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  1. #1
    Hamfather totmacher's Avatar
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    Default An Open Solution to Raid Loot Distribution

    It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how do you distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (raid leader, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having everyone agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

    It's been my experience that people tend towards keeping loot that drops in their name (that's fine and all, not my cup of tea) so I think we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem I'm trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

    You might recognize these scenarios:

    1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
    2) Raid leader puts some condition on raid loot: you shouldn't have one already, you need the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, you should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for barb/ftrs, not off-tanks like pallies)
    3) Person #1 puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Person #2 after a large plat sum is offered in secret

    I've been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, everyone has their own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

    So anyway, that's the problem but who cares because what's the solution? What I'm proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

    So say a scenario like this occurs:

    * Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
    * Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
    * Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
    * Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
    * Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

    Just an idea, you could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what they were getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. I view it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    The "" emoticon typically suggests that humor is intended.

  2. #2

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    Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

    If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.

    Especially now that TR is in place, you will see more and more players grabbing gear that they are planning to use in the future.

    If you have issues with raid loot distribution, blame the loot table mechanism that is in place, not the player.

  3. #3
    Hall of Famer & Hero DoctorWhofan's Avatar
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    Argo Raid Loot Rule: All your lootz belong to the Mad God.


    So I was told.
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  4. #4
    Hamfather totmacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakee View Post
    Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

    If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.

    Especially now that TR is in place, you will see more and more players grabbing gear that they are planning to use in the future.

    If you have issues with raid loot distribution, blame the loot table mechanism that is in place, not the player.
    i've always believed this is a lazy way of dealing with the "new" loot system in this game

    if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    The "" emoticon typically suggests that humor is intended.

  5. #5
    Community Member Eladiun's Avatar
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    I like this method...

    Do what you want with your loot but expect to be judged by your peers. If your greed outweighs their need to bring you along on future raids don't come to the forums and cry about it.
    Last edited by Eladiun; 05-07-2010 at 01:08 PM.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Newtons_Apple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how do you distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (raid leader, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having everyone agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

    It's been my experience that people tend towards keeping loot that drops in their name (that's fine and all, not my cup of tea) so I think we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem I'm trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

    You might recognize these scenarios:

    1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
    2) Raid leader puts some condition on raid loot: you shouldn't have one already, you need the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, you should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for barb/ftrs, not off-tanks like pallies)
    3) Person #1 puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Person #2 after a large plat sum is offered in secret

    I've been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, everyone has their own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

    So anyway, that's the problem but who cares because what's the solution? What I'm proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

    So say a scenario like this occurs:

    * Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
    * Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
    * Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
    * Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
    * Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

    Just an idea, you could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what they were getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. I view it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...
    This gives me the LoL's.

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  7. #7
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorWhofan View Post
    Argo Raid Loot Rule: All your lootz belong to the Mad God.


    So I was told.
    And you shall be rewarded for following this law!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
    For someone to decide what to do with loot that dropped for him is obviously completely fine, except in the unlikely event that promises to the contrary were made beforehand.

    It's technically possible for the developers to add a server-software mechanism to allow players to enforce such promises on each other (although they could only cover the few most popular possibilities). But it's quite hard to devise something that would reduce abuse without creating other opportunities for more of it, especially since it's so hard to define what "abuse" might be. The game's loose control of character resources further complicates matters (Who's paying for all those mana pots??)

    A better way to approach it might be a way for players to enter an agreement into a text log others can view, and to associate the eventual distribution of items with that log, so that players have a way to demonstrate to each other that a person might have gone back on a loot promise. But it's still very hard to get that right.

    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."
    It's hard to be sure that someone really looked at the contract though... and it feels bad to click through something like a Microsoft EULA just to join a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    So say a scenario like this occurs:
    * Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
    * Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
    * Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
    * Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
    * Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."
    Since that is a rather important case, it might be better for the developers to just create a special mode to enforce that condition...

    Something like a toggle the raid leader can use before starting, and which is visible to other players, which disables directed reassignment in chests. Instead you can only reassign to a player you choose randomly. Furthermore, if you leave the instance any remaining loot is reassigned randomly to players still there.

    That would mostly solve it, but leave behind a problem where two people try to wait out everyone else so they can assign by choice. (To avoid that you'd have to get even more fancy, and have a timeout on passing)

  9. #9

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    I have lived by this rule for as long as the new rules have been in place, regardless of how others play
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  10. #10
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Hasn't A.O.K. been disbanded yet?

  11. #11
    Community Member lucas13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainer View Post
    Hasn't A.O.K. been disbanded yet?
    their awesomeness is still around thank blah

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed
    That just makes no sense...if you're robbing a bank, you can safely assume that money will be in the vault. When raiding or doing loot runs (Icy Raiments for example), you never know what is going to drop (if anything).

    So would you expect members of a raid in the Shroud to put up large scales for roll if only 1 drops? By your reasoning, the person who gets the scale is being unfair to the rest of the group by not putting it up.

    Hey...but each to their own...if this system works for you and you can get people to subscribe to it when joining your raid group - more power to you!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakee View Post
    Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

    If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.
    That doesn't cover all the possibilities, though. Even if you accept (as most people do by default) that anything the server gives you is yours to control, that doesn't necessarily imply that anything assigned to you by other players should be equally under your control. There's the major problem of rolling for something you don't want to take.

    Consider this example:
    We have an Epic VON6 LFM with 5 barbs and 4 spellcasters. Three buddies or guildmates decide to join together, and they're 2 casters and 1 barb. The Shard of SOS drops for a caster, and he lets everyone roll for it, which all 6 barbs do. But his two caster buddies also roll on it, giving him triple the chance of winning as any other barb has.

    That will feel unfair to the other 5 barbs, and possibly also to the guy putting it for roll. But can we say that the two casters didn't deserve that opportunity to gear up their pet barb? That's where it gets really difficult.

  14. #14
    Community Member WeaselKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    So say a scenario like this occurs:

    * Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
    * Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
    * Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
    * Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
    * Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."
    Wouldn't it be best for everyone if AOK really did eat itself? I'm just saying. They are all jerks.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Crann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed
    That chance at loot is being fairly and equally distributed among the raid members....by the computer. Everyone has an equal chance of rolling for it, and once its theirs it is theirs to do with as they please. What is best used by who is entirely too subjective.

    In your example....you said SOS should go to the Fighter or Barb over a Pally? That is your opinion, though. There are those who would say it should absolutely go to the Barb, and those who say that its worth LR'ing your Pally into a 2HF'er if he isn't already. Who is right, is it the party leader who gets to decide?

    TR adds a whole new dimension, in that anything may be useful to anyone.

    That being said....If I don't need it, I'm not going to keep it if it looks like someone else really needs it. That is my decision though.

    The Developers have decided how to handle loot distribution for us. Coming up with a rule that is different and informing a fraction of the gaming community about it doesn't make sense.

  16. #16
    The Motivator Karranor's Avatar
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    I just don't understand why Need before Greed is so hard. I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.

    If you get something you don't want or can't use, offer it up, through whatever means you feel like.

    If you need it, loot it, and grats to you.

    That's it. Gravy.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newtons_Apple View Post
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  18. #18
    Community Member Rav'n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how does Hefty Smurf distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (Hefty Smurfr, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having Hefty Smurf agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

    It's been my experience that Hefty Smurf tends towards keeping loot that drops in Hefty Smurf's name (that's fine and all, not Hefty Smurf's cup of tea) so Hefty Smurf thinks we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem Hefty Smurf is trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

    You might recognize these scenarios:

    1) Raid loot drops for Hefty Smurf, Hefty Smurf stays quiet for a bit, Hefty Smurf passes raid loot to Hefty Smurf and drops group quietly
    2) Hefty Smurf puts some condition on raid loot: Hefty Smurf shouldn't have one already, Hefty Smurf needs the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, Hefty Smurf should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for Hefty Smurf, not off-tanks like Hefty Smurf)
    3) Hefty Smurf puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Hefty Smurf after a large plat sum is offered in secret

    Hefty Smurf been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, Hefty Smurf has his own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

    So anyway, that's the problem only Hefty Smurf cares because what's the solution? What Hefty Smurf is proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

    So say a scenario like this occurs:

    * Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
    * Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
    * Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
    * Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
    * Hefty Smurf goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
    * Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

    Just an idea, Hefty Smurf could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what Hefty Smurf was getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. Hefty Smurf views it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...


    So.... I fixed it for you...
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karranor View Post
    I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.
    Suppose for example that I spent 8 major pots and 180 Heal scrolls to keep up a squad of S&B paladins while the other healer stood there with 37 mana and a CSW wand in his hand.

    The truth is that DDO allows different characters in a group to make very different levels of contribution, so as long as that is possible there will be people who feel they earned it more than the others.

  20. #20
    Hamfather totmacher's Avatar
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    I just wanted to open up discussion, one of the keys to a successful "raid contract" would be a couple of things I think:

    simplicity
    fairness
    resistance to "exploits"
    agreeability

    Something that could basically be stated in a couple of lines but customized to the scenario you're talking about...a contract for epics would look something like:

    Seal/Shards are yours, unless you don't want it. Then you have to put it up for a roll (no passing, no selling): The roll could be defined in two ways: 1) open to anyone 2) open to anyone that is JUST missing that component

    That could basically be explained in about 3 sentences and is generally fair I think
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
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