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  1. #1
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    Default Monk/Paladin what next?

    So I made a Drow level 2 monk level 2 paladin character, and I have some (in my opinion) ridiculous saving throws for my level, +14/+15/+14, as well as 24 AC. With just monk veteran starter gear, as well. I feel like I should be able to keep it relatively good in the higher levels, I just don't know what to do next.
    Should I stick to Monk, or Paladin? Or should I add a third class? In the way of damage output, my Strength took a big hit when assigning my ability scores to Dex, Wisdom and Charisma. So I was thinking maybe go TWF and hope for a lot of crits. But would it be worth it to do that, or would it be better to just stick with Monk? I didn't put any points into Concentration because I wasn't planning on staying a monk, but I can easily fix that when I level up.

    For TWF, I was thinking either Fighter or Ranger. Ranger would be an obvious choice because of the natural TWF feats, but the other abilities would be redundant/pointless so it would likely be better to just rely on the fighter bonus feats. Plus, I could take Kensei for some extra damage to at least be decent at higher levels despite low Strength. The Strength enhancements would help too. My natural choice for weapons would be Khopeshs as well, but that's not the only option.

    Anyway, what do you guys think? Should I stick with Paladin or Monk, or add a third class?

    My abilities (base, unbuffed, but with enhancements) are:

    STR 10
    DEX 15
    CON 8
    INT 10
    WIS 18
    CHA 19

  2. #2
    Community Member Bodic's Avatar
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    Well what do you want to do End Game you need to figure that out. I do not like a 10 strength that is not good at all. and 3 lvls of light monk nets you the healing curse.stanced in handwraps. Look up solar phoenix

  3. #3
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    STR 10: Can't even take Power Attack.
    CON 8: One hit wonder. Squishie.
    CHA 19: You Sorcerer/Bard? Too high, a waste, build points would be better used for CON/STR.
    WIS 18: You Cleric/FvS?. Too high, a waste, build points would be better used for CON/STR.

    Paladin, Monk, Ranger, etc is a warrior. Warriors need to be strong and durable.

    Just CON 8 is a reason to reroll (if low level) or LR (if high level).

  4. #4
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    So I made a Drow level 2 monk level 2 paladin character, and I have some (in my opinion) ridiculous saving throws for my level, +14/+15/+14, as well as 24 AC. With just monk veteran starter gear, as well. I feel like I should be able to keep it relatively good in the higher levels, I just don't know what to do next.
    Should I stick to Monk, or Paladin? Or should I add a third class? In the way of damage output, my Strength took a big hit when assigning my ability scores to Dex, Wisdom and Charisma. So I was thinking maybe go TWF and hope for a lot of crits. But would it be worth it to do that, or would it be better to just stick with Monk? I didn't put any points into Concentration because I wasn't planning on staying a monk, but I can easily fix that when I level up.

    For TWF, I was thinking either Fighter or Ranger. Ranger would be an obvious choice because of the natural TWF feats, but the other abilities would be redundant/pointless so it would likely be better to just rely on the fighter bonus feats. Plus, I could take Kensei for some extra damage to at least be decent at higher levels despite low Strength. The Strength enhancements would help too. My natural choice for weapons would be Khopeshs as well, but that's not the only option.

    Anyway, what do you guys think? Should I stick with Paladin or Monk, or add a third class?

    My abilities (base, unbuffed, but with enhancements) are:

    STR 10
    DEX 15
    CON 8
    INT 10
    WIS 18
    CHA 19
    Oupsie!

    You can stand and save against anything, but can you actually do something useful with that char?

    Imo completely and utterly fubar

    Reroll, get decent STR and CON. Dont waste so many build points on WIS and CHA.

  5. #5
    Community Member Yskuma's Avatar
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    Um, a Con of 8 is fairly painful on the HP side of things.

    If you're not taking 11 levels of ranger you need a Dex of 17 (Base + Tomes) to pick up the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat...

    I've always found it easiest to plan an entire build from level 1 - 20 before starting rather than deciding what to do on level up. If you really want to play a Paladin / Monk I'd take Bodic's advice and look at the Solar Pheonix, if I remember rightly it's a 34 point build but you should be able to work out a 32 point version.
    Last edited by Yskuma; 09-02-2010 at 05:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    You have really spread yourself too thin there, I can't see you doing any significant DPS as you level up, and you are going to be far too squishy. I would suggest planning out your character to 20, at least in a rough draft, before you create to avoid this problem in the future.

    Every time you splash another class you lose out on something from your main class, so you have to ask yourself, what am I getting out of this? Don't multi-class for the sake of multi-classing, that is the path to disaster.

    Monk and Paladin can have a decent synergy, but it takes a lot of planning on knowledge to pull off. First things first, do you want to fight with handwraps or two weapons? Do you want to be centered or are you taking a monk splash just for evasion and/or wisdom AC bonus? If you want to stay centered you will need to use longswords or shortswords and take the appropriate pre-requisites. Do you want to be super-high DPS, or moderate DPS and more survivable?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chette View Post
    Do you want to be super-high DPS, or moderate DPS and more survivable?
    This is sort of what I was going for, and was kinda basing on the assumption that I wouldn't need thaat much HP, because things wouldn't end up actually hitting me that much. At the very least I could maybe try to increase my diplomacy a bit to draw off attackers, so I'd only be mostly worried about AoE spells (and with such high saves and evasion, most of the time that wouldn't be a problem).

    As far as my low Strength though, if I grabbed maybe Weapon Finesse (so I actually hit things), wouldn't I only suffer maybe 5-10 less damage per attack? Like, if I had maybe 16 strength starting out, that's +3, and if I had Power Attack that'd add +5 (of course at the cost of attack bonus as well, which I might not even be able to afford losing even if I did have good strength). I realize that's a substantial amount, but we're talking maybe a 30-40% drop in damage dealing capabilities (compared to a pure DPS or something), for immensely boosted saves and AC. I also have Toughness, and plan on taking as many Toughness enhancements as possible.

    Luckily though, I do have veteran status, so I just rolled up this character and didn't have to play through a ton of quests to get it where it is xD So if it is completely useless, it's not a big deal.

  8. #8
    Community Member k1ngp1n's Avatar
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  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    STR 10
    DEX 15
    CON 8
    INT 10
    WIS 18
    CHA 19
    No. Just...no.

    I'm sure there are plenty of good DPS-focused drow monk 2 / paladin 18 builds out there. For something a little more off-the-wall, though, here's a Finesse-based DoS hate tank:

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
    Hit Points: 328
    Spell Points: 205 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 25
    Reflex: 26
    Will: 18
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             14                    16
    Dexterity            17                    26
    Constitution         12                    14
    Intelligence         12                    13
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             16                    20
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 5
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 17
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
    
    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
    Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
    Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    TWF w/rapiers. At low lvls you'll wear light armor; once you crank your WIS & DEX high enough, you'll switch to robes. If you really commit to the AC grind later in the game, you'll wind up something like this (numbers shamelessly swiped from Exploiter):

    10 Base
    13 DEX 36 (base 17 + 5 lvl-ups +2 enhs + 2 tome + 7 item + 3 exceptional)
    3 Wisdom 16 (base 8 + 2 tome + 6 item)
    1 monk bonus
    4 Icy Raiments (Dodge)
    1 Alchemical (Dodge)
    3 Chattering Ring (Dodge)
    4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
    5 Protection
    8 Armor Bracers
    5 Combat Expertise
    5 paladin aura
    3 DoS III
    4 DoS III stance
    69 Beholder AC
    3 Barkskin potion
    4 Shield clickie
    1 Haste potion
    77 self-buffed AC
    2 ranger 12 Barkskin
    4 Inspire Heroics
    2 Recitation
    85 party / raid buffed AC

    Not quite best in class, but not too shabby for a tree-hugger in a dress. And note that the only tomes which are required are +1 INT for CE and +2 CHA for Divine Might III; the rest fall under "helpful but not essential."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1ngp1n View Post
    I've read that. That's one of the reasons I think I can still get at least good damage even with only 10 Str thanks to all the nice paladin abilities that increase damage. And if I go Rapier, there's the Drow damage bonuses too.

    EDIT: Didn't want to double post so edited this instead!

    Huh, that build looks pretty handy. I might reroll and try it.
    Last edited by d3rian; 09-02-2010 at 11:12 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    I've read that. That's one of the reasons I think I can still get at least good damage even with only 10 Str thanks to all the nice paladin abilities that increase damage. And if I go Rapier, there's the Drow damage bonuses too.

    EDIT: Didn't want to double post so edited this instead!

    Huh, that build looks pretty handy. I might reroll and try it.
    Reroll AT LEAST 12+ Con.

  12. #12
    Community Member k1ngp1n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    I've read that.
    From the first page:

    Strength: Paladins are a feat-starved class, and consequently paladins built around Weapon Finesse are quite rare. Whether a tank or a damage-dealer, strength is critical to your offensive output. While paladins get many buffs and abilities which increase their damage dealing, only a few of these also help their to-hit. Consequently, while you may sacrifice a point or two of strength for other statistics, it is unwise to tank it below 15 or so for most builds.
    Constitution: For every DDO character, constitution is extremely important. This is certainly true on a front-line melee class, even one with great saves and self-healing abilities. Typical advice is to invest in constitution for as long as you get 1 point per 1 build point. Paying 2 for 1 in constitution is rarely a good idea, and some two weapon human, dwarf or warforged builds will go 2 points shy of that (12 human, 14 dwarf/wf). Going under 12 is never wise, and even the listed exception is something you should approach carefully.
    Sarlona: Riyana | Ilyrae | Elaeria | Arlayh | Aryis | Lyanis | Yaera | Kyilsi | Malitae | Niariel | Laeriya
    'Polluting Sarlona with gimpy elves since 2009.'
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  13. #13
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    This is sort of what I was going for, and was kinda basing on the assumption that I wouldn't need thaat much HP, because things wouldn't end up actually hitting me that much.
    Unfortunately unless you build for AC, which is very difficult and gear intensive, past level 12 everything will hit you. Everything. I am currently playing a paladin/monk build and am up to level 14, I have a 32 AC I think and that means nothing.

    I started with 12 Constitution and cringed during character creation as I've never started anything with less than 16 Con before. However, with a +2 tome, +2 Con airship buff, HP shroud cloak and 6 toughness enhancements I finally feel less than squishy. Don't start with less than 12 Con, try for 14 if you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    At the very least I could maybe try to increase my diplomacy a bit to draw off attackers, so I'd only be mostly worried about AoE spells (and with such high saves and evasion, most of the time that wouldn't be a problem).
    Diplomacy is rarely a good idea. You are a melee character, if things aren't hitting you they could be hitting rogues (bad) or casters (very bad).

    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    As far as my low Strength though, if I grabbed maybe Weapon Finesse (so I actually hit things), wouldn't I only suffer maybe 5-10 less damage per attack? Like, if I had maybe 16 strength starting out, that's +3, and if I had Power Attack that'd add +5 (of course at the cost of attack bonus as well, which I might not even be able to afford losing even if I did have good strength). I realize that's a substantial amount, but we're talking maybe a 30-40% drop in damage dealing capabilities (compared to a pure DPS or something), for immensely boosted saves and AC.
    Weapon finesse is really only useful for rogues, as they get their sneak attack damage. It may seem like a few damage isn't that big, but when you start talking about crits it really adds up. I would not recommend weapon finesse unless you are making an AC build, which I don't think you will be able to pull off. Again, it is very difficult to get good AC past level 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    I also have Toughness, and plan on taking as many Toughness enhancements as possible.
    Excellent! It won't be enough though, get to 12 Con.

    My starting stats for my halfling Paladin/Monk (which can solo just about anything so far at level 14) were 15/15/12/12/12/12 with a 34 point build. For a drow build I would probably recommend 16/16/12/10/12/12. Take at least 3 monk levels to get fists of light for healing ki and good party buffs.

  14. #14
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    Thanks Chette, those are all very helpful suggestions.

    I realize this is quite a spread, but how would these work out for starting ability scores? I think it maintains the benefits to saves and AC of monk and paladin, while still having the higher STR and CON. Lets me get Power Attack, too.

    STR 14
    DEX 14
    CON 12
    INT 10
    WIS 14
    CHA 16

    And should I maybe drop STR to 12 and bump Dex up to 16 so it'll be easier to get Improved TWF later? I can increase STR to 13 at level 4 for power attack, and DEX to 17 at 8 for Improved (and eventually, Greater) TWF. All my other ability score increases would go into Wis and Cha.

  15. #15
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3rian View Post
    Thanks Chette, those are all very helpful suggestions.

    I realize this is quite a spread, but how would these work out for starting ability scores? I think it maintains the benefits to saves and AC of monk and paladin, while still having the higher STR and CON. Lets me get Power Attack, too.

    STR 14
    DEX 14
    CON 12
    INT 10
    WIS 14
    CHA 16

    And should I maybe drop STR to 12 and bump Dex up to 16 so it'll be easier to get Improved TWF later? I can increase STR to 13 at level 4 for power attack, and DEX to 17 at 8 for Improved (and eventually, Greater) TWF. All my other ability score increases would go into Wis and Cha.
    I think you are trying to do too much. This is a really thin build, and it doesn't work well unless you have access to tomes and airship buffs. If you want decent Charisma for smites and devine might, drop wisdom. You'll have less ki, but if you're in fire stance and hitting constantly you'll manage. Take the majority of your levels in Paladin if you go this route. If you want decent wisdom, drop charisma. You won't have the benefit of the Paladin skills, but will have more ki and DCs on you monk attacks. Take the majority of your levels in monk if you go this route.

    Since I'm assuming you don't have a lot of tomes lying around I'll revise my suggest for stats to 16/16/12/10/8/16. You can get a +1 dex tome relatively easily, or put a single level up into Dex if you can't, to get ITWF. Put the rest of your level ups into strength. With 16 Charisma you can get devine might II. I wouldn't bother getting your Charisma higher than 16, unless you go for DM III with 15 levels of Paladin. In that case I would really recommend holding out for a +2 tome. You won't need your 18 Charisma until you are at end game, where the likelihood of tomes dropping is significant.

    The most important thing is to decide now how many levels of what class you want and your feats so that you can make sure you meet all of the pre-requisites.

    I'm by no means an expert on Paladin/Monk builds, I've had mine for all of 8 days, but I certainly enjoy it. Good luck!

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