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  1. #1
    Community Member Bart_D's Avatar
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    Smile Spellsinger Arcane Archer with rogue skills (Bard 16, Rogue 2, Ranger 2)

    The proposed build attempts to do a lot of different things, and I don't know if it gets sufficiently good at any of them. Please help evaluate and refine!

    The idea is to (almost) buff and cast like a full bard, (almost) handle traps and locks like a full rogue, while getting decent ranged DPS from arcane archer. This build can be seen as a variant of a Bard16/Ranger2/Fighter2 arcane archer like this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=36

    In addition to arcane archery with most relevant feats and spellsinging, the build has strong bard healing and rogue skills. It has (almost) maxed level 16 bard songs and healing capability, maximum ranks in concentration, disable device, perform, search, umd - and about half in balance, open lock and spot.

    Among the things it lacks are the feats Toughness, Shot on the Run and Empower Healing (has Maximize instead). Some of these might replace ImpCrit:Ranged and/or Improved Precise Shot, not sure what would be best. It only has a BAB of +15 which is not optimal for Manyshot.

    Feats taken: PBS, Precise Shot, Maximize, WF: Ranged, Manyshot, IC: Ranged, Imp Precise Shot. Maximize (or Empower or Mental Toughness) is needed for Spellsinger. PBS and WF:R are needed for Arcane Archer. The 2 ranger levels give Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, TWF and a weak favored enemy. The 2 rogue levels give evasion, a little sneak attack damage and opens up trap and lock skills.

    ... so, do you think this will hold up in actual play or is it trying to do too many things at the same time?

    Note: The order of class levels is an attempt to get the most benefit of class skills so some character levels may be somewhat painful. I could not find all Imbue Arrow enhancements in the character planner so some enhancements will have to be removed, possibly Elven Ranged Damage II. I have not considered equipment since I don't know what is possible. An Int +2 tome at level 7 could for example be used for better haggle, spot or open lock skills.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Elf Male
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 164
    Spell Points: 624 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 21
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             15                    19
    Dexterity            16                    21
    Constitution         12                    12
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             14                    15
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 17
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               7                    16
    Bluff                 2                     2
    Concentration         3                    28
    Diplomacy             2                     2
    Disable Device        6                    25
    Haggle                6                     9
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  3                     5
    Intimidate            2                     2
    Jump                  6                    11
    Listen               -1                     1
    Move Silently         3                     5
    Open Lock             7                    15
    Perform               n/a                  25
    Repair                2                     2
    Search                6                    27
    Spot                  3                    13
    Swim                  2                     4
    Tumble                7                     9
    Use Magic Device      6                    27
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+3)
    Skill: Perform (+5)
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+2)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+2)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+3)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Skill: Disable Device (+5)
    Skill: Open Lock (+5)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+3)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    Skill: Disable Device (+2)
    Skill: Perform (+2)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+3)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
    Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery III
    Last edited by Bart_D; 07-02-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Corrected feats based on unbongwah's comments

  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I did something pretty similar, although I went Virtuoso instead of Spellsinger so I could take Toughness.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Elf Female
    (2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 206
    Spell Points: 479 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 9
    Reflex: 21
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             15                    20
    Dexterity            17                    20
    Constitution         12                    12
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             12                    13
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 17
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
    
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Music of Makers
    Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead
    Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso I
    Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
    Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
    Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Bard Perform I
    Enhancement: Bard Perform II
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    The good thing about my build, I think, is I managed to squeeze in all the archery feats I wanted plus Toughness; the bad thing is I had to sacrifice all metamagics. Similarly, the good thing about Virtuoso in this build is I could take it without needing a feat to get it; the bad thing is I had to take Extra Song IV, which costs 10 APs to hit. Don't have enough points left to take any of the healing enhs or an extra +2 DEX enhs.

    BTW, you mentioned Prec Shot and IPS, but I don't see them listed in your build.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bart_D's Avatar
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    Last things first. unbongwah is absolutely right about the feats, i messed up. Edit: Dropped Extend from feats in first post to get both Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot.

    Question: Playing a trapper bard, how useful do you find evasion and the rogue skills?

    Another question: How badly does the archery animation affect your ability to cast/scroll/wand in combat?

    About choice of PrE... Is Virtuoso beneficial at all? I haven't played one and never use fascinate much with my (straight human) warchanter so I can't really evaluate the benefits of more songs and stronger fascinate.

    If Warchanter allowed WF:Ranged as a prerequisite I'd find a way to fit in Power Attack because the extra attack, damage and DR song are all really good. Fitting in both feats seems like it would hurt archery too much so I picked Spellsinger which only 'costs' one (pretty useful) feat. But even that may be too costly in feats...

    What I might do is to start out with PBS - WF:Ranged - PrecShot - Manyshot at levels 1-3-6-9, and try virtuoso to see if I like to use fascinate. Then at levels 12-15-18, I'll take 3 of Toughness, IC:Ranged, Extend, Maximize, ImpPrecShot depending on what I seem to lack the most (Maximize if i want to try out Spellsinger).

    Comments please!

  4. #4
    Community Member Geonis's Avatar
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    Running a Spellsinger version of this currently and just hit 16. I am about to drop the PrE so I can pick up PS/IPS. The song effect and 100SP is just not worth the damage loss from not having IPS, but I hadn't thought about Virtuoso, so that might be an idea, but the APs are real tight too..... Need to think on it more, but the basic idea is definitely doable.
    Hi, I play Generic Fantasy RPG Online, formerly known as DDO.

  5. #5
    Community Member Bart_D's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up

    I have actually started playing, gotten to level 7 and it's a lot of fun. I'm squishy (6 hp per level, 12 con, no toughness) but can really do pretty much everything and it's just, well - fun

    I'm now trying to decide whether i should get an int+2 tome or not. The extra skill points would go in to skills like balance/haggle/spot/jump which will currently end up 7-12, not sure it's worth it or not...?

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart_D View Post
    Question: Playing a trapper bard, how useful do you find evasion and the rogue skills?
    I love Evasion. I would never play a trapmonkey without Evasion. I want Evasion on every char I make with high Reflex. In fact, I would say Evasion is the real benefit of rogue 2 to this build; trapmonkeying is just the bonus.
    Another question: How badly does the archery animation affect your ability to cast/scroll/wand in combat?
    It definitely slows you down. I've read Quickdraw shortens the delay, but I've never taken it and there isn't really room to spare for it here.
    Is Virtuoso beneficial at all?
    I love using my CC songs, but you have to be with a group which works well together, because Fascinate et al is a "soft" stun which breaks as soon as monsters get hit. Not much point in Fascinating an entire mob only to have a caster drop Firewall or Flame Strike on them and "wake" them all up.

  7. #7
    Community Member Mercureal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart_D View Post
    Thanks for the heads up

    I have actually started playing, gotten to level 7 and it's a lot of fun. I'm squishy (6 hp per level, 12 con, no toughness) but can really do pretty much everything and it's just, well - fun

    I'm now trying to decide whether i should get an int+2 tome or not. The extra skill points would go in to skills like balance/haggle/spot/jump which will currently end up 7-12, not sure it's worth it or not...?
    This is a bit late so you may not need the comments now, but proceeding anyway.

    Balance is primarily a melee-oriented skill. I think there may be a few non-combat occasions where it comes in useful, but not many. If you don't expect to do a lot of hand to hand fighting, you probably don't need to squeeze extra points for this.

    Haggle is a nice boost to sale prices that adds up over time, but isn't necessary. Most of your money is going to come from selling items on the AH, and by the time you hit around level 11 or 12 money starts to flow pretty readily.

    Spot is useful for seeing hidden enemies, and is necessary if you want to be serious about traps, but the level you need for most traps scales gradually. Not counting the small number of very difficult traps that require maxed skills and top gear, a spot of around 28 was all I needed for level 15-16 quests.

    Jump is another nice-to-have skills that isn't strictly required. It's also the easiest to buff because Rangers and Arcane casters have the Jump spell that gives you +10/+20/+30 to Jump, depending on caster level, and you can find potions and scrolls of Jump to boot.

    Finally, remember that you can find items to boost just about any skill (UMD excepted), starting at +1 skill point and Minimum Level 1 and going all the way to +15 at level 15. Plus you can get stacking boosts to skills from spells like Greater/Heroism, the Voice of the Master item from Delera's, and the Ranger/Rogue skill boost enhancement. Short answer, more skill points are always nice but if you choose not to get the Tome I think you'll still be able to manage what you want to do.
    Last edited by Mercureal; 07-21-2010 at 01:03 AM.
    ---------------------------------------
    * Thelanis - Mercure *
    C.L.A.W. (Council of Law and War)
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  8. #8
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    This Build is viable??
    Bard 16 / Rogue ? / Barbarian ?
    What lvl in Rogue ad Barbarian?

  9. #9
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    Default Love yer build

    Just gotta say, I made my own build based on your AA Spell Singer build, and I must say it's a blast! Thank you for opening my eyes to Bard multiclass awsomeness!

    /Lockeshank "Loki" The Shadowdancer

  10. #10
    Community Member jennick52's Avatar
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    Looking at these builds I have one question. Are you going twf or thf, or just sticking with the bow and using the bard spells to buff/heal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorz View Post
    And remember kids....Fist can be a verb
    Quote Originally Posted by Friend's Wife
    I'm not gonna stab you, just cut you.
    Da Rulez of PvP

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennick52 View Post
    Are you going twf or thf, or just sticking with the bow and using the bard spells to buff/heal?
    In the case of my build, THF; if you can squeeze in the Valenar enhs, a (keen or Min2) falchion would be best. But since there's no room for any melee feats, your melee DPS will be subpar. That's why the Bardcher in my sig takes ftr 2 instead of rogue 2; much as I like Evasion & trap skills, you really need those two extra feats if you want to do halfway decent melee DPS.
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
    Other build threads: Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
    My Build Index: a Motley Menagerie of Original Rapscallions, Pugilists, and Gimps!

  12. #12
    Community Member jennick52's Avatar
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    The way I played bards in the past works wonders with the AA PrC. I just sit back out of melee and plink away with my pea shooter. I asked for the lower levels, before all the AA arrows start kicking in. I also love having a character with evasion and the side perk, a rather large one too, of being able to pick locks and disable traps is a huge plus.
    Last edited by jennick52; 04-03-2011 at 08:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorz View Post
    And remember kids....Fist can be a verb
    Quote Originally Posted by Friend's Wife
    I'm not gonna stab you, just cut you.
    Da Rulez of PvP

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