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  1. #1
    Community Member Aexicas's Avatar
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    Default Roguelike Dungeon

    First off, I want to premise this suggestion by saying that I realize it would take a silly amount of coding, time, and effort to do this. Regardless, I think this suggestion would change DDO in a way for the better.

    My suggestion is simple; let us have one "roguelike" dungeon. For those of you who know what a roguelike is, skip ahead to the next section.

    I. What is a Roguelike, anyway?
    -A roguelike is a dungeon that -never- is the same. Using one method or the other (usually by stringing pieces of maps together), the computer randomly generates a dungeon that is, at least relatively, unique. Each time you would enter this dungeon, you would experience something that was different. Maybe one time you would go in and fight paragon kobolds, where, on the next "floor" of the dungeon, you might run into something like the vine stalkers in the fens.

    2. What's the point?
    - The point is, it's something -different-. How many people complain about how dungeons "all look the same" or "never change and get boring"? How about all those rogues that cry because everyone knows where the traps are (and how to evade them)? How about all the looters that get tired of running the same quest for the same mob until their eyes bleed (or they finally get what they're looking for)?

    This can alleviate that by making a dungeon FOR you!

    3. Okay, my attention is piqued, what do you have in mind?
    - 4 seperate types of dungeons could be made for you.
    1) Kill'em'all. - The goal is simple; clean out all of the monsters in the dungeon.
    2) Find some stuff. - There's a chest somewhere in the dungeon. Kill the boss and open the chest.
    3) Escape! - You have a reasonable time limit. You need to find a key, get back to the entrance, and run away!
    4) Collect the Phlebotium. - There are objects around the dungeon; find them all.

    Each one of these types of dungeons have the following things in common-
    1) Random monsters-Each time you go in, there will be 2-3 different types of monsters about it. You never know what you're going to get, until you get it.
    2) Bosses of the same type
    -Each time you go in, there will be one more more bosses of the same type of monsters you are fighting.
    --As an added bonus! If the devs could scale monsters, you can actually re-use old bosses! Imagine going into a slime filled dungeon, and finding muck, opening his chest, and going "Zomg! A muckbane!" in a level 15 quest. Yes, it might not be risk/reward worthy, but it'd still be awesome.
    3) Random traps.
    -Sometimes you'll have no traps. Sometimes the place will be stocked. But since the dungeon itself changes, so do trap positions. And types. And pain.
    4) Scalable difficulty.
    -The beauty is, you could set this to ANY level; just have monsters scale to you. At any time, this concept could work for a level 20, as well as it could work for a level 4; just with varied monsters. Some could be locked out; others could be added as you level.
    5) Varied terrains
    - Xen'drik is a place that makes little sense to mortals (too much arcane magic in the water, I swear); that said, as we already have pretty much every terrain, this dungeon could as well.

    4. What would the rewards be?
    -XP. Scaled to your level. Unfortunately, this might end at the 10 or so runs that it takes for you to get capped on xp from a quest anyway, unless there were a few of these.
    -Loot. You never know what named you can pull, and how many. The chests would be scaled to your level and difficulty you choose. You have a good chance at making money.
    -Fun. That's why we're here, isnt it? It's something different.

    ---------------------------------
    I know something like this would take forever to code, so I wouldn't expect it for another year or two. Still; I'd love something like this, and it'd keep me around forever. I've seen this attempted in other games, but I think that this game is what would be the most suiting environment for such an idea.

    What do you guys think?
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  2. #2
    Community Member Draccus's Avatar
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    There was a Neverwinter Nights mod available that played like a Roguelike. It was called Endless Dungeons or something like that. I bought it and played it.

    It was fun for about an hour but then something odd happened. This next sentence is going to sound wierd but hear me out: The randomness of the dungeon got repetitive and boring.

    Because of the limitations of the system, the dungeon couldn't be truely randomized. Instead, like a roguelike, the engine had dozens of pieces of dungeon that it could pick from and then piece together. Sure, the lefts and rights changed. Sure, the monsters placement changed. But, in the end, you were repeating the same content over and over.

    I don't know of DDO could do something like this, and it may be fun for a single dungeon, but I wouldn't want it applied to the game broadly and I don't think the major changes required to make it work would be worth it for one or two quests.

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  3. #3
    Community Member BangsLiekWhoa's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I would +1 you for using "Phlebotium" (although it is hard to tell if unobtainium would be more correct - I really can't remember), but alas, I must spread the love more before repping you again...

    This is an interesting concept though. However, it would make it very difficult to know what to plan for. My wizard likes to know what he is going up against before he gets there. Just in case he needs to memorize something especially useful for the situation.
    Last edited by BangsLiekWhoa; 09-02-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Bekki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BangsLiekWhoa View Post
    I would +1 you for using "Phlebotium" (although it is hard to tell if unobtainium would be more correct - I really can't remember), but alas, I must spread the love more before repping you again...

    This is an interesting concept though. However, it would make it very difficult to know what to plan for. My wizard likes to know what he is going up against before he gets there. Just in case he needs to memorize something especially useful for the situation.
    Isn't that the point!?
    The not knowing...

    The OP said he would like to see this for one dungeon,
    not all of them...

    It does sound very good, and has been suggested before.

    Along with random Traps...

    I would suggest it could be in a quest string where say
    you must infiltrate a Thieves guild lair...

    Like say... in the quest in Three Barrel Cove... "Prove your worth"
    or in the movie (and yes I know it was horrid)

    Dungeons & Dragons...

    Where they had to get the gem
    or something like that...

    I agree that It would be great for a quest or two...
    (For something different)

    But I wouldn't want to see it be something that was all pervasive...
    Last edited by Bekki; 09-02-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Aexicas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draccus View Post
    There was a Neverwinter Nights mod available that played like a Roguelike. It was called Endless Dungeons or something like that. I bought it and played it.

    It was fun for about an hour but then something odd happened. This next sentence is going to sound wierd but hear me out: The randomness of the dungeon got repetitive and boring.

    Because of the limitations of the system, the dungeon couldn't be truely randomized. Instead, like a roguelike, the engine had dozens of pieces of dungeon that it could pick from and then piece together. Sure, the lefts and rights changed. Sure, the monsters placement changed. But, in the end, you were repeating the same content over and over.

    I don't know of DDO could do something like this, and it may be fun for a single dungeon, but I wouldn't want it applied to the game broadly and I don't think the major changes required to make it work would be worth it for one or two quests.
    I hear ya, and understand where you're coming from; I suppose my ultimate point of this is that DDO already has dabbled in the technology, really. Necropolis quests, in particular, deal with this (well, part 4 does, anyway), and the traps lately have been a lot more interesting in their randomness.

    I do agree, though; with the limitations currently, it would take a lot to do this. That said, I do still think it should be a direction one or two devs could look at, eventually (again, I wouldn't expect this for a LOOOONG time). I think, with the deal with the WB Turbine has and all of their changes, eventually we might have some extra people to take a look at this too.

    I by no means am saying this should trump other things (fixes, a new raid, etc), but, I do think it'd be something to keep old players invigorated, especially if they have something more along the lines of 50 or so "puzzle pieces" to play with. Like I said before, with the different terrains and such available in game, I think it would be no more eye gougingly grindy than, say, doing the five vale quests for the elusive funk.

    Quote Originally Posted by BangsLiekWhoa
    I would +1 you for using "Phlebotium" (although it is hard to tell if unobtainium would be more correct - I really can't remember), but alas, I must spread the love more before repping you again...

    This is an interesting concept though. However, it would make it very difficult to know what to plan for. My wizard likes to know what he is going up against before he gets there. Just in case he needs to memorize something especially useful for the situation.
    Agreed, it would be consistantly difficult to plan for; that's part of the fun though, I'd think. Perhaps, still, maybe if there was a bit of player customization/unlockablity attached to the dungeon, you could set a parameter or two, like "I want to fight giants" or "Take me to a cold place". And there would always be shrines for our book-learned friends!

    Edit: And yes, for sure to all those who wouldn't want to see this in every quest. I'm 100% with you; personally, (and I know I'm probably weird) I like DDO's story, as loose as it is. That's the reason my DM text is still on =p This is just an idea to give both end game content, as well as leveling content, all at the same time.
    Last edited by Aexicas; 09-02-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member OmegaDestroyer's Avatar
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    Infinite Dungeons for NWN had some insane gear and interesting sights, but it did get old fast.

  7. #7
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    I would welcome a quest like this with open arms, I think that with a little work they could borrow the code from different parts of the game. random maps (maz in PRAY). (Underwater combat could be expanded. (loved it)) Light Gravity from IQ. it is not endless but has great possibiltys. +1 Rep for the idea.
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  8. #8
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    My only issue is:

    How would you make it lore appropriate? There would have to be a reason for a random dungeon to be in Xen'drik. The only two options I can think of would be a dungeon where the path is random but the end result is the same (the end goal is a static part of a story, it just happens the dungeon is never the same when YOU run it), or one where a appropriate reason is given for running it over and over again (like a tournament for example).

    I dont want just some random dungeon generator in DDO.
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  9. #9
    Community Member diamabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    My only issue is:

    How would you make it lore appropriate? There would have to be a reason for a random dungeon to be in Xen'drik. The only two options I can think of would be a dungeon where the path is random but the end result is the same (the end goal is a static part of a story, it just happens the dungeon is never the same when YOU run it), or one where a appropriate reason is given for running it over and over again (like a tournament for example).

    I dont want just some random dungeon generator in DDO.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamabel View Post
    One single word in reply. Xoriat - The plane of madness (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Xoriat)
    Argh! Ya beat me to it! +1!
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  11. #11
    Community Member Aexicas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    Argh! Ya beat me to it! +1!
    Blah! Beat me too!

    The other thing I was thinking was it could be a giantish device of some sort, being a remnant from the Empire (maybe make it a gianthold quest?). Perhaps it was something that they created, eons ago, to fight the quori in their own dreams, by putting them in a dream-like state, fighting as their minds wandered through whatever thoughts they had.

    Personally, I like the Xoriat idea better, and, well, if/when druids get put in anyway, it'd be REALLY lore appropriate. After all, Gatekeepers are...well, keeping the gate from the Lords of Madness. Perhaps this could be a quest having to do with a Gatekeeper faction?
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  12. #12
    Community Member diamabel's Avatar
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    "Marrying" random dungeons with lore shouldn't be that much of an issue.

    I'd wish Turbine tried to spice up explorer areas in a similar way. It get's boring for me if you know the area and run the same routes. Here's a link for inspiration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_landscape

  13. #13
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    Hrmm, I have a hard time thinking a randomized dungeon would be good for DDO lag. Every party entering would cause tremendous server work and data requests. However, you could have a convoluted dungeon layout with multiple objectives that are triggered differently by how/when the players enter the dungeon.

    Take a good random value such as when players enter the level (one, few, all) which then would switch up what the NPC inside tells you to do (Find and secure A, Search for NPC B, Defend location C). Might be okay if you just change which event is mandatory and make the others optionals (this is a please the crowd bit).

    Dogan
    Just don't see truly random dungeons feasible.

  14. #14
    Community Member Aexicas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doganpc View Post
    Hrmm, I have a hard time thinking a randomized dungeon would be good for DDO lag. Every party entering would cause tremendous server work and data requests.
    This single comment is why I don't see it happening for two years. Consider, though, if they did expand their server bandwidth, in particular.

    Truly, it really wouldn't be all that bad, to be honest. I could site a source (FFXI), but I do realize the comparison isn't that fair to turbine, as the servers of the game in question are probably a lot larger.

    Still, I do like your idea, and could settle for it. Having a large, convoluted map (perhaps the size of the vale, or bigger) would be effective, and if there were needs to change areas, you could just hop in through a portal (somewhat like how SoS is run.) It'd be a good compromise, despite the fact that it wouldn't be really a roguelike. Something to stem the tide, so to speak.

    Still, I think in a few years, this could be managed; no time -soon-, but, it'd be interesting if Devs looked in this direction some day. Maybe take your advice as a first step, or so.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Ashiel_Dragmire's Avatar
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    Hmm... I like this. It would be pretty nice to simply kick back with some guildies and run a few random dungeons.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Everytime I play Diablo 2 the zones feels just like the last time I played them. Except that the path you take is a bit different. and that only annoys me.

  17. #17
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    While total randomization might be a problem, maybe something along the lines of pick from a random 10 maps. Randomly select the monsters. Randomly place various traps. It may not have everything, but at least we won't know what exactly is around each bend.

  18. #18
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    I played ADOM and Nethack religiously for years, and before that was addicted to Rogue back in the 1980s.

    If done properly infinite dungeons and variations on them can be extremely fun.

    Some of these designs have already been in place, like the shadow crypt (which has lost its mystery by having the pattern solved) and a couple of the amrath quests like a New Invasion.

    The concept is a very sound one, and hopefully will be explored more by the devs in the future.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Winter_storm's Avatar
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    Well its true it would be hard coding but they can do this. Make a door that throws you to a randomly selected existing quest up to the highest party member level. This would be more fun I would think. Lets say you are lvl 15 and enter this door you would choose the difficulty of the quest but would not know nothing more including quest name and when you go inside you could land up in heyton's quest (in korthos) or the wizard king (in the demon sands). The only hard coding they would have to contend with is making sure the whole party can do the quest or just keep it to Free to play quests only. Or the only way a Free to Play player can enter a Pay to Play area is this way if it did land up in a Pay to Play quest.

    Or even better yet have six doors (or just one) and you land up in a random party in a random quest with a random difficultly level.
    Last edited by Winter_storm; 09-02-2010 at 12:36 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Cylinwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draccus View Post
    There was a Neverwinter Nights mod available that played like a Roguelike. It was called Endless Dungeons or something like that. I bought it and played it.

    It was fun for about an hour but then something odd happened. This next sentence is going to sound wierd but hear me out: The randomness of the dungeon got repetitive and boring.

    Because of the limitations of the system, the dungeon couldn't be truely randomized. Instead, like a roguelike, the engine had dozens of pieces of dungeon that it could pick from and then piece together. Sure, the lefts and rights changed. Sure, the monsters placement changed. But, in the end, you were repeating the same content over and over.

    I don't know of DDO could do something like this, and it may be fun for a single dungeon, but I wouldn't want it applied to the game broadly and I don't think the major changes required to make it work would be worth it for one or two quests.
    Holy **** that's the first time I've had my entire response summed up by the first post that didn't boil down to "no."

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