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  1. #1
    Community Member redraider's Avatar
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    Default Official thread: Combat Expertise and 2x spell points

    It's official Turbine. The change to combat expertise to stay on yet cost 2x spell points AND having it multiply with the metamagic feats included just really sucks.

    I mean it REALLY sucks.

    A heal with quicken and emp healing is usually 55 sps. Turn on combat exp and it's 110.

    Cure light with emp healing is 20. With combat exp it's 40.

    Yes, your math is great, but we think you might have made an error in the formula.

    No one asked for this kind of implementation. It doesn't effect lag.

    Help Devs - Can you fix this to make sense?

    Yeah, I know this was discussed before Update 5 went official, but we can't let them forget it's an issue we want fixed.
    Last edited by redraider; 07-19-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    I must agree I absolutely hate this change, though I bet most CE users love it.

    It really ****es on healing-ac builds, fvs, paladin and cleric alike.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by redraider View Post
    Yeah, I know this was discussed before Update 5 went official, but we can't let them forget it's an issue we want fixed.
    The core problem is that Turbine is reluctant to do the easy fix, because it would appear clumsy and inelegant.

    Here are their options:
    1. Combat Expertise includes two icons you can use, one for classic mode (deactivated on casting) and one for new mode (double spellpoints). The problem is that it appears amateurish to configure feats this way, and would be briefly confusing for some players.

    2. Create a "configure" icon to open a custom option dialog for feats on your character sheet, allowing you to adjust its usage in detail. For example, someone could set Power Attack to only be +6/-3, Extend Spell to work on Haste but not Hold Monster, and Combat Expertise to deactivate on casting. This would be the best outcome (as it would improve several other game aspects), but it would call for programmer effort they don't have.

    3. Change CE to neither deactivate on casting nor increase spellpoint costs, but instead to remove the AC bonus for a few seconds each time you cast a spell. Although the amount of programmer effort for this choice would be much less, it would still probably be more than they can afford.

    4. Revert CE to the old version, except that clickies, scrolls, wands, and supernatural abilities aside from casting a spell don't interact with it in any way.

    5. Keep Combat Expertise like it is. This is only bad for the small number of players who have both CE and use spellpoints for things aside from longterm buffs, which isn't many people.

    6. Revert Combat Expertise to the old version. This would make it a lot worse for the majority of CE characters, who would lose their ability to freely use clickies, scrolls, and supernatural abilities.

  4. #4
    Community Member Nott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    3. Change CE to neither deactivate on casting nor increase spellpoint costs, but instead to remove the AC bonus for a few seconds each time you cast a spell. Although the amount of programmer effort for this choice would be much less, it would still probably be more than they can afford.
    Actually, I think that would be an easy solution for them to provide. They would just need to create a new self-"buf" that reduces AC, and when you begin to cast a spell, if CE is on you would also have this buf applied. Doesn't sound like much development effort at all to me, and given the normal amount of time Turbine tests new features, we can safely assume testing would not take more resources.

  5. #5
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    While I'm now actually find using CE workable, after speccing out of it before because I hated how it kept turning off all the time, I think this
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    4. Revert CE to the old version, except that clickies, scrolls, wands, and supernatural abilities aside from casting a spell don't interact with it in any way.
    variant would be better than the solution they implemented. I suppose the variant they picked was the easier way though; now they could just change it to never turn off and then they likely just pasted in the metamagic SP cost multiplier function, and presto.
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  6. #6
    Community Member ArtosKincaid's Avatar
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    They should change it to double the base cost of the spell and not include metamagic costs. You get the desired effect (a more expensive spell) but without making it prohibitively expensive.
    Arthad - paladin, got the SoS, got the seal, someone pass me the shard plzkthx
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  7. #7
    Community Member Levonestral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtosKincaid View Post
    They should change it to double the base cost of the spell and not include metamagic costs. You get the desired effect (a more expensive spell) but without making it prohibitively expensive.
    It was like this at one point on Lam. The base was doubled, THEN the meta's were added. I was happy when I saw it. When it went live, they had changed it to what were seeing now, double the amount INCLUDING the meta's
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  8. #8
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Wasn't the whole idea of putting limits on CE to keep spell casters from having a constant bonus to AC with no downside? CE and spell casting aren't supposed to go together. It seems lots of people want their cake and eat it too. Really the only borked aspect of the current CE is that some potions behave as if you are casting a spell, which turns off CE. This needs to be fixed.

    AD's option number 3 seems the best solution. It basically is the same as the current implementation, except the computer automatically "clicks CE back on" after a set time (3 or 6sec is what i'd like to see), instead of the player clicking his buttons. However one problem with excluding scrolls,etc is that umd evasion tanks, who have no sp, will be able to spam heal scrolls, etc without any downside (and I got two such builds). Include everything but the potions.
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  9. #9
    Community Member TheDjinnFor's Avatar
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    Wow. +5 AC on a caster, so broken. Must be fixed now!

    Yeah.
    Last edited by TheDjinnFor; 07-20-2010 at 09:01 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDjinnFor View Post
    Wow. +5 AC on a caster, so broken. Must be fixed now!

    Yeah.
    When I only had casters, I thought the same thing. I once started a thread stating that CE didn't even need any deactivation/penalty since caster AC was so meaningless. People were quick to point out the many melee, battle-caster and umd builds that could really benefit from CE if it had no penalty. Now that I got a few of my own, I can see how it can be a great benefit with absolutely no downside if CE had no deactivation or penalty when casting a spell.

    I would take it on my clr/mnk if there were no penalty for casting with CE on. I could spam heal scrolls with no detriment on my two umd/evasion builds. You don't have to think outside the box very much to see how it would be a great benefit to some.
    Last edited by krud; 07-20-2010 at 09:14 AM. Reason: typo
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  11. #11
    Community Member ArtosKincaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    When I only had casters, I thought the same thing. I once started a thread stating that CE didn't even need any deactivation/penalty since caster AC was so meaningless. People were quick to point out the many melee, battle-caster and umd builds that could really benefit from CE if it had no penalty. Now that I got a few of my own, I can see how it can be a great benefit with absolutely no downside if CE had no deactivation or penalty when casting a spell.

    I would take it on my clr/mnk if there were no penalty for casting with CE on. I could spam heal scrolls with no detriment on my two umd/evasion builds. You don't have to think outside the box very much to see how it would be a great benefit to some.
    Yes, of course it would provide a benefit. But would it legitimately make any of those builds broken?
    Arthad - paladin, got the SoS, got the seal, someone pass me the shard plzkthx
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  12. #12
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtosKincaid View Post
    Yes, of course it would provide a benefit. But would it legitimately make any of those builds broken?
    Nothing when considered by itself is enough to be considered 'broken'. It just adds to the statflation. I don't have much farmed gear for AC on my clr/mnk, yet i'm already able to get up into the 60s. I'm sure those who try can get 80+ with CE. My intimitank would love to be able to cast/umd freely while in stance/CE. Constant displacement/heal scrolls without losing any AC.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Xaearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    AD's option number 3 seems the best solution. It basically is the same as the current implementation, except the computer automatically "clicks CE back on" after a set time (3 or 6sec is what i'd like to see), instead of the player clicking his buttons. However one problem with excluding scrolls,etc is that umd evasion tanks, who have no sp, will be able to spam heal scrolls, etc without any downside (and I got two such builds). Include everything but the potions.
    Yes, let's kick the monks below the belt yet again.
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  14. #14
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
    Yes, let's kick the monks below the belt yet again.
    let me clarify. supernatural abilities should be excluded as well. I think any kind of spell casting should deactivate it though. Any spell whether from cast, scroll, wand, clickie should deactive.
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  15. #15
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    <Chuckles>

    So let me understand you predicament.
    In Pre-Update 5 mode if you cast a spell on your character with Combat Expertise enabled your character was knocked out of Combat Expertise. Thus as a caster it was only good as long as you weren’t casting.
    In Post-Update 5 mode if you cast a spell on your character with Combat Expertise enabled it costs you double the spell points.

    So while the change has allowed your character to keep CE running you are now using more Spell Points. To me that seems like a fair trade off.
    I will add that for my DoS Paladin I really like it, now I can take care of my own curses and keep Divine Favor and other needed spells and spell-like abilities up without worrying about bringing CE back up.

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  16. #16
    Community Member KKDragonLord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    <Chuckles>

    So let me understand you predicament.
    In Pre-Update 5 mode if you cast a spell on your character with Combat Expertise enabled your character was knocked out of Combat Expertise. Thus as a caster it was only good as long as you weren’t casting.
    In Post-Update 5 mode if you cast a spell on your character with Combat Expertise enabled it costs you double the spell points.

    So while the change has allowed your character to keep CE running you are now using more Spell Points. To me that seems like a fair trade off.
    I will add that for my DoS Paladin I really like it, now I can take care of my own curses and keep Divine Favor and other needed spells and spell-like abilities up without worrying about bringing CE back up.
    It is only fair for those who don't care about SPs or about spending money on SP pots.
    As changes go this could have gone a lot better because lowering SP by Half is not fair in anyway shape or form for casters or healers. Thats the problem.

  17. #17
    Community Member Xaearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKDragonLord View Post
    It is only fair for those who don't care about SPs or about spending money on SP pots.
    As changes go this could have gone a lot better because lowering SP by Half is not fair in anyway shape or form for casters or healers. Thats the problem.
    Is it really that hard to understand?

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    If you think it should be otherwise, argue that. But arguing that the devs accomplished their goal is just silly.
    At least now the classes that aren't full-time casters (or as far as monks go, at all) can make use of it as it was intended.
    Mror Hold, 2nd in command - Thelanis
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  18. #18
    Community Member GhoulsTouch's Avatar
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    I don't think spells cast include wands....

  19. #19
    Community Member TheKaige's Avatar
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    No sign. Like everyone is saying, spell casting and CE don't go together. Be glad they let you cast spells at all.
    Let like stacking bonuses scale down tiers; i.e. wearing a +2 dodge/excep. item and a +2 dodge/excep. item currently is only +2; let the 2nd +2 item imitate a +1 item, giving you +3. Allow this for all stacking bonuses (Heal. Amp 30->20->10) Absorption (20->15->10)etc. Lowest tier bonuses (10 Heal Amp, 10 absorb, 1 dodge) do not scale down ever.

  20. #20
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Considering the gimpage of every really high AC caster build I have ever seen there is little real game play reason to have CE function in a 'special' manner with casting.

    CE is really useful if you are going to be melee'ing. A caster can melee in a mediocre fashion...one who has all the equip, stat allocation, and feats for a high AC can melee in a truly gimp tastic fashion.
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