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  1. #1
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Default This is why Orien sucks sometimes

    Tempest Spine group looking for rogue. I send tell "I'll be your rogue." Get back, "What level?" I hit join. Get back, "Oh, too low."

    I'm a Wizard 8/Rogue 2 with unboosted (items only) 26 Search & 28 Disable Device, running with Heroism, a wand of Fox's Cunning (only have +2 INT item atm) and +5 tools for a L10 quest (L12 elite). Did I fail to mention that I've run the quest hundreds of times and know where all the traps are located?

    Stupid people who don't have a clue about characters or their abilities. It really ****es me off.

    Edit: Fixed typo.
    Last edited by Therigar; 08-24-2010 at 12:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    Since it is indeed common, much time is saved by telling the group leader that u know u can disable the traps on elite right from the begginning.
    Likewise the group leader can save everyone's time by stating so beforehand.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bloodstealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donfilibuster View Post
    Since it is indeed common, much time is saved by telling the group leader that u know u can disable the traps on elite right from the begginning.
    Likewise the group leader can save everyone's time by stating so beforehand.
    Hmm I really dont think it would of made a difference, the said leader obviously had no idea and most likely had a vision in his or here head that a pure lvl 10 rogue was the only option..... except many of those I ve come across genuinely wouldnt know where the boxes were, or in some cases not even know how to search for them

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  4. #4
    Community Member issiana's Avatar
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    I gave up on my beloved 1 rogue rest ranger builds a while back as noone seemed to understand that 1 rogue was all you needed (that and half aclue on how to actually do traps, lol)

    that said I've also being a big fan of pure rogues but the old servers have all but ignored them nowdays. perhaps orien may be the palce to finally allow pure classes to shine.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    If a group is looking for a trap monkey then there is no reason to look for a pure class rogue. With starting INT typically in the 12-14 range no pure class rogue can compete in search or disable device with a wizard that has splashed rogue.

    Pure class rogues are good for one thing -- damage. Not DPS per se because their damage comes from backstabbing. But, when the target is not immune to backstab and when the rogue does not have the aggression there is no class that does more potential damage on an attack.

    When looking for a trap monkey a ranger x/rogue 1 or wizard x/rogue 2 is almost certainly as capable as a pure class rogue. In the case of a wizard/rogue there is no question that they are as capable -- the question is, what rogue will be better?

    And, if you built a rogue to be better then what other value would it bring to the group? It is important to remember that there is only one trap in the game that requires such a high level of skill to either find or disarm. Considering it is on a chest that contains only standard loot it really isn't worthwhile to build a rogue for that purpose.

    Splashed rogue levels on paladins or barbarians is almost always for evasion. On rangers and wizards it is almost always for disabling traps. Not knowing that, and refusing to let a character into the group as a result, demonstrates ignorance.

  6. #6
    Community Member Bloodstealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If a group is looking for a trap monkey then there is no reason to look for a pure class rogue. With starting INT typically in the 12-14 range no pure class rogue can compete in search or disable device with a wizard that has splashed rogue.

    Pure class rogues are good for one thing -- damage. Not DPS per se because their damage comes from backstabbing. But, when the target is not immune to backstab and when the rogue does not have the aggression there is no class that does more potential damage on an attack.

    When looking for a trap monkey a ranger x/rogue 1 or wizard x/rogue 2 is almost certainly as capable as a pure class rogue. In the case of a wizard/rogue there is no question that they are as capable -- the question is, what rogue will be better?

    And, if you built a rogue to be better then what other value would it bring to the group? It is important to remember that there is only one trap in the game that requires such a high level of skill to either find or disarm. Considering it is on a chest that contains only standard loot it really isn't worthwhile to build a rogue for that purpose.

    Splashed rogue levels on paladins or barbarians is almost always for evasion. On rangers and wizards it is almost always for disabling traps. Not knowing that, and refusing to let a character into the group as a result, demonstrates ignorance.
    Not so sure on the rogue / ranger builds - I see more of them being average DPS and average trapmonkey - fine at low to middle levels but high level content and EPIC i see issues ahead cos your placing points in too many stats and skills to be effective, but thats just me and what i have seen over the years. Personally I wouldnt build any kind of trappy rogue with INT less than 16 anyhow - those that do are perhaps shortsighted in the build but its not my specialist class so I cud be way off here.

    However the Wiz /Rogue I definatley agree and its a favorite of mine - if players cant see the potential of that toon build for either function then like you say they are ignorant to how toon builds can best be utilises in a grp.

    On a side note tho - I fear the writing is on the wall for the rogue in this game as far as pure trapmonkey goes - the content coming through requires very little need for them and what is there can either be avoided, traps tunrned off by speaking to mobs, or set off cos its one hit, or a poorly constructed multiclass can do the job in most cases cos the search / DD is so low for the trap level - Thats of course if the content has traps.
    Locked doors and chests are now completelty bypassable by the riduculous DDO store items so where does the pure trapmonkey fit in...
    The measure of a well built trap monkey was the Cabal trapped chest.. but like you also say - is it really worth all the hassle now.
    Last edited by Bloodstealer; 08-23-2010 at 09:46 AM.

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  7. #7
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodstealer View Post
    Not so sure on the rogue / ranger builds - I see more of them being average DPS and average trapmonkey - fine at low to middle levels but high level content and EPIC i see issues ahead cos your placing points in too many stats and skills to be effective, but thats just me and what i have seen over the years. Personally I wouldnt build any kind of trappy rogue with INT less than 16 anyhow - those that do are perhaps shortsighted in the build but its not my specialist class so I cud be way off here.

    However the Wiz /Rogue I definatley agree and its a favorite of mine - if players cant see the potential of that toon build for either function then like you say they are ignorant to how toon builds can best be utilises in a grp.

    On a side note tho - I fear the writing is on the wall for the rogue in this game as far as pure trapmonkey goes - the content coming through requires very little need for them and what is there can either be avoided, traps tunrned off by speaking to mobs, or set off cos its one hit, or a poorly constructed multiclass can do the job in most cases cos the search / DD is so low for the trap level - Thats of course if the content has traps.
    Locked doors and chests are now completelty bypassable by the riduculous DDO store items so where does the pure trapmonkey fit in...
    The measure of a well built trap monkey was the Cabal trapped chest.. but like you also say - is it really worth all the hassle now.
    Your last bits are why ranger x/rogue 1 is acceptable for a trap monkey. Other than the Cabal chest on elite every trap is easily found and disarmed by a 12-14 base INT with gear and boosts. Rangers get their own boost to all skills so do not need the rogue skill boost (same, BTW, for human wizards if they really want to go that route).

    Wizards compensate by having higher base INT and, of course, by pouring all their stat increases into INT. So, for pure trap monkey either ranger/rogue or wizard/rogue is the way to go.

    The demise of rogues has been a thread on these forums for as long as I've been in the game. I will note, once more, that the real benefit of a rogue is their damage output. So long as the mob is not immune to backstabs nothing compares. Max STR, grab the TWF line with just enough DEX to qualify it, all else in CON. Ignore traps and locked doors/chests. Splash a level of ranger for bow strength and favored enemy or a level of monk for an extra feat and potential for upper limits AC or fighter for the extra feat (spent on khopesh). Then go kill stuff. That is the direction rogues should be headed in DDO considering the content.

  8. #8
    Community Member LordMond's Avatar
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    The problem encountered by the OP is one that has been around as long as there have been MMOs that allowed players to be something other than cookie-cutter builds: party leaders who are unwilling or incapable of thinking outside the box. If your character does not neatly comport with whatever that leader is looking for, chances are pretty high that you'll get /declined and no amount of 'splaining to him is likely to do any good whatsoever.

    Just take solace from the fact that it's their loss. Instead of taking you and getting on with the quest, they probably sat around waiting for that 'perfect' character to come along....and, during the wait, got no xp and got no loot.

  9. #9
    Community Member unscythe's Avatar
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    Players are inexperienced, its like 90% new players and 10% experienced players on the server at best.


    Alot of new players do not experiment either. The first month for me was playing with a pure fighter, and when I got bored, it was time to experiment. I splashed rogue and rolled up pure rogues. The rogue class was fun, and had something other classes did not, so it was fun and different.


    IMHO that player declining the OP, saved you an hour+ in slow questing/headaches.

    Pugs do not believe that Tempest Spine can be done in under 30 minutes. Myself and some of my friends ran through TS in 23 minutes on elite, while looting. Not a great accomplishment, but that means that we could of ran it twice on elite in the time it would take them to run the quest once.

    Pugging is abismal here, if I pug I expect to take a bit of time. If I put up a group for zerging I expect a time between fast and slow(pugging).

    Might be easier to start your own party or solo for the most part.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery amnota's Avatar
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    There are trap boxes in Tempest Spine??? Who knew?
    Some people are like Slinkies
    They don't really have a purpose
    But they still bring a smile to your face
    When you push them down the stairs

  11. #11
    Community Member Crazyfruit's Avatar
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    Well, most people wouldn't know you can disable traps as a non-full rogue unless they tried one themselves. Sometimes you gotta be the person to tell/show them

    The latest Kwiz ran into this a lot, but not my other rogue splashes before. Kinda odd

    There's a lot of systems & details in DDO - can't expect people to know everything. I wouldn't be surprised if most people think firewall is a caster's only damage spell these days.

  12. #12
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amnota View Post
    There are trap boxes in Tempest Spine??? Who knew?
    You can easily avoid any and all need to disable traps by pulling mobs into the traps themselves. The mobs turn the traps off and you can go about your business without ever taking damage.

    Most fun is the fire protected lever.

    The only other remotely problematic trap is the acid/poison combo. Usually a WF can run up the poison side to pull switches w/o a problem.

    Use to be that the locked doors was the main reason for a rogue. But it is too easy to open locked doors now days.

  13. #13
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    When i was playing the lower levels i lost count the ammount of times I had to argue with party leaders than you could still max out a skill as long as you had a class that had it as a class skill. I didnt even have a charactor with a rogue level and I knew that and I was (still am a new player 2). This happened on khyber and I think that its a problem on every server, its kinda unfair to say this is why orien sucks. People who dont know better but think they do. Like the ones that tell me I should be using a bow 24/7 cause your a ranger, or why are you using two weapons? you know you need a feat or you take a penalty to hit? Um cant you see the ranger icon with my name on it?

  14. #14
    Community Member Crann's Avatar
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    Your first hint should have been "TS group looking for rogue."

    Then you should have been happy you were declined and moved on, knowing you avoided a bad pug.
    This is what is great about Orien, the LFM's make the bad pugs easy to spot.

    Here are a few more to avoid that you find alot in the LFM's on Orien:

    Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a player level range 3 levels higher than the quest.
    Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a 5 level range of players
    Any LFM for a quest for "favor only" that has a cap lower than 20.

    I'm still having a great time pugging on Orien. I get what I expect, knowing that it is a less experienced population overall.

    Occasionally you have a bad one, you move on and find good ones.

  15. #15
    Community Member flynnjsw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Tempest Spine group looking for rogue. I send tell "I'll be your rogue." Get back, "What level?" I hit join. Get back, "Oh, too low."

    I'm a Wizard 8/Rogue 2 with unboosted (items only) 26 Search & 28 Disable Device, running with Heroism, a wand of Fox's Cunning (only have +2 INT item atm) and +6 tools for a L10 quest (L12 elite). Did I fail to mention that I've run the quest hundreds of times and know where all the traps are located?

    Stupid people who don't have a clue about characters or their abilities. It really ****es me off.
    Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnjsw View Post
    Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.
    I invented them.

    You are right, should read +5....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnjsw View Post
    Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.
    +1 tools actually give +3 skill
    +2 tools actually give +4 skill

    so a +4 tool gives +6 skill

  18. #18
    Community Member LordMond's Avatar
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    Personally I found plenty of +6 Tools playing WoW.........

  19. #19
    Community Member Bloodstealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crann View Post
    Your first hint should have been "TS group looking for rogue."

    Then you should have been happy you were declined and moved on, knowing you avoided a bad pug.
    This is what is great about Orien, the LFM's make the bad pugs easy to spot.

    Here are a few more to avoid that you find alot in the LFM's on Orien:

    Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a player level range 3 levels higher than the quest.
    Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a 5 level range of players
    Any LFM for a quest for "favor only" that has a cap lower than 20.

    I'm still having a great time pugging on Orien. I get what I expect, knowing that it is a less experienced population overall.

    Occasionally you have a bad one, you move on and find good ones.
    TBH - I dont really see it as an issue. Sure the PUG leader was most likely a little shy on experience, but may also of been a TR trying to squeeze that last drop of XP out of the quest but at the same time still being relatively inexperienced around how toons can be utilised outside of the pure cookie cutter builds.

    Still I actually think its not a bad thing that noobs, newbs etc put up LFM pugs cos it shows they are willing to step out of their comfort zone and try out something - which can only benefit them and us in the long run.

    The learning curves are steep in DDO so taking yourself away from the safety of an experienced group, where tbh you tend to just follow the crowd and then get pinged for making a silly error or called out for piking, shows a little bit of initiative on their part sometimes. But as I said previous I agree it most likely saved the OP from either a poor run or just a long (poor ) run but maybe we just need to look down the LFM's a bit more or put our own up... PUGS are PUGS and always will be, so expect the worse but try to enjoy it for what it is.. a game.
    Last edited by Bloodstealer; 08-25-2010 at 03:06 AM.

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  20. #20
    Community Member Bloodstealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMond View Post
    Personally I found plenty of +6 Tools playing WoW.........
    Well all I found was a lot of TOOLS, in WOW

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