutely do not "need" on a melee:
    weapon finesse
    Stunning fist
    empower
    maximize
    heighten
    any ThF feats
    And definitely absolutely never ever ever all ThF feats + TWF feats at the same time. *edit* swear I saw some ThF feats in your post... well nevermind that part.

    Anyway, at the end of the day and the end of the game, Greatswords are actually a pretty awesome option for a melee healer. FvS also are not "stuck" with them... Dont know where you got that from.
    with MATH!

    Slow THF (greatsword) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 86.63 * (100% + 0.9615 * sum of each boost%)
    Unarmed (monk) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 93.23 * (100% + 1.2939 * sum of each boost%)

    so unarmed fighting with haste and +10% haste clikie on. hits for 123.4 + 82,5% = 225.2 hits per min.
    the great sword hits for 107 hits per min or 131 when twitching.

    225.2 - 131 = 94.2 attacks, with the example above(93). itll end up at 8760 higher in speed to beat with 2h.
    power attack is doubled for 2h. so 131 * 8 = 1048dmg added from that...still like to see you making up the other 7.7k

    edit: strength is times 1.5 on 2h. so another 12 dmg added = 1572. maybe lightning strike would add abit on top of that again.
    idem. unarmed fighting is faster and adds more dmg.
    Last edited by erikbozelie; 05-25-2011 at 12:30 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    with MATH!
    Your analysis doesn't take into account the 50% glancing blow damage, or the additional base damage that a greatsword has (eSoS is 5d6+10 base), or the greater critical threat range of a greatsword vs handwraps (15-20 / x3 for eSoS with IC:S).

  15. #55
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Guys, there are plenty of threads for arguing DPS - do you have to drag it into here too? You're scaring all the newbies!
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
    Other build threads: Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallus View Post
    Your analysis doesn't take into account the 50% glancing blow damage, or the additional base damage that a greatsword has (eSoS is 5d6+10 base), or the greater critical threat range of a greatsword vs handwraps (15-20 / x3 for eSoS with IC:S).
    actually i did. 2 tod rings.
    i also did not added divine favor, banishing robe(unarmed only). shocking(unarmed only).
    just hit stuff with 13 bars of damage.

    greatsword aint the worsed damage, however. as you state, 50% glancing blow damage is neito, but also needs feats.

    they both can do damage, twf is just better for clerics since they rely more on direct damage points instead of power attack.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    actually i did. 2 tod rings.
    i also did not added divine favor, banishing robe(unarmed only). shocking(unarmed only).
    just hit stuff with 13 bars of damage.

    greatsword aint the worsed damage, however. as you state, 50% glancing blow damage is neito, but also needs feats.

    they both can do damage, twf is just better for clerics since they rely more on direct damage points instead of power attack.
    This has been argued time and time again by people with actual dps numbers instead of what you have provided there - some attacks per minute numbers followed by magic damage numbers with zero information on how you came up with them. Bravo. ThF with greatswords is not the worst DPS, far from it. In fact, it comes with many perks such as not having to blow points into DEX and freeing up 3 to 5 feats.

    A 2hander battlecleric "Needs" just 6 feats (5 if you favor weapons with keen/impact already present).

    Empower Healing
    Maximize
    Toughness
    Improved Crit (optional)
    Power Attack
    Quicken

    Surprise surprise that is actually 1 or 2 feats LESS than a pure Cleric/Favored soul has, making a 2h battle healers heals exactly on par with a "healbot". You can use those 1 or 2 feats to shore up whatever weakness you feel you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    with MATH!

    Slow THF (greatsword) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 86.63 * (100% + 0.9615 * sum of each boost%)
    Unarmed (monk) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 93.23 * (100% + 1.2939 * sum of each boost%)

    so unarmed fighting with haste and +10% haste clikie on. hits for 123.4 + 82,5% = 225.2 hits per min.
    the great sword hits for 107 hits per min or 131 when twitching.

    225.2 - 131 = 94.2 attacks, with the example above(93). itll end up at 8760 higher in speed to beat with 2h.
    power attack is doubled for 2h. so 131 * 8 = 1048dmg added from that...still like to see you making up the other 7.7k

    edit: strength is times 1.5 on 2h. so another 12 dmg added = 1572. maybe lightning strike would add abit on top of that again.
    idem. unarmed fighting is faster and adds more dmg.
    And now, also with !!MATH!!

    A greatsword has a length of approximately 50 to 70 inches. we'll average that to 60.
    A strip of cotton cloth burns at about 210 Centigrade.
    When you factor in the age of the Universe (approximately 13.75 billion years) you can clearly see that khopesh wins at 550 dps. (I included a few buffs, and did not include a few others. It is up to you, the reader, to figure out which ones.)
    Last edited by richieelias27; 05-25-2011 at 03:03 PM.

  18. #58
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    you got me richieelias27,

    faith wins science today.
    wait... what?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    you got me richieelias27,

    faith wins science today.
    wait... what?
    Well I'm sorry, but the main part of math is explaining exactly and precisely how you came to your solutions. Otherwise the numbers are meaningless, as are any and all conclusions derived from them.
    Last edited by richieelias27; 05-25-2011 at 03:05 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3dl4nce View Post
    CHA has nothing to do with "defense" and btw there is no kind of "magic defense" in DDO. The best "magic defense" is having evasion
    Spell Resistance, Will Saves... Are we playing the same game?

    CHA gives you "sexy defense"

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