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  1. #21
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    Whatever is available first?

  2. #22
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    On my favored soul I have had to always endure healing a 'hate tank' in almost all raids.
    The extreme use of resources and extra chaos is a bit much.
    The extra time it takes to kill the boss is a bummer when weighed against the resources.

    Only once or twice have I had to heal a real good hate tank, the rest just have a bouncing health bar.

    I stopped playing my favored soul for this reason, tired of the cost of keeping them up. I never got to heal a intim tank, always stuck with hate tanks.



    On my intim-tank, from norm to elite in VoD I can intim and hold 99% of the time (unless someone is screwing around with deception (fixed this update) or a ranger on the other side of the room.)

    On my intim tank, I fight a bit, but find it is better to hold him so everyone can go full bore. I can self heal from norm to elite and need no healing at all.


    Let me repeat that so it is very clear. My intim tank does not need a healer for any reason at any difficulty of VoD when he is tanking.



    I have also done the orthons (2nd wave) AND sully at the same time to help group.

    In ToD I have been in near wipes when the hate tank fails and my intim tank has had a group or orthons, horoth, and sully at the same time at the portal while everyone raises and regroups. While self healing.


    Having played both a healer and an intim tank, in my personal opinion, you are crazy to not use a 'good' intim tank.

    Hate tanking we always wait around for the aggro. We have to wait for the re-aggro. We have to watch the healers burn through scrolls and mana like crazy.


    Why in the world would you not use an intim tank (unless the tank is garbage)?


    Not having to wait for a tank to get aggro or reacquire it allows TREMENDOUS damage, way more than any one character could ever do in the same time.



    My vote is intim tank. I would rather have that massive DPS hate tank beating on the boss the entire time along with the party, at no resource cost to the clerics.




    On part 4 shroud I always hear, 'which cleric is taking round 1' and so on. On my intim tank I hit one side and intim while fighting. Very little damage should go to anyone except for a little AoE and when the blades come in. Anyone taking damage is standing between me and the prey, its their fault for that.
    Part 5 can be that way too, without deception or ranging, without fail.


    Hound, any difficulty, using intim to keep Xzzy on me instead of the little hounds makes it super easy to heal through...even elite.


    as a healer, why would you not want a character specifically built to hold all aggro, high healing amp, high ac, high damage mitigation doing the tanking. IT IS WHAT AN AC TANK w/INTIM IS BUILT FOR.
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  3. #23
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    alternatively, you could go with an all ac tank group with good healing amp and just surround him and go to town.
    Not having to worry about whether he spins, moves, turns, etc.

    Now that would be awesome. Especially for the one cleric or bard healing everyone.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    alternatively, you could go with an all ac tank group with good healing amp and just surround him and go to town.
    Not having to worry about whether he spins, moves, turns, etc.

    Now that would be awesome. Especially for the one cleric or bard healing everyone.
    ive wanted to run one of those sometime, but there are just not enough ac tanks out there.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    On my favored soul I have had to always endure healing a 'hate tank' in almost all raids.
    The extreme use of resources and extra chaos is a bit much.
    The extra time it takes to kill the boss is a bummer when weighed against the resources.

    Only once or twice have I had to heal a real good hate tank, the rest just have a bouncing health bar.

    I stopped playing my favored soul for this reason, tired of the cost of keeping them up. I never got to heal a intim tank, always stuck with hate tanks.



    On my intim-tank, from norm to elite in VoD I can intim and hold 99% of the time (unless someone is screwing around with deception (fixed this update) or a ranger on the other side of the room.)

    On my intim tank, I fight a bit, but find it is better to hold him so everyone can go full bore. I can self heal from norm to elite and need no healing at all.


    Let me repeat that so it is very clear. My intim tank does not need a healer for any reason at any difficulty of VoD when he is tanking.



    I have also done the orthons (2nd wave) AND sully at the same time to help group.

    In ToD I have been in near wipes when the hate tank fails and my intim tank has had a group or orthons, horoth, and sully at the same time at the portal while everyone raises and regroups. While self healing.


    Having played both a healer and an intim tank, in my personal opinion, you are crazy to not use a 'good' intim tank.

    Hate tanking we always wait around for the aggro. We have to wait for the re-aggro. We have to watch the healers burn through scrolls and mana like crazy.


    Why in the world would you not use an intim tank (unless the tank is garbage)?


    Not having to wait for a tank to get aggro or reacquire it allows TREMENDOUS damage, way more than any one character could ever do in the same time.



    My vote is intim tank. I would rather have that massive DPS hate tank beating on the boss the entire time along with the party, at no resource cost to the clerics.




    On part 4 shroud I always hear, 'which cleric is taking round 1' and so on. On my intim tank I hit one side and intim while fighting. Very little damage should go to anyone except for a little AoE and when the blades come in. Anyone taking damage is standing between me and the prey, its their fault for that.
    Part 5 can be that way too, without deception or ranging, without fail.


    Hound, any difficulty, using intim to keep Xzzy on me instead of the little hounds makes it super easy to heal through...even elite.


    as a healer, why would you not want a character specifically built to hold all aggro, high healing amp, high ac, high damage mitigation doing the tanking. IT IS WHAT AN AC TANK w/INTIM IS BUILT FOR.
    1 distinction here. You talk about hate tanks like they have no ac. A true hate tank should have good ac, otherwise they really arent a tank. What you refer to here is big dps, using dps (not hate) to hold agro.

    Ive had several occasions to use my high ac hate tank to tank vod and it was just as smooth as my intimitank. No waiting for agro, no expensive healing etc. It is very easy for a "good" hate tank to hold agro. Basicly by the time sully is "pulled" you have more than enough headstart to hold agro, everyone can go to town just as easily as on an intimitank.

    The way hate works (as stated in an earlier post) is you have to out hate only 1 other pc beating on his back, the one with the most dps. So long as your dps+hate combine for > then the biggest dps'r in your group, you will never lose agro.

    Wf'd palys can produce the most hate, though a wfd fighter can produce a bunch as well.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Levonestral's Avatar
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    Personally I find there is no single "best option" for ALL raids, but instead I find the "best option" is actually different depending on the raid itself and also strongly depends on what strategies and group makeups you use during those raids.

    Various factors come into play: Raid setting (N/H/E), number of players in the raid (1-12) and how willing you are to wait for the "perfect" group.

    For VoD itself, since this was the OP raid of question, I find a well built AC based Intim/Hate tank can easily handle the task allowing the raid to be run without it being a drain on resources assuming the correct strategies are used to make use of their features available to the group.

    Cursing is certainly a problem. The hate tank needs to have good saves, if not, he'll just spend his entire time cursed which is just annoying to whoever is stuck healing him. Intimitanks get a benefit from blocking that blocks most of the cursing effects (once in a while I've seen a curse sneak in) which gives them a nice advantage in this case.

    A straight up "DPS tank" with no AC can quickly become resource intensive headache although is a very effective option should you not have one the above builds available. The usage of a WF tank allows you to avoid the cursing problem, but also requires your arcane(s) to do the "healing" which they may or may not have the spells to accomplish.

    It's all a matter of adjusting and adapting your strategies based on what you have available to you at the time.

    Having done many VoD's myself using all kinds of various methods with everything from 2-12 players, I'd say the following list of options:

    The well built AC Intimitank would prevail over all the other options, especially on the higher settings like elite because their blocking significantly reduces the cursing problem (in most cases entirely removing the risk)

    The well built AC hate tank works best in cases where you are short manning (2-6 players) and are low on spare DPS bodies. Cursing becomes a larger problem on higher settings, but for the most part is still manageable.

    The WF/arcane work well, but requires both your WF tank to be the heaviest hitter AND having an arcane with the spells required to heal them and the desire to do that job. This would work well in the higher settings also since cursing wouldn't be as big a problem assuming the WF tank can actually maintain the aggro correctly.

    If nothing else is available, go with the heaviest hitter in the group and watch his curses best you can.
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  7. #27
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    A good intim is like hitting the "easy button".

    If you're not taking out Sulu then everyone can go max DPS on Horoth without waiting for the Hate Tank to generate aggro and/or gimping your DPS so you don't risk stealing aggro.

    If you are killing Sulu, then you just leave a rogue on Horoth with the intim in case he spins around for a second. It only requires 1 healer on the intim, so the other can focus solely on the Sulu party. If you use a hate tank, there's a much higher need for a third healer and therefore less DPS.

    Notice though that I said "good intim". A crappy intim will let him spin around a lot or not have enough Hit Points to take a disintegrate.


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  8. #28
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    1 distinction here. You talk about hate tanks like they have no ac. A true hate tank should have good ac, otherwise they really arent a tank. What you refer to here is big dps, using dps (not hate) to hold agro.

    Ive had several occasions to use my high ac hate tank to tank vod and it was just as smooth as my intimitank. No waiting for agro, no expensive healing etc. It is very easy for a "good" hate tank to hold agro. Basicly by the time sully is "pulled" you have more than enough headstart to hold agro, everyone can go to town just as easily as on an intimitank.

    The way hate works (as stated in an earlier post) is you have to out hate only 1 other pc beating on his back, the one with the most dps. So long as your dps+hate combine for > then the biggest dps'r in your group, you will never lose agro.

    Wf'd palys can produce the most hate, though a wfd fighter can produce a bunch as well.
    In reality though, my FvS has had to heal flesh and WF barbs who hate tank with no AC, seemingly no DR, and they just stand there and their health bar drops as quick as I can heal, quickened, with my favored soul til out of mana, then I chug pots.

    Maybe your group, that you run with, do it that way. I think usually it is you doing it though for them.

    In all my FvS encounters I pretty much have macho man taking 1000 points of damage every other second.

    When I use my own intim tank, no one needs to heal me, on horoth I have someone wanding or free light wounds (FvS) just incase of the disintegrate fail.


    I have rarely ever seen a 'hate' tank not soak up a ton of mana pots and at the same time making us all wait when it turns or to get aggro....Very rarely do I encounter such a good hate tank.

    As a healer, a good ac toon all the way....in my opinion.
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  9. #29
    Community Member GlorkTheInvader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade66 View Post
    A good intim is like hitting the "easy button".

    If you're not taking out Sulu then everyone can go max DPS on Horoth without waiting for the Hate Tank to generate aggro and/or gimping your DPS so you don't risk stealing aggro.

    If you are killing Sulu, then you just leave a rogue on Horoth with the intim in case he spins around for a second. It only requires 1 healer on the intim, so the other can focus solely on the Sulu party. If you use a hate tank, there's a much higher need for a third healer and therefore less DPS.

    Notice though that I said "good intim". A crappy intim will let him spin around a lot or not have enough Hit Points to take a disintegrate.
    VoD, ToD, same thing, right? :P


    Anyway, Ikem you know I'd take you over any of these newfangled "hate tanks" anyday. <3
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  10. #30
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    In reality though, my FvS has had to heal flesh and WF barbs who hate tank with no AC, seemingly no DR, and they just stand there and their health bar drops as quick as I can heal, quickened, with my favored soul til out of mana, then I chug pots.

    Maybe your group, that you run with, do it that way. I think usually it is you doing it though for them.

    In all my FvS encounters I pretty much have macho man taking 1000 points of damage every other second.

    When I use my own intim tank, no one needs to heal me, on horoth I have someone wanding or free light wounds (FvS) just incase of the disintegrate fail.


    I have rarely ever seen a 'hate' tank not soak up a ton of mana pots and at the same time making us all wait when it turns or to get aggro....Very rarely do I encounter such a good hate tank.

    As a healer, a good ac toon all the way....in my opinion.
    You kinda missed the whole point. A wfd barb is not a hate tank. A wfd paly fighter or ranger can hate tank. In order to be a hate tank, you must rely on hate to hold agro, NOT just dps. They are different. Wfd have hate enhnacements to boost hate, this is unavailable to raged barbs (turns it off when raged) so a wfd barb, by defintion, cannot be a hate tank.

    A hate tank should have ac, or its just a melee imo.
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  11. #31
    Community Member BattleCircle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningDownTheHouse View Post
    I resent that!
    My wf barb's ac is in the low 20's fully raid buffed and raged.

    That said, none of the vod runs he's tanking (almost all), turns out to be expensive. Maybe I'm just lucky.
    20's ?

    I think I'm sitting around 12 or 13

    but when you hit like a truck it doesn't matter

  12. #32
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlorkTheInvader View Post
    VoD, ToD, same thing, right? :P
    Hey, who changed that T to a V?

    For VoD, it's even better to go with an intim over a hate tank. Again, you don't need to wait for hate tank to establish aggro or gimp your DPS in any way. You can pretty much wand-whip an intim through that raid even on hard or elite. The intim can grab snot-rocket aggro and orthons too. Intims rarely, if ever, get cursed since they are always shield blocking.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleCircle View Post
    20's ?

    I think I'm sitting around 12 or 13

    but when you hit like a truck it doesn't matter
    yea u hit like a truck, but then u have to be constantly healed. costing alot of resources. even if u had a 50 ac (which is what ikem has standing with a greatsword) on a barb that would be fine
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  14. #34
    Community Member MrWizard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikem View Post
    yea u hit like a truck, but then u have to be constantly healed. costing alot of resources. even if u had a 50 ac (which is what ikem has standing with a greatsword) on a barb that would be fine
    raid buffed, especially with epic gear, I do not see why a fully geared barb should not be in the 70s while frenzied...or even 6 more with uncanny dodge activated in bursts.

    Even so, they will hit most of the time, but that little bit on the boss could help.
    And during trash mobs it should, along with blur/displace, pretty much negate most if not all damage.

    but to suggest such a thing is heresy on the forums ....
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    raid buffed, especially with epic gear, I do not see why a fully geared barb should not be in the 70s while frenzied...or even 6 more with uncanny dodge activated in bursts.

    Even so, they will hit most of the time, but that little bit on the boss could help.
    And during trash mobs it should, along with blur/displace, pretty much negate most if not all damage.

    but to suggest such a thing is heresy on the forums ....
    yes... i was just saying that 13 or even 20 is just pathetic
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  16. #36
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    With considerations of all the bad things,that may happen.
    Nothing better than a high AC/intmi-tank, with effective healing amp. If it appears, the campaign is headed towards failure. The AC/intmi-tank can gather and control , most of the aggro. Giving party, better chance for recovery.

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  17. #37
    Community Member Lewcipher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay View Post
    Depends on what is there at the time. Rather than wait for an intim... just take highest DPS guy and tank him. If there is an intim available... it is my first choice, provided the intim is no fail and the ac is reasonably high. If the Intim is not no fail, it is better to hate tank him.

    Higher difficulty settings like Elite, a good intim makes it all easy.
    What about a WF bard with 68 intim? And a max DR of 45?

  18. #38
    Community Member Astars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWizard View Post
    raid buffed, especially with epic gear, I do not see why a fully geared barb should not be in the 70s while frenzied...or even 6 more with uncanny dodge activated in bursts.

    Even so, they will hit most of the time, but that little bit on the boss could help.
    And during trash mobs it should, along with blur/displace, pretty much negate most if not all damage.

    but to suggest such a thing is heresy on the forums ....
    To get hit is the purpose of a high end wf barb: just think of all the guards going off (steam, disint, salt) and add the dod DR kicking in all the time

    Don't gimp the wf barb with ac

  19. #39
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    If its a no fail intim then take him as the entire dps of the raid group can be used as soon as the orange light goes on. If the intim doesnt have enough for a no fail then you should hate tank, preferably a WF.

    The problem is how much intim is needed on elite (for Hound as well) I have only run into about 6 -7 intims on my server that have it that high, that play on a regular basis.

    As a cleric I always want an intim for VoD because it saves a ton of resources. I rarely drink pots with an intim tank on hard.

    Playing my intim with enough for no fail I say intim because I let the healers focus on all the smushy folks when the devils and Orthons appear. I usually take the first round of Orthons, then snag Sulu and take him to the corner. I dont take more than 10-15% dmg until the first round of devils. I know it doesnt make that much difference for normal if you have an all lvl 20 group but on elite it is the difference between the healers drinking a few pots versus running out of pots.

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