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  1. #81
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    I've never posted in this thread but linked to it multiple times. I just want to say it's a great template. One thing I really like about it is with the feat selection a person could try all 3 PrEs (Maximize for SS, Extra song 4 for Virt). Granted a SS isn't ideal in this setup but with SS II I could see value in always having spell points.


    I don't think Virt II is as bad as some are saying.

    Pre U7 WC I > SS I > Virt I

    Post U7 the gap is closer. They do different things but each can bring something to the table.

    Personally when U7 hits my TWF bard will most likey switch to Virt II. GH song every 5 minutes or spend 5 min at the start for 40 min GH? Beholders are a rare time where it could be helpful but really a AC song will do the trick. Not to mention Virt II can make them dance at a distance. The %5 DS is better for THF, and the chance that I could be killed in 1 hit does not appeal to me. Medium armor does little for me because I have a decent dex score and will probably never have epic marlith. I have a ton of rapiers and masters touch for anything else. I would like more hit points but most of the big battles I spend healing. Really if I was sure I would never go back to WC, I could switch WF for toughness.


    That being said post U7 if I can convince my self to spend the $13 on HO, I would go THF HO similar to the classic rocker build. THF HO Bards look really good.

  2. #82
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthios888 View Post
    Everything got stronger, just not by as much or in the same ways that we talked about before. Just changing out the Arcane Spell Failure augment on my bard's Epic Marilith Chain will likely translate into more hit/dam down the line as I am able to fit in more DPS equipment.

    Likewise, a 3-5% DPS increase from the doublestrike song is substantial (I imagine around 10-15 DPS on a pure build like this... comparable to giving Ninja Spy II to everyone in the party). It's just not as sexy as something that gives bigger numbers, like Kensei. Really, let's be honest that what we all want is bigger numbers.

    I guess it's also good to keep in mind that there is still another tier... I am just disappointed it was not available to us this time around.
    Yes, I do want bigger numbers of course but that is not the whole issue with the 2nd tier pres. I was especially disappointed with the Spellsinger one in the sense that the focus of it is all wrong. I do not need a higher spell penetration, but rather higher dcs yet we got a higher spell penetration. I do not need to give myself or other builds more mana, but rather spells or songs that can mimic the mass hold effect or at least web's lingering aoe. How about a more powerful focused heal effect. If I can not get those on a personal level at least I can buff somebody else where they could use it, but instead its a little more spell points for me and someone else. Darn that is not what my spellsinger needs we all can drink pots or use supplements. More Umd and concentration are you kidding me. My umd will be 85trillion after 20 deaths I will still be able to no fail a resurrection scroll grr..
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  3. #83
    Community Member valorik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    I've never posted in this thread but linked to it multiple times. I just want to say it's a great template. One thing I really like about it is with the feat selection a person could try all 3 PrEs (Maximize for SS, Extra song 4 for Virt). Granted a SS isn't ideal in this setup but with SS II I could see value in always having spell points.


    I don't think Virt II is as bad as some are saying.

    Pre U7 WC I > SS I > Virt I

    Post U7 the gap is closer. They do different things but each can bring something to the table.

    Personally when U7 hits my TWF bard will most likey switch to Virt II. GH song every 5 minutes or spend 5 min at the start for 40 min GH? Beholders are a rare time where it could be helpful but really a AC song will do the trick. Not to mention Virt II can make them dance at a distance. The %5 DS is better for THF, and the chance that I could be killed in 1 hit does not appeal to me. Medium armor does little for me because I have a decent dex score and will probably never have epic marlith. I have a ton of rapiers and masters touch for anything else. I would like more hit points but most of the big battles I spend healing. Really if I was sure I would never go back to WC, I could switch WF for toughness.


    That being said post U7 if I can convince my self to spend the $13 on HO, I would go THF HO similar to the classic rocker build. THF HO Bards look really good.
    Mind telling me what exactly virtuoso brings to the table?

    Enthrall- Really not good, like at all.
    Slightly longer songs- virtuoso's don't really get anything I care about making longer
    Reggening songs- same, what're you using all those songs for?
    Hp regen song- meh, kinda nice but nothing compared to even just tier 1 ss or warchanter...

    Really the only thing that's ever been that appealing is the easy access to music of the makers/ music of the dead...

    I'm just confused as to what people think virtuoso brings to a table other than a waste of ap.
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  4. #84
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valorik View Post
    Mind telling me what exactly virtuoso brings to the table?

    Enthrall- Really not good, like at all.
    Slightly longer songs- virtuoso's don't really get anything I care about making longer
    Reggening songs- same, what're you using all those songs for?
    Hp regen song- meh, kinda nice but nothing compared to even just tier 1 ss or warchanter...

    Really the only thing that's ever been that appealing is the easy access to music of the makers/ music of the dead...

    I'm just confused as to what people think virtuoso brings to a table other than a waste of ap.
    - Enthrall > fascinate so any place you would use fascinate you have enthrall to take it's place. The debuff is there and the chance to stay enthralled when hit make it better.

    - The HP regen song was pretty nice. It hits every second for a small amount. It's not going to replace big heals but will sure help with keeping everyone topped off. You won't have to stop and heal and potentially be at full health without slowing down. I wish the heals were increased with the bard enhancements (chance to crit and devotion type). Healing amp does improve the amount healed.

    - Capering is awesome. I know people a bashing it but it is really sweet. It "casts" as fast as an OID but has a range that is a mile long. It can break with damage making it not as good as OID when the target is dancing. There are times when I am trying to get to a target that has aggro on someone else or who is running. My current solution at times is great shout hoping I can land a stun, or run after them. Caper is a song so you won't slow down when you "cast" on the move (or shouldn't). This will give me time to reach the target. If it breaks free I am already in range for OID. Other examples are if there is a caster far away causing grief you can dance (possibly sneak/invis dance) before they get extra spells off.


    You are right I will have a ton of songs, and they will regen which will be awesome. That means I can use capering/enthrall more and not worry about not having enough songs to buff the party. My bard is a twf pure bard (currently WC). In tough battles I tend to heal more than dps due to lack of hit points.

    It's not that Virt II are so much better, it's that WC II brings less to my build. I most likely won't use reckless, I have a ton of Rapiers already, GH song is not worth it (sing every 5 min or cast and have it last for 40min), and I am happy with my DT armor. I would basically gain 10 hit points. Switching to Virt improves my healing, gives me enthrall and caper, and potentially lets me drop WF for toughness (adding 44 hp to my toon). At the end of the day if I switch I lose +1/+2 for Insp Courage, but being pure I really lose +0/+1 compared to 80% of WCs.


    IMO the WC II of U7 will mostly be to the advantage of THF bards. There is more gain to dps due to Double strike. THF feats are also getting buffed for non full bab toons. HOs will give the dps boost. They just have a lot going for them. In fact my goal is eventually to make a HO THF Pure WC II Bard with the Classic Rocker template.
    Last edited by Valindria; 10-12-2010 at 12:53 PM.

  5. #85
    Community Member Anthios888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    IMO the WC II of U7 will mostly be to the advantage of THF bards.
    For me, it's all about the party. The purpose of this thread was to put out a template for a rounded DPS bard with the best possible buffs along with healing, fascinates, and otto's. Justifying changing to another PrE by saying that all warchanters splash doesn't help. In the case of this build, losing warchanter would be losing 2 damage, DR/5, and 3-5% DPS for the whole party. That's a lot! It didn't stop being a lot with U7.

    The PrE did not stop being a very strong enhancement line for bards who are melee focused or party buff focused. This build is both, and I will never argue that it does not lose party DPS to change PrEs.
    Last edited by Anthios888; 10-12-2010 at 12:43 PM.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthios888 View Post
    For me, it's all about the party. The purpose of this thread was to put out a template for a rounded DPS bard with the best possible buffs along with healing, fascinates, and otto's. Justifying changing to another PrE by saying that all warchanters splash doesn't help. In the case of this build, losing warchanter would be losing 2 damage, DR/5, and 3-5% DPS for the whole party. That's a lot! It didn't stop being a lot with U7.

    The PrE did not stop being a very strong enhancement line for bards who are melee focused or party buff focused. This build is both, and I will never argue that it does not lose party DPS to change PrEs.
    Warchanter is most definitely the best PrE from a damage standpoint for this build.
    Spellsinger now becomes the best healing PrE for this build as it expands your blue bar over time by a metric ton.
    Virtuoso now becomes an even more powerful solo/short-man version for this build.

    The additions made to Spellsinger/Virtuoso make them even more viable as alternatives to WC for this build. From a strict dps standpoint though you're correct - there is absolutely no comparison. WC'er all the way.

  7. #87
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthios888 View Post

    For me, it's all about the party. The purpose of this thread was to put out a template for a rounded DPS bard with the best possible buffs along with healing, fascinates, and otto's. Justifying changing to another PrE by saying that all warchanters splash doesn't help. In the case of this build, losing warchanter would be losing 2 damage, DR/5, and 3-5% DPS for the whole party.

    The PrE did not stop being a very strong enhancement line for bards who are melee focused or party buff focused. This build is both, and I will never argue that it does not lose party DPS to change PrEs.
    I did not mean to take away from your thread. I think the classic rocker template is amazing. I wouldn't suggest turning the classic rocker into a Virt. In fact I think WC II is the best fit for what you are trying to do.

    My comments were saying that Virt II is not as bad as people are saying.

  8. #88
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    Love this build.

    I've taken WCII today now Update 7 is out, wondered what everyone else was dropping to get it.

  9. #89
    Community Member Anthios888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduri View Post
    Love this build.

    I've taken WCII today now Update 7 is out, wondered what everyone else was dropping to get it.
    Hey. Glad you are enjoying the build. I was pretty excited to get warchanter II on my bards. As far as APs, they're a bit tight, but you can probably lose Human Improved Recovery 3 (and possibly 2) without noticing, or drop a bit from your lingering song or life magic. You would know better than I whether you prefer your healing (pick life magic) or melee (pick improved recovery) role.
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  10. #90
    Community Member GreenGurgler's Avatar
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    Nice build, I have been working one of these up for a few days and it is so much fun. I love the love that Bards bring to any group and having alot of DPS on top of that just makes it better.

    Any thoughts on how Horc would work with this build?

    Better DPS with THF but lower CHA ?

    Anybody try it yet?
    Last edited by GreenGurgler; 10-25-2010 at 06:59 PM. Reason: spelling
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  11. #91
    Community Member Anthios888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGurgler View Post
    Nice build, I have been working one of these up for a few days and it is so much fun. I love the love that Bards bring to any group and having alot of DPS on top of that just makes it better.

    Any thoughts on how Horc would work with this build?

    Better DPS with THF but lower CHA ?

    Anybody try it yet?
    H-Orc is a sure winner with this build. It's just 2 cha less, so that's not a big deal - basically just -1 UMD. Similar to the warforged template, but with more dps from the +4 racial damage enhancements and +4 strength.
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  12. #92
    Community Member Noobian's Avatar
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    Default Thumbs Up!

    Just wanted to say thanx muchas for the Template. First post, first bard too, Suljak, just made 12 on Argo (took WC II as well...jury's still out on that). Love the pure DPS bard build as my first Bard. He's a nice change from my other toons :-)
    So much to learn, only so much time in the day...

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  13. #93
    Community Member Mourngrimm's Avatar
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    I never considered running a Bard before....Dunno why...just didnt...But the title "Classic Rocker" got my attention. I have a thriving Classic Rock band playing every weekend here in California...Casinos, Weddings, Fairs, Clubs etc...So the title got me hehe. I'll try one out. New experiences are always welcome. Could you post the differences for a HOrc? I have Zero Bank I'm starting from scratch....Been out for a year so I'm basicaly a newb again. (Band Sched lol) but I have Vet and VIP status and 32 pt builds. BTW also running your Rockan Robbin Monk...NICE! When I see you post a build I pay attention....Impact and Melkior the same way. I've tried it on my own this time with a Horc pure 2H fighter. I'm doing okay 6th so far, but I've never had a toon past 11th so my experience is limited.
    Thanks for the build!
    Be Nice until it's time to NOT be nice..

  14. #94
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mourngrimm View Post
    I never considered running a Bard before....Dunno why...just didnt...But the title "Classic Rocker" got my attention. I have a thriving Classic Rock band playing every weekend here in California...Casinos, Weddings, Fairs, Clubs etc...So the title got me hehe. I'll try one out. New experiences are always welcome. Could you post the differences for a HOrc? I have Zero Bank I'm starting from scratch....Been out for a year so I'm basicaly a newb again. (Band Sched lol) but I have Vet and VIP status and 32 pt builds. BTW also running your Rockan Robbin Monk...NICE! When I see you post a build I pay attention....Impact and Melkior the same way. I've tried it on my own this time with a Horc pure 2H fighter. I'm doing okay 6th so far, but I've never had a toon past 11th so my experience is limited.
    Thanks for the build!
    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    What I am probably going to do:

    20 THF HO Bard WC II (AKA Classic Rocker Template)

    20 STR
    8 DEX
    16 CON
    6 INT
    8 WIS
    12 CHA

    1 Power Attack
    3 WF
    6 Extend
    9 Toughness
    12 Imp Crit
    15 Quicken
    18 Maximize/Empower Heal

    4 skill points per level into:
    Perform, UMD, Concentration, Balance (adding haggle, jump, or something after level 7's +2 INT tome)

    Serious smashing power with some casting versitility. Easy to get stats

    STR 35 (20 +5 Levels +2 HO +2 tome +6 Item) +2 rage spell
    DEX 8
    CON 24 (16 +2 Tome +6 Item) +2 rage spell
    INT 6 +2 tome
    WIS 8
    CHA 22 (12 + 2 Bard +2 Capstone +6 item)
    My goal ^

    Take all WC pre reqs, HO THF Damage, HO Str, and any heal boosting APs you can fit.

  15. #95
    Community Member Mourngrimm's Avatar
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    Thanks!...I'm gonna roll it up when I get home tonight....5 minutes to go! lol
    Be Nice until it's time to NOT be nice..

  16. #96
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Yay New planner is out.
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Valindria's HO Classic Rocker
    Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Male
    (20 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 282
    Spell Points: 641 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 10
    Reflex: 11
    Will: 11
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             20                    29
    Dexterity             8                     8
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence          6                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             12                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               3                    21
    Bluff                 1                     4
    Concentration         7                    22
    Diplomacy             1                     4
    Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                1                    22
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                 -1                    -1
    Intimidate            1                     8
    Jump                  5                     9
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently        -1                    -1
    Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
    Perform               5                    27
    Repair               -2                    -1
    Search               -2                    -1
    Spot                 -1                    -1
    Swim                  5                     9
    Tumble               n/a                    0
    Use Magic Device      5                    27
    
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    Level 17 (Bard)
    
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    
    Level 19 (Bard)
    
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
    Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
    Enhancement: Greataxe Training
    Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
    Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
    Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
    Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song III
    Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Adjust as needed. I ended up doing Concentration until level 15. At 15 I took quicken and put 2 points in haggle until the end (I think 3 at haggle at 20 taking 1 away from balance). Heals are a little less (song magic 3 and scroll mastery 2) but DPS should be good. Leaves room if you want to respec to try out Virtuoso or Spellsinger.


    Spells:
    Code:
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Master's Touch
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Spell (2): Blur
    Spell (2): Rage
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Focusing Chant
    Spell (2): Invisibility
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Spell (3): Haste
    Spell (3): Good Hope
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Spell (3): Displacement
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Level 10 (Bard)
    Spell (3): Remove Curse
    Spell (4): Dimension Door
    Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
    Spell (5): Greater Heroism
    Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Spell (1): Sonic Blast
    Spell (5): Summon Monster V
    Spell (6): Heroes Feast
    Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance
    Level 17 (Bard)
    Spell (2): Glitterdust
    Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
    Level 18 (Bard)
    Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
    Level 19 (Bard)
    Spell (4): Break Enchantment
    Spell (6): Greater Shout
    Level 20 (Bard)
    Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic

  17. #97
    Community Member Anthios888's Avatar
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    Default Build Update - Half Orcs

    A few updates to the build:

    1. ROCKER HOs - Half Orc template posted on the first page.

    2. Warchanter II updated: Including new AP suggestion, gear updates (epic claw set), medium armor, inspire recklessness, GH song, HP totals, and weapon proficiency.

    3. Table of Contents added, for easy thread navigation. The table of contents provides direct links to posts in the thread about specific issues.
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  18. #98
    Community Member Dark-Star's Avatar
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    1. ROCKER HOs - Half Orc template posted on the first page.
    Aww... I was hoping it was going to be called the Hooker! Rocker Ho will have to do
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  19. #99
    Community Member Irinis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Star View Post
    Aww... I was hoping it was going to be called the Hooker! Rocker Ho will have to do
    Not the Classic Ho?
    Please split the class forums into REAL subcategories this is a jumbled mess.

  20. #100
    Community Member Mourngrimm's Avatar
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    Hmm...Gonna havta re-create mine as a Female...since it's a HO now.....If I play name games with my wife's name will she be offended? lol. She's also the lead singer in our band and I KNOW she's gonna see this ....Ah well...I like it when she smacks me around hehe.
    Be Nice until it's time to NOT be nice..

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