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  1. #21
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Mental Toughness is required by the PrE...as are Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus: Ranged.

    If you want your PrE at level 6 those have to be your first three feats.


    I would, however, take Toughness at 9 since I like my hitpoints.
    I put toughness at lvl 12 mainly because it isn't until you hit Gianthold and the Vale that fortification and hitpoints become vital. Heck, even when cap was 12, plenty of people ran GH without it. But I don't want to suggest waiting for 15 to take it. IC:R is one of those feats that greatly increases DPS, particularly with the Silver Bow.

    But yes, the first three feats are specifically for the PrE. It's like Tempest's Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack progression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  2. #22
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    Nice guide, I like it. I agree with purg that emp healing and maximize feats is a popular and solid 3rd option for the AA who doesnt put the bow down. One might argue the guide is incomplete without it.
    I'm a dex guy and I like the finesse/pierce build but the PA slashing guy is going to argue more strength. It might be worth mentioning that stength level-ups are an option for these non finese builds.

  3. #23
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Very good guide. +1.

    But I do want to point out a couple things.

    Mainly about race choices.
    All races make good Rgrs IMO. But they each bring something different to the table.

    My favorite, and the one that makes the most obvious archer, is of course the Elf.
    The added damage to bows is noce, as is the Rapier/Longsword bonuses.
    The Enchantment saves bonus should not be overlooked, all thought I usually have too few AP to get more than I or II from this.

    I personally, like the Displacement Dragon Mark. Displacement is very, very good. And the chance to make a char that can self displace should definately be considered IMO. Also Invisibility is underappreciated. A very nice ability to have.
    Two feat cost is expensive though. So it's certainly not for everyone.

    Humans. Mostly for the feat. AAs are actually limited in feats, so it is very nice to have an extra one. And humans can have racial Toughness III. Something to be considered as well.
    Plus they have their own Dragon Mark options for diversity.

    Dwarves. Are just too awesome in DDO.
    Dwarves are tough, and have some real nice enhancements. too many to choose from actually.
    I've only made one Dwarve Rgr, and barely played him, but a duel Dwarven axe using Str Based Rgr would be nice.
    Even an AA one. As you really need to make a Rgr to use all his abilities IMO.

    Halflings. Not my favorite race, but Halflings are nice as just about anything.
    And one concept to consider is the Dragon Marked Halfling, who taked Rgr Devotion enhancments.

    WF. The other DDO uber race. But not quite as uber when made as pure Rgr.
    Still not bad at all though.
    Most people do not invest in either Wisdom or Charisma on Rgrs.
    A +2 tome from the DDO store, and a +6 Wisdom item would still make a fine Rgr.
    Something to note, Rgrs do not get evasion until lvl 9. You can make a WF with Adamantine body at lvl one, then swap it out as you lvl to 9.
    Meaningful AC below lvl 9 is easy to achieve still. And not a bad way to go.

    Drow. Underapreciated as Rgrs IMO.
    Rapier/SS is the pefect finesse TWF combo.
    Spell resistance is a very nice thing to have too. And their bonus skill points are not bad for Rgrs, if you think outside the box a little. (which I'll get to next)


    Skills:
    IMO, if you disregard stealth, you are sacrificing a very powerful weapon in your arsenal.
    Which also means that making an 8 Int rgr might be giving something up. So consider what skills you want at creation.
    Rgrs have lots of class skills. So making a rgr with a lot of skills is easy, and makes for a fun, versitile char.

    Wisdom: You already know that you need Wis 10 + spell level to cast spells.
    Rgsr get up to lvl 4 spells. So from that point of view, anything above 14 is a waste.
    But Rgrs get bounus SP from wisdom. Actually a lot of bonus SP.
    And they do have two(?) offensive spells with save DCs....based on Wisdom.
    I usually take 14 Wisdom at creation.....but that is actually excessive by most people's standards.

    Cha: It's not real important, but Cha adds to Wild Empathy save DCs. Something to consider. I keep wanting to see how good a high Cha rgr with Elemental Empathy could be. But that is mostly just a fantasy of mine that will never see the light of day.

    Cha also can be of use if you want Diplomacy. (or Bluff or Intimidate....and Haggle.)
    Diplomact, Bluff, and Intimidate are all useful at times, and even low numbers seem to work often enough on trash mobs to make it worth trying every now and then.

    But normally Cha should probably be a dump stat.
    (I usually go with a 10 Cha..but I hate negatives.)

    Feats: I'm kinda of the opinion that AA without Slayer Arrows is still a weak PRE. So taking Toughness early and delaying becoming a real AA is usually what I do.
    But then I'm also trying to juggle those dragon marks...
    Just a thought.

    Weapon Finesse: is nice. But if you are trying to go ranged most of the time anyway, you do not need it.
    Plus I like Long Swords.
    And other people might want a human with a Kopesh, or a Dwarf with an Axe.

    It is also worth noting that even though I love Dex. And make it my number one stat...especially as I lvl up.
    That Rgrs do not need a high Dex. For anything but hitting with a bow. And get Dex enhancments.
    So a Str based Rgr is a very valid option.

    That's all I can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  4. #24
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    I put toughness at lvl 12 mainly because it isn't until you hit Gianthold and the Vale that fortification and hitpoints become vital. Heck, even when cap was 12, plenty of people ran GH without it. But I don't want to suggest waiting for 15 to take it. IC:R is one of those feats that greatly increases DPS, particularly with the Silver Bow.
    Yes, I know.

    It's just my habit to take Toughness as soon as I can though.

  5. #25
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Very good guide. +1.

    But I do want to point out a couple things.

    Mainly about race choices.

    ...snip...
    I think you make some valid points for a tempest str based ranger, but the unparalleled king of AA is the elf. Like the drow, they get bonuses to rapiers. Dwarves are the kings of tempest builds, with WF close behind. Humans allow for the bonus feat (dragonmark should you choose), but lack the weapon enhancements of other races. Halflings...well, they give you one more ac, but don't really add to the AA.

    As for the dragonmarks, I think you hit on the problem when you talked about the feat selection. While rangers get a lot of free feats related to their combat, they don't get many feats to play around with otherwise. So to get the dragonmarks, you'd have to make some sort of significant cut to your combat, mainly at levels 15 and 18.

    Skills:
    IMO, if you disregard stealth, you are sacrificing a very powerful weapon in your arsenal.
    Which also means that making an 8 Int rgr might be giving something up. So consider what skills you want at creation.
    Rgrs have lots of class skills. So making a rgr with a lot of skills is easy, and makes for a fun, versitile char.
    I never really addressed skills, other than spot, because they are really more to the individuals playstyle. Rangers are a very skill endowed class. Even with an 8 int, you still get, what, 6 skill points per level? Enough for spot, hide, move silent, balance, jump (though you'd get the spell), heal, or any combination that you could want.

    Wisdom: You already know that you need Wis 10 + spell level to cast spells.
    Rgsr get up to lvl 4 spells. So from that point of view, anything above 14 is a waste.
    But Rgrs get bounus SP from wisdom. Actually a lot of bonus SP.
    And they do have two(?) offensive spells with save DCs....based on Wisdom.
    I usually take 14 Wisdom at creation.....but that is actually excessive by most people's standards.

    Cha: It's not real important, but Cha adds to Wild Empathy save DCs. Something to consider. I keep wanting to see how good a high Cha rgr with Elemental Empathy could be. But that is mostly just a fantasy of mine that will never see the light of day.

    Cha also can be of use if you want Diplomacy. (or Bluff or Intimidate....and Haggle.)
    Diplomact, Bluff, and Intimidate are all useful at times, and even low numbers seem to work often enough on trash mobs to make it worth trying every now and then.

    But normally Cha should probably be a dump stat.
    (I usually go with a 10 Cha..but I hate negatives.)

    Feats: I'm kinda of the opinion that AA without Slayer Arrows is still a weak PRE. So taking Toughness early and delaying becoming a real AA is usually what I do.
    But then I'm also trying to juggle those dragon marks...
    Just a thought.

    Weapon Finesse: is nice. But if you are trying to go ranged most of the time anyway, you do not need it.
    Plus I like Long Swords.
    And other people might want a human with a Kopesh, or a Dwarf with an Axe.
    As for ability points, I think I adequately stated my opinions on these in the OP, but I'm going to reiterate a few things here.

    Wisdom, while providing sp, is hardly something I'd sacrifice precious build points for, especially since a 10 wisdom with a 6 item will get you far more sp than you will need in a regular quest. The two offensive spells that you mention are spike growth (an honest joke of a spell, especially since it's a reflex save for 1d4 damage - or 1-4 damage for those new folks) and hold animal (useful at times, but never really set until you get that extra spell slot at lvl 20 that you don't know what to do with, since it looses out to barkskin or protection). Starting with a 10 wisdom, I have 484 sp before equiping my wizardry item for pre-quest buffs. Aside from the Abbot (who drains sp) I've never run out.

    (As a personal pet peeve, rangers in training, don't use mass camo on the party. If you want to buff yourself with it, fine. But do it away from the party. It's a useless buff for 99% of the players of this game in 99% of situations, and only adds frustration to seeing where your character is.)

    On to charisma. Again, I started with an 8 charisma. I can only thing of 1 quest where wild empathy is a down right game changer (Tomb of the Tormented). I have only failed, maybe, 10% of the time when I use the ability. Personal mileage may vary, but the typical AA will not have a whole lot of spare AP to get the Elemental Empathy (requires either elemental as FE with 1ap on extra empathy or Extra Empathy IV - a cost of 10 ap plus the 2 for elemental empathy). Same goes with Vermin Empathy. It's simply too cost prohibitive (unless you take FE elemental - a valid choice imo, or FE vermin - bad choice) for an AA who wishes to be effective in party. You need the AA Imbue Arrow line. You need the FE lines. You need the Dex lines. You want the Toughness line. You need the Bow damage and to-hit lines. Empathy is simply to costly.

    And I honestly can't see an AA wanting intimidate. Diplomacy, maybe. But the AA will want to shed aggro, not intentionally gather it.

    Yes, slayer arrows are the penultimate AA enhancement. But that's no reason to ignore the additional damage that the force, acid, fire, forceburst, and fear arrows bring to the table. If you delay becoming an AA until lvl 18, then you've not learned how to manage being an AA. And who doesn't love having every bow become ghost touched with the selection of force imbuing? In many ways, it's an overpowering ability at level 6.

    It is also worth noting that even though I love Dex. And make it my number one stat...especially as I lvl up.
    That Rgrs do not need a high Dex. For anything but hitting with a bow. And get Dex enhancments.
    So a Str based Rgr is a very valid option.

    That's all I can think of.
    I think you're thinking of a tempest build. If a ranger wants to be an AA in enhancements and feats, but builds like a tempest, then all you're doing is creating a build that will suck at both range and melee. Then you really do your party a disservice. A tempest shines in melee, but will pale in comparison to an AA at ranged combat, where they shine. Vice versa as well. For an AA, dex is key, with str playing a secondary role. Perhaps even terciary role to con. For tempest, str and dex are reversed. But if you try to grasp for both, you're going to fail at both.

    In my opinion at least.
    Last edited by Pwesiela; 07-23-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  6. #26
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    And I honestly can't see an AA wanting intimidate. Diplomacy, maybe. But the AA will want to shed aggro, not intentionally gather it.
    My Fighter AA trained Intimidate so that I can intimitank raid bosses like Suulomades in VoD in the need should arise. More versatility is good.

    I think you're thinking of a tempest build. If a ranger wants to be an AA in enhancements and feats, but builds like a tempest, then all you're doing is creating a build that will suck at both range and melee. Then you really do your party a disservice. A tempest shines in melee, but will pale in comparison to an AA at ranged combat, where they shine. Vice versa as well. For an AA, dex is key, with str playing a secondary role. Perhaps even terciary role to con. For tempest, str and dex are reversed. But if you try to grasp for both, you're going to fail at both.
    I personally think that STR and DEX are equally important, since STR adds to your damage, and ranged combat already has less damage than melee. Every little bit counts. It's very possible to get both over 30 by the end on an Elf.

    STR: 16 base + 5 levels + 6 item + 2 tome + 2 ram's might + 2 rage + 3 exceptional = 36
    DEX: 18 base + 5 enhancements + 6 item + 2 tome + 3 exceptional = 34

    And CON: 14 base + 2 tome + 2 rage + 6 item = 24

  7. #27
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    My Human went max str, high con, with heavy repeater and quickdraw. Max str and good con allows to me get into melee in raids and not worry about going squish, plus healing amp helps. Heavy repeater for between manyshots and special effects. Quickdraw and a returning vorpal with IPS is a nice ranged snipe ability. +5 damage boost before manyshot>Elf damage, and can be used with repeater or melee, or to boost skills and saves as needed. A tier III healing amp weapon and a good dr shield is good if you pull aggro and need to turtle a raid boss until the tank gets aggro back.

  8. #28
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    In my post above, I was mostly pointing out options.

    I mostly agree with your op on how to build an AA.

    I have a few different preferences, but those are just to suite my tastes, I don't try to pass them off as a better choice for most people.

    Anyway, just wanted to show possible options if someone wanted to go those routes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  9. #29
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I would never invest more than 6 points into constitution in a build except under very special circumstances.

    Just about all builds with a 6 point investment (that's 12 con for an elf) will see 400hp at level 20 with items and toughness enhancements. Those 4 extra points to get from 12 to 14 will represent less than a 2.5% boost to your HP which just isn't worth it imo.

    Strength is just as important as dexterity in a ranged strength shot based build and a 10 point investment into strength along with a 10 point investment into dexterity is going to get you the most bang for your buck. On a 28 point build that leaves 6 points for constitution and 2 points for wisdom for a well rounded AA.

    AA class selection wise i would ask for a mention of the divine casters as i have started to see quite a few divine based elven AA builds coming through the forums. I'm leveling up one at the moment (cleric 17 / wizard 1 / fighter 2) zen archery, manyshot, divine might III which is a blast to play. Requires a few tomes to be viable and 32 point builds however. Importantly, i am a viable primary healer while still having excellent AA DPS. I think this is the most important thing to stress with the AA. Ranged combat in DDO is gimp, if you want to do it, make sure you can do something else well as well.

  10. #30
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    What enhancements do I need as an AA? Thanks Mine is Drow Elf

  11. #31
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Have you had any experience w/ a dumped-dex build using more STR/WIS and Zen Archery?

    Something built like an exploiter perhaps; since Rangers get their combat feats w/o need for the attributes. Thief 1 / Monk 1 / Ranger rest. You could essentially dump DEX, INT and CHA within reason (though likely you'll have some points you could throw into one or the other).

  12. #32
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Have you had any experience w/ a dumped-dex build using more STR/WIS and Zen Archery?

    Something built like an exploiter perhaps; since Rangers get their combat feats w/o need for the attributes. Thief 1 / Monk 1 / Ranger rest. You could essentially dump DEX, INT and CHA within reason (though likely you'll have some points you could throw into one or the other).
    Any ranger based arcane archer absolutely should not splash to get the capstone at level 20 which a ranged dps simply cannot do without.

    What would the advantage of wisdom be over dexerity on the above? Costs you a feat to go wisdom, is harder to get bonuses in (race wise), will save is less valuable than reflex save (as rangers get evasion).

  13. #33
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Any ranger based arcane archer absolutely should not splash to get the capstone at level 20 which a ranged dps simply cannot do without.
    Incorrect.

    The attack speed increase of the capstone is rated at somewhere between 12% and 15%, and the set is at 10%. The two do not stack with one another.

    You can get by with the AA set from Shav instead of the capstone.

  14. #34
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Any ranger based arcane archer absolutely should not splash to get the capstone at level 20 which a ranged dps simply cannot do without.

    What would the advantage of wisdom be over dexerity on the above? Costs you a feat to go wisdom, is harder to get bonuses in (race wise), will save is less valuable than reflex save (as rangers get evasion).
    A level of monk+rogue would add 4 to reflex save right there, making up for 8 points of dex ... right? Monk also gives you a feat (even swap I think as you can use something like toughness). Could also have monk stances when meleeing; could be useful. Anyway, I had in mind Human for right now (eyeing Half-Orc later).

    Just thinking - maybe I'll work something up - but wondering if the archer experts (which I'm not) had any thoughts.

  15. #35
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    A level of monk+rogue would add 4 to reflex save right there, making up for 8 points of dex ... right? Monk also gives you a feat (even swap I think as you can use something like toughness). Could also have monk stances when meleeing; could be useful. Anyway, I had in mind Human for right now (eyeing Half-Orc later).

    Just thinking - maybe I'll work something up - but wondering if the archer experts (which I'm not) had any thoughts.
    First AA I suggest Pure Ranger. You can replace most of the effect of the capstone with the ToD set, but in order to do that you need to run ToD 'till you get the right ring...which could take a while.

    Then after you get the set, TR or LR, dropping two levels of Ranger if you want to. Rogue is nice, Sneak Attack + UMD = awesome.

  16. #36
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    A level of monk+rogue would add 4 to reflex save right there, making up for 8 points of dex ... right? Monk also gives you a feat (even swap I think as you can use something like toughness). Could also have monk stances when meleeing; could be useful. Anyway, I had in mind Human for right now (eyeing Half-Orc later).

    Just thinking - maybe I'll work something up - but wondering if the archer experts (which I'm not) had any thoughts.

    My AA was LR'd into an 18/1/1 as soon as alignment change became available. I do not regret dropping a broken capstone (which doesn't stack for with the ToD set) for full UMD, traps skills, and 65 self-buffable AC (don't even have a Chattering Ring yet). I really only use the bow for manyshot and in some missions I don't use it at all.

    When ranged gets it's "polish pass" maybe I'll change back in the TR but I have little faith in turbine making ranged more viable.

  17. #37
    Community Member Griphon's Avatar
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    Just a comment on Arrow type.

    Know the benefits of your Imbued Arrows and try to use it to the Max.

    Mix and match Bows with Imbued Arrows for greater effect.

    Using a Paralyzing bow? Use the Terror Arrows! The shaken and Fear effect reduce enemy's save vs the paralyzing. And you won't hear much in the way of complaints from 'fearing' the enemy so they're running away.

    Using the Silver Longbow? Be sure to use the Burst arrows to make the most of the nice crit range that stacks with Improved Crit! Flaming burst or Force burst that goes off so much more often really helps your DPS.

  18. #38
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griphon View Post
    Using the Silver Longbow? Be sure to use the Burst arrows to make the most of the nice crit range that stacks with Improved Crit! Flaming burst or Force burst that goes off so much more often really helps your DPS.
    Slaying Arrows are still more DPS than any other imbue, no matter your crit range. Before that it is Acid.

  19. #39
    Community Member Griphon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Slaying Arrows are still more DPS than any other imbue, no matter your crit range.
    Yess... But you have this HUGE level range between the Awesomeness of Slayer Arrows and your first Burst Imbued arrows. It's not like you start with the Slayer Arrows, eh? Hopefully once they get the Slayer Arrows they're already using a Green Steel Lightening II bow.

    In those lower than 18 lvl range that give you the Burst Effect, the Silver Longbow and Burst Imbused (Force or Fire) are still your Prime DPS combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Before that it is Acid.
    Seriously? 'Acid'? Have you been taking a hit of it before posting, maybe? (I kid! I kid!) Acid was a good 'get me through' to the Bursting arrows. It amounted to 1d6 extra damage each arrow beyond the force arrows, simply because you rarely take your aim off the main target so that the acid ticker is constantly being reset.

  20. #40
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griphon View Post
    Yess... But you have this HUGE level range between the Awesomeness of Slayer Arrows and your first Burst Imbued arrows. It's not like you start with the Slayer Arrows, eh? Hopefully once they get the Slayer Arrows they're already using a Green Steel Lightening II bow.
    Not every player can finish a T3 Shroud item by the time they cap, especially if they're new.


    Seriously? 'Acid'? Have you been taking a hit of it before posting, maybe? (I kid! I kid!) Acid was a good 'get me through' to the Bursting arrows. It amounted to 1d6 extra damage each arrow beyond the force arrows, simply because you rarely take your aim off the main target so that the acid ticker is constantly being reset.
    It's been a while since I've played my AA, so I may be mistaken, but I thought I remembered the DoT from Acid procing when you hit mobs with Improved Precise Shot.



    Regardless, I do agree with Terror Arrows + Paralyzing Bow for when you need to do CC. Only way to use Terror Arrows in a group.

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