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  1. #41
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Couple notes:

    Very carefully tested madstone boots frame by frame.

    They are 9-10% haste. No longer 20% per description (nerf happened back in update5)

    I informed flimsey firewood and madfloyd about this problem in tells on lamania and they were unaware of the issue but said they would look into it.

    Your OP is a bit confusing as you call your haste boost row "enh bonus"

    But the haste spell itself is an enhancement bonus, yet you list it ina colum. that really confused me for a while.

    Should renamed it "action boost bonus"
    As its for just haste boost right, which are typed as "action" bonus to attack speed.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    Need to know if anyone can find confirmation . . . was the bug with Tempest still giving a 10% speed boost corrected in U7 or U8?
    It was taken out in Update 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by t0r012 View Post
    don;t know if anyone has point this out yet from your unarmed.

    monk attack animations are not 4 they are 5.
    step 1 main hand straight punch
    step 2 main hand back fist (the one I think you aren't counting)
    step 3 off hand swing
    step 4 kick #1
    step 5 kick #2
    Nope monks only get four attack animations per round. The right hand back fist (actually, looks somewhat like an outside block or something) is actually just a wind-up animation for the left hand attack and doesn't generate any hits. You can test this by moving right after you start that animation; you'll always follow-through and do the left hand attack. Or you can look at the combat log and observe that depending on your TWF skill, you don't see 5 but 4 attacks in the sequence when you're unlucky:



    You can also look at a video and note that the data comes in generally in 4 batches per sequence (although this varies because the combat log data for the offhand attack can come in slightly later).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Couple notes:

    Very carefully tested madstone boots frame by frame.

    They are 9-10% haste. No longer 20% per description (nerf happened back in update5)

    I informed flimsey firewood and madfloyd about this problem in tells on lamania and they were unaware of the issue but said they would look into it.

    Your OP is a bit confusing as you call your haste boost row "enh bonus"

    But the haste spell itself is an enhancement bonus, yet you list it ina colum. that really confused me for a while.

    Should renamed it "action boost bonus"
    As its for just haste boost right, which are typed as "action" bonus to attack speed.
    Yeah Madstone boots is now 10%. I remember someone mentioned it on Lamannia around Update 5, and I tested it shortly after, but forgot to put it in the list (it's why I use the collar for testing instead of the boots). I'll add it in a bit. I also wanted to confirm if double madstone changes your attack speed (it shouldn't, but wanted to verify that), but haven't gotten around to that.

    The "enh_bonus" is the column header, not the row header, while the percentages in the top row are also column headers (and are referring to the amount of boost from action boost skill). They're referring to the data underneath them.

  3. #43
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    Vanshilar, I have a request if you're inclined, what is the SPM of S&B? Maybe just for the sake of completeness, or curiosity, or for those few gimpy Tank builds who use THF most of the time but turtle up into S&B mode for tanking or who happen to have looted a +4 Holy Silver Puregood warhammer and it's my /cough I mean our best Harry beater (hypothetically speaking of course )
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  4. #44
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    . . .In other words, unlike THF, TWF actually gets a 6% swing speed increase for every 5% alacrity boost. . .
    Van . . . is this still true?

  5. #45
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Since cleave now doesn't result in a long time standing still doing nothing, and resets the attack chain to boot.

    How fast is a 2h attack2-supreme cleave-attack2-supreme cleave rotation?
    A 2wf attack1-attack2-supreme cleave-attack1-attack2-supreme cleave rotation?
    A S&B attack1-attack2-supremecleave-attack1-attack2-supreme cleave rotation?
    ---
    Doing some quick testing it seems to give a increase on the level of twitching 2H with the difference of being applicable on all combat styles, 2h was actually 1-2-cleave, missed the first attack due to being similar to cleave.
    ...
    Just spamming sup.cleave seems to give a slightly lower but still notable benefit, added glancing blows makes it superior to regular twitching and cycling 1-cleave could do for some massive AoE damage.
    Last edited by zealous; 05-04-2011 at 06:02 PM.

  6. #46
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    Is it possible to twitch when TWFing? If yes, are there tests?
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 08-28-2011 at 04:35 AM.
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  7. #47
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Did anyone figure out where single weapon fighting fits into this?

    Between Sword and Board hate tankers getting buffed and Artificers it seems more relevant now than ever.

    Or did I just miss what it fits in with?

  8. #48
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Did anyone figure out where single weapon fighting fits into this?

    Between Sword and Board hate tankers getting buffed and Artificers it seems more relevant now than ever.

    Or did I just miss what it fits in with?
    I got some numbers awhile back, c/p time!

    On a BAB 20 character (thank you Divine Power), I measured 86.6 animations per minute base and 103.3 with Haste. This suggests a value of 129% per boost percentage, which is much more than either THF style gets. Regrettably, I did not think to measure that characters TWF or THF animation speeds to compare to Vanshilar's figures. While it is entirely conceivable that his rig would measure a different base, for the purposes of this post I am comfortable assuming that the base rate's being very much in line with other non-monk non-twitch styles is more than coincidence.

  9. #49
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Care to add wolf form to this? I'm curious how it stacks with haste and other boosts.
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  10. #50
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    How does BAB affect attack speed? I've heard that it's a 2% increase per 5 points.

    Working backwards that would put a TWF'ing style character at:
    BAB 20: 86.7 attacks/minute
    BAB 15-19: 86.7/1.02=85
    BAB 10-14: 85/1.02=83.3
    BAB 5-9: 83.3/1.02=81.7
    BAB 0-4: 81.7/1.02=80.1

    If I work forwards from 80 though ...
    80*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02=86.59 perhaps some mechanic influencing the 2% would allow 80 to be the base TWF'ing ROA?

    For others:
    Unarmed: 93.2/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=86.1
    fTHF: 86.5/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=79.9
    sTHF: 86.6/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=80

    Perhaps 80 is the base attack speed regardless of style (except unarmed) and BAB affects each combat style slightly differently just as each is affected by alacrity slightly different?

    Possibly unarmed could be 85 base and with the increased benefits from alacrity it sees could make it to 93.2 that way.

    The above assumes a multiplicative approach, possibly it could be additive if a factor was included. 80*(1+.02*4)=86.4.

    Or maybe I'm just way off track?
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  11. #51
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    How does BAB affect attack speed? I've heard that it's a 2% increase per 5 points.

    Working backwards that would put a TWF'ing style character at:
    BAB 20: 86.7 attacks/minute
    BAB 15-19: 86.7/1.02=85
    BAB 10-14: 85/1.02=83.3
    BAB 5-9: 83.3/1.02=81.7
    BAB 0-4: 81.7/1.02=80.1

    If I work forwards from 80 though ...
    80*1.02*1.02*1.02*1.02=86.59 perhaps some mechanic influencing the 2% would allow 80 to be the base TWF'ing ROA?

    For others:
    Unarmed: 93.2/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=86.1
    fTHF: 86.5/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=79.9
    sTHF: 86.6/1.02/1.02/1.02/1.02=80

    Perhaps 80 is the base attack speed regardless of style (except unarmed) and BAB affects each combat style slightly differently just as each is affected by alacrity slightly different?

    Possibly unarmed could be 85 base and with the increased benefits from alacrity it sees could make it to 93.2 that way.

    The above assumes a multiplicative approach, possibly it could be additive if a factor was included. 80*(1+.02*4)=86.4.

    Or maybe I'm just way off track?
    After looking at my numbers for how long it takes attack animations to complete at various BAB points (especially the bow and throwing speeds), I do believe this fits the model. However, there are a couple corrections to how you currently have it:

    • Increases to the melee animation times don't just happen at BAB 5, 10, 15, and 20. They also occur at BAB 1, 3, and 25.
    • The multipliers are less than what you are currently guessing. The standard melee with weapons uses ~1.4% multiplier and the unarmed melee is using something around ~1.7% as a multiplier
      • Standard melee BAB 0: 80 * (1.014 ^ 0) = 80.00
      • Standard melee BAB 1: 80 * (1.014 ^ 1) = 81.12
      • Standard melee BAB 3: 80 * (1.014 ^ 2) = 82.26
      • Standard melee BAB 5: 80 * (1.014 ^ 3) = 83.41
      • Standard melee BAB 10: 80 * (1.014 ^ 4) = 84.57
      • Standard melee BAB 15: 80 * (1.014 ^ 5) = 85.75
      • Standard melee BAB 20: 80 * (1.014 ^ 6) = 86.96
      • Standard melee BAB 25: 80 * (1.014 ^ 7) = 88.17
      • Standard unarmed BAB 0: 85 * (1.017 ^ 0) = 85.00
      • Standard unarmed BAB 1: 85 * (1.017 ^ 1) = 86.44
      • Standard unarmed BAB 3: 85 * (1.017 ^ 2) = 87.91
      • Standard unarmed BAB 5: 85 * (1.017 ^ 3) = 89.41
      • Standard unarmed BAB 10: 85 * (1.017 ^ 4) = 90.93
      • Standard unarmed BAB 15: 85 * (1.017 ^ 5) = 92.47
      • Standard unarmed BAB 20: 85 * (1.017 ^ 6) = 94.05
      • Standard unarmed BAB 25: 85 * (1.017 ^ 7) = 95.65


    Where I currently am, I don't have the numbers for ranged, but those go up for each point of BAB. If I get some time later today I'll toss them up (and possibly brawl-style unarmed).

    Any haste or slow effects will also still cause a difference between the styles of Two-Weapon Fighting, Slow Two-Handed Fighting, Fast Two-Handed Fighting, Sword and Board, Unarmed, Bow, Thrown, and Crossbow. The percentage modifiers on how much haste/slow effects on them really take place are still adjusted due to the animations of each style.
    Last edited by MrCow; 07-16-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    After looking at my numbers for how long it takes attack animations to complete at various BAB points (especially the bow and throwing speeds), I do believe this fits the model. However, there are a couple corrections to how you currently have it:

    • Increases to the melee animation times don't just happen at BAB 5, 10, 15, and 20. They also occur at BAB 1, 3, and 25.
    • The multipliers are less than what you are currently guessing. The standard melee with weapons uses ~1.4% multiplier and the unarmed melee is using something around ~1.7% as a multiplier
      • Standard melee BAB 0: 80 * (1.014 ^ 0) = 80.00
      • Standard melee BAB 1: 80 * (1.014 ^ 1) = 81.12
      • Standard melee BAB 3: 80 * (1.014 ^ 2) = 82.26
      • Standard melee BAB 5: 80 * (1.014 ^ 3) = 83.41
      • Standard melee BAB 10: 80 * (1.014 ^ 4) = 84.57
      • Standard melee BAB 15: 80 * (1.014 ^ 5) = 85.75
      • Standard melee BAB 20: 80 * (1.014 ^ 6) = 86.96
      • Standard melee BAB 25: 80 * (1.014 ^ 7) = 88.17
      • Standard unarmed BAB 0: 85 * (1.017 ^ 0) = 85.00
      • Standard unarmed BAB 1: 85 * (1.017 ^ 1) = 86.44
      • Standard unarmed BAB 3: 85 * (1.017 ^ 2) = 87.91
      • Standard unarmed BAB 5: 85 * (1.017 ^ 3) = 89.41
      • Standard unarmed BAB 10: 85 * (1.017 ^ 4) = 90.93
      • Standard unarmed BAB 15: 85 * (1.017 ^ 5) = 92.47
      • Standard unarmed BAB 20: 85 * (1.017 ^ 6) = 94.05
      • Standard unarmed BAB 25: 85 * (1.017 ^ 7) = 95.65


    Where I currently am, I don't have the numbers for ranged, but those go up for each point of BAB.
    Is the base 80 or 85 attacks/minute for BAB 0 an idea that's come up before as I've never read it in a thread and thought it was a bit whacky but I seem to have made a good guess of it?

    I'm interested in your ranged attack calcs, they're the actual reason I got thinking about this.

    Combining this with Vanshilar's formula in the OP you can get attack speed for any BAB/alacrity combination which is quite nice.

    Interesting to see an attack speed increase at BAB 25, looks like a solid reason to to level to 25 afterall.
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  13. #53
    Community Member Lurzifer's Avatar
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    Sorry for just hopping into the discussion without having read everything, but afaik there is no BAB 25, only 23, since even as a full BAB Fightertype class with 5 Epic levels u only get +3 BAB on 21/23/25.
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  14. #54
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    You can currently achieve BAB 25 by being level 25 and using an ability or spell that increases your BAB to equal your level (Divine Power, Madstone Rage, Tenser's Transformation, Bladesworn Transformation, Past Life: Student of the Sword active effect).

    This may or may not be intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    Is the base 80 or 85 attacks/minute for BAB 0 an idea that's come up before as I've never read it in a thread and thought it was a bit whacky but I seem to have made a good guess of it?
    As far as I am aware, those specific numbers have not come up before for BAB 0 (especially on unarmed, as no one can perform the monk unarmed style at BAB 0) on the forums. People generally don't care about attack speeds at a BAB lower than 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    I'm interested in your ranged attack calcs, they're the actual reason I got thinking about this.
    I'm going off my head for this estimate, but I believe bow and thrown have a Base attack speed of 25 per minute and a multiplier of 3.7% per point of BAB (51.7 attacks per minute at BAB 20, 62.0 attacks per minute at BAB 25).
    Last edited by MrCow; 07-16-2012 at 10:19 AM.
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  15. #55
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    Now that is kind of interesting to know, time to get those clickies back for the occasional DPS race :P
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurzifer View Post
    interesting to know
    ...and short-lived, I'll wager.

  17. #57
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    I'm interested in your ranged attack calcs, they're the actual reason I got thinking about this.
    The gains from BAB 1 and BAB 2 are non-standard on bows and thrown weapons, and give a straight boost to the attacks-per-minute base. From BAB 3 and on it is a ~2.9% multiplier per point of BAB.

    • Bow and Thrown BAB 0: 25 = 25.00
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 1: 28 = 28.00
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 2: 31 = 31.00
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 3: 31 * (1.029 ^ 1) = 31.90
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 4: 31 * (1.029 ^ 2) = 32.82
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 5: 31 * (1.029 ^ 3) = 33.78
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 6: 31 * (1.029 ^ 4) = 34.76
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 7: 31 * (1.029 ^ 5) = 35.76
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 8: 31 * (1.029 ^ 6) = 36.80
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 9: 31 * (1.029 ^ 7) = 37.87
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 10: 31 * (1.029 ^ 8) = 38.97
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 11: 31 * (1.029 ^ 9) = 40.10
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 12: 31 * (1.029 ^ 10) = 41.26
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 13: 31 * (1.029 ^ 11) = 42.46
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 14: 31 * (1.029 ^ 12) = 43.69
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 15: 31 * (1.029 ^ 13) = 44.95
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 16: 31 * (1.029 ^ 14) = 46.26
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 17: 31 * (1.029 ^ 15) = 47.60
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 18: 31 * (1.029 ^ 16) = 48.98
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 19: 31 * (1.029 ^ 17) = 50.40
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 20: 31 * (1.029 ^ 18) = 51.86
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 21: 31 * (1.029 ^ 19) = 53.36
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 22: 31 * (1.029 ^ 20) = 54.91
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 23: 31 * (1.029 ^ 21) = 56.50
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 24: 31 * (1.029 ^ 22) = 58.14
    • Bow and Thrown BAB 25: 31 * (1.029 ^ 23) = 59.83


    Maybe someday we can achieve BAB 40, and bows will finally have a faster base attack speed than standard melee weaponry.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    I'm going off my head for this estimate, but I believe bow and thrown have a Base attack speed of 25 per minute and a multiplier of 3.7% per point of BAB (51.7 attacks per minute at BAB 20, 62.0 attacks per minute at BAB 25).
    And various alacrity effects provide an alacrity bonus other than stated?
    Rapid Shot: 10% for bows, 5% for repeating crossbows?
    Rapid Reload: 0% for bows, 15% for repeating crossbows?
    Haste: 7.5% for bows, 5% for repeating crossbows?
    Gilvaenors set:?
    Fighter capstone: 5%?
    Ranger capstone: 12.5%?
    Shiradi stance (fatesinger ability): 5%?
    Anything I missed?

    (just guesses from my own observation or hearsay).
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 07-16-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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  19. #59
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    And various alacrity effects provide an alacrity bonus other than stated?
    Rapid Shot: 10% for bows, 5% for repeating crossbows?
    Rapid Reload: 0% for bows, 15% for repeating crossbows?
    Haste: 7.5% for bows, 5% for repeating crossbows?
    I haven't tested Rapid Shot/Rapid Reload/Quick Draw since Module 7, back when they provided a flat +5 attacks per minute to the attack animation (or less if the feat only partially affected the weapon). Any information I have on those feat interactions is woefully obsolete.

    However, all ranged weapons still suffer from the issue where any speed bonuses (or penalties) only apply half their stated value to the reload animation.
    • Bows are 33% firing and 67% reload for the full animation, so multiply the change in speed by 66% (a 10% bonus to ranged speed nets 6.6%).
    • Thrown Weapons are 67% firing and 33% reload for the full animation, so multiply the change in speed by 83% (a 10% bonus to ranged speed nets 8.3%).


    The developers are aware that this issue is present. If you cast the spell Haste it grants a 15% bonus to melee attack speed (although, most melee forms actually go a little bit faster than this due to animation quirks) and a 22% bonus to ranged attack speed.



    On the topic of any kind of crossbow, I haven't looked at them since Artificers came out and they revised the rules on that. However, it is broken into 3 animations now: position to fire, fire, reload. Each animation has its own quirks, so it is a fairly complex beast.
    Last edited by MrCow; 07-16-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    If you cast the spell Haste it grants a 15% bonus to melee attack speed (although, most melee forms actually go a little bit faster than this due to animation quirks) and a 22% bonus to ranged attack speed.
    Haste provides more benefit to ranged than what it does to melee or is that a typo?
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