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  1. #1
    Community Member Pehtis's Avatar
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    Question Elf longsword vs Scimitar

    I haven't been playing any characters too deep in levels (and AH don't have all available gear) to know which weapons are overall better. What I mean is, what are the better weapon rewards available for each of these weapons (ignoring crafting).

    For example I have read there are Vorpal Longwords but is that also true for Scimitars?

    I am interested to note by mid to end game what weapon rewards are there for Longswords vs Scimitars in-game. Is there some Uber Scimitar or Longsword I should note etc.

    I am new to playing elves and I am still feeling my way with them. I do see that each has a separate enhancement tree for each of these. Hence my question.
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  2. #2
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    Vorpal can be found on any slash weapon. Sicle, kama, greatsword, longsword, scimitar ... any slash. As vorpal triggers on hit, roll of 20, it's irrelevant what kind of vorpal you use. The only thing that counts is can you hit and how fast you swing.

    At higher levels, there is Shroud crafting.

    Weapons base damage is only important at level 1. When you have 30+ STR, +5 (or better) weapon, tones of buffs that boost damage, lots of other effects on a weapon, the difference between 1d6 vs 1d8 doesn't even show on statistics. The critical range (17-20 vs 15-20) does. Alot. Scimitar wins.

    Solid longsword is easier to get tho. I think "new" Elf could start with longsword and then switch to scimitar when he/she becomes richer?

  3. #3
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    Any ability found randomly on longsword is found on scimitar (they both slashing weapons).
    As for named items, not really anything amazing in either category (maybe an epic mirage or 2 )
    I prefer scimitar because of the 18-20 crit range but that's more up to the number crunchers
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    My Elf Tempest prefered the Aernal Elf line (longswords and rapiers, both usable at TWF) over the Valenar Elf line (scimitars and falchions, only scimitars for TWF, as falchions are 2-handed weapons).

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  5. #5
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    Scimitar, rapier, and falchion are all superior to longsword. So make sure you pick one of the first three weapons, and then the enhancement to go with it.

  6. #6
    Community Member vVAnjilaVv's Avatar
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    You have to confirm a critical for vorpal to proc.....make sure your using a weapon your proficient with unless u have a really good to-hit and/or critical hit enhancers.

  7. #7
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grecan View Post
    My Elf Tempest prefered the Aernal Elf line (longswords and rapiers, both usable at TWF) over the Valenar Elf line (scimitars and falchions, only scimitars for TWF, as falchions are 2-handed weapons).

    my 2 cp
    Considering Longsword/rapiers are two different weapon damages it does poise one to be tight for feats...

    Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Toughness, Power Attack, improved crit Slash, (Oversized or one other twf required for tempest III) ... on an elf we run out of feats to fit in improved crit Pierce unless we splash a class with a feat level into it. So the Longsword/rapiers is not as flexibly as you alure.
    Last edited by Emili; 04-30-2010 at 09:16 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emili View Post

    Considering Longsword/rapiers are two different weapon damages it does poise one to be tight for feats...

    Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Toughness, Power Attack, improved crit Slash, (Oversized or one other twf required for tempest III) ... on an elf we run out of feats to fit in improved crit Pierce unless we splash a class with a feat level into it. So the Longsword/rapiers is not as flexibly as you alure.
    So what are u saying? That scimitar/falchion is more flexible than rapier/longsword in a TWF build?

    What if i have IC: piercing for the great rapier's critical range and use them most of the time, but also use vorpal longswords when needed, because u only vorpal on a 20, anyway? Or if the monsters i'm fighting are immune to criticals, i can use lonswords (with the same pluses to damage and to-hit with the rapiers), who have greater base damage than rapiers and scimitars.

    Do u see any versatility now?

    And yes, two different weapon damage types (slashing and piercing) sounds to me more flexible than only one (slashing)...

    Last edited by Grecan; 05-01-2010 at 03:08 AM.

  9. #9

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    Rapier & Scimitar > Longsword.

    The enhanced Crit range is unmissable at higher levels in my opinion, as all weapons here only have x2 Crit multiplier, critting more often is the way to keep up your DPS, especially if you have Seeker somewhere in your build (bloodstone, for example).

    - Assuming 20 Attacks, where all other modifiers are the same:

    Scimitar/Rapier:
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    16 Hits = 3.5 Base = 56 Damage
    3 Critical Hits = 3.5 Base x2 = 21 Damage
    Total = 77 Damage

    Longsword
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    17 Hits = 4.5 Base = 76.5 Damage
    2 Critical Hits = 4.5 Base x2 = 18 Damage
    Total = 94.5 Damage

    At low level, the base damage die does have an effect and you'll do more with a Longsword.

    - Assuming 20 Attacks, Elf Enhancement and Improved Critical, where all other modifiers are the same:

    Scimitar/Rapier:
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    13 Hits = 3.5 Base +2 Elf Enhancement = 71.5 Damage
    6 Critical Hits = (3.5 Base +2 Elf Enhancement) x2 = 66 Damage
    Total = 137.5 Damage

    Longsword
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    15 Hits = 4.5 Base +2 Elf Enhancement = 97.5 Damage
    4 Critical Hits = (4.5 Base +2 Elf Enhancement) x2 = 52 Damage
    Total = 136.5

    Already, adding in just the Enhancement and Improved Critical, and the playing field is pretty much even.

    - Assuming 20 Attacks, Elf Enhancement / Improved Critical / Seeker +6 / Strength 30 (+10), where all other modifiers are the same:

    Scimitar/Rapier:
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    13 Hits = 3.5 Base +10 Str +2 Elf Enhancement = 201.5 Damage
    6 Critical Hits = (3.5 Base +10 Str +6 Seeker +2 Elf Enhancement ) x2 = 258 Damage
    Total = 459.5 Damage

    Longsword
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    15 Hits = 4.5 Base +10 Str +2 Elf Enhancement = 247.5 Damage
    4 Critical Hits = (4.5 Base +10 Str +6 Seeker +2 Elf Enhancement ) x2 = 180 Damage
    Total = 427.5 Damage

    This is where the Scimitar/Rapier starts to pull away, the more additional base damage modifiers you can add in the more the additional critical hits will add to your overall DPS. Strength 30 is pretty easy to achieve for any Ranger/Barb/Fighter Build, and alot more is possible.

    - Assuming 20 Attacks, Elf Enhancement / Improved Critical / Seeker +6 / Strength 40(+15), where all other modifiers are the same:

    Scimitar/Rapier:
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    13 Hits = 3.5 Base +15 Str +2 Elf Enhancement = 266.5 Damage
    6 Critical Hits = (3.5 Base +15 Str +6 Seeker +2 Elf Enhancement ) x2 = 318 Damage
    Total = 584.5 Damage

    Longsword
    1 Miss = 0 Damage
    15 Hits = 4.5 Base +15 Str +2 Elf Enhancement = 322.5 Damage
    4 Critical Hits = (4.5 Base +15 Str +6 Seeker +2 Elf Enhancement ) x2 = 220 Damage
    Total = 542.5 Damage

    The gap widens further, Scimitar/Rapier critical hits benefitting more from the base damage than the Longsword can with its limited critical range.

    __________________________________________________ ___________________

    I feel at this point its important to say that would these numbers ever stop me using Longswords?

    In a word, No. My latest build is using them.

    Longswords do have benefits, namely:

    - Cheap prices on AH compared to Rapiers/Scimitars as Rapiers tend to be in demand by both Elves and Drow, Scimitars by Elf FvS.
    - Monks will get the ability to stay centred with Longswords with the new Whirling Steel feat in Update 5 - Longswords are superior to Kama's in every way
    - Longswords are good in situations where Fort plays an effect in negating some of your critical hits.
    - Longswords look cool
    __________________________________________________ ___________________
    Disclaimer: Please take these numbers with a slight pinch of salt. There what I cooked up after only my first cup of tea of the morning
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by vVAnjilaVv View Post
    You have to confirm a critical for vorpal to proc.....make sure your using a weapon your proficient with unless u have a really good to-hit and/or critical hit enhancers.
    Negative you have to confirm a 20 not just any crit
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  11. #11
    Community Member vVAnjilaVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCalico View Post
    Negative you have to confirm a 20 not just any crit
    Yeah...that's what I meant, I just gather most people actually read a vorpal description when they get one and know it only goes off on a 20......symptom of being in the game for so long

  12. #12

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    Unless we’re talking about a Cleric/Favored Soul/Paladin I prefer the Longsword/Rapier enhancements. However, this does not mean that I would be using the longsword 24/7.

    - Rapier/LS gives you access to all the awesome specialized weapon effects (except Stunning/Weighted). And, in some cases is the only way to get specific effects on a racial weapon. (ex. Banishing, Puncturing)

    - It gives you access to both Piercing and Slashing DR bypass. Note: Just about everything that has DR/Slashing is immune to crits so you don’t need to waste a feat on it.
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  13. #13
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    Both rapier and scimitar, as was stated, give higher dps than the longsword (and bastard sword, for that matter), and if you are an elf, they're even better.

    I would however choose rapier as my general DPS weapon so I could also use banishers and such, and switch to sicmitars at high levels when banishing is no longer worth anything, and vorpal scimis are still nice.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Warwolf42's Avatar
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    Exclamation depends on the target

    Scimi and Rapiers vs High Fort and/or Crit Immune targets will be lower DPS but I prefer the look of scimis.
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    Community Member hydra_ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    - Longswords are good in situations where Fort plays an effect in negating some of your critical hits.
    Disagree here. The difference is so negligible. A GS LS is a d10 (5.5) and a scimitar is d8 (4.5).

    Since scimmy > LS in most situations, chances are you would spec for Scimitar.

    Now lets compare a few cases, assuming PA, STR, etc. falls under the "base" category (I'll take scimitar damage, and subtract LS damage from it:
    No enhc for either/enhc for both, IC, GS:
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.7 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.7625 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.825 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.8875 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.95.
    As the results show, for anything except 100% fort, the scimitar is better, since your base, even at lvl 1, will be +4, and that's enough to counter the -0.8875 damage per hit penalty. In 100% fort, less than 1 dmg per swing is almost nothing.

    Now, enhc (favouring scimitar):
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.8 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.5875 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.375 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.1625 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 0.95.
    As you can see, in every case the scimitar wins. Thus, with scimitar enhc, you're better in every case than using a LS.

    Now, enhc (favouring LS)
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -3 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.9625 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.925 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.8875 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.85.
    Even with LS enhc, a scimitar without them is still better. The most difficult case to beat (75%) requires a +12 modifier to base damage. That's 5 PA, and 24 STR, for MH, and 5 PA 48 STR for OH. Although the OH case might seem like a a lot, every other increase to base damage subtracts 4 from it, so with even a crappy +4 bard song, your STR only needs to be 32. And that's notwithstanding that its the most extreme case.
    Thus you can safely conclude that even with LS enhc, a scimitar without beats it against most fortifications.
    Against 100%, the difference between scimitar with enhc and LS with enhc is 0.95, or less than 1 dmg per swing - something barely noticeable considering all the other things, and that many 100% fort mobs (liches, skeletons) require bldg to bypass DR.

    Thus, scimitars are pretty much undeniably better in almost every way (except against other players, some constructs, zombies, and elementals).
    Last edited by hydra_ex; 07-27-2010 at 02:33 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydra_ex View Post
    Thus you can safely conclude that even with LS enhc, a scimitar without beats it against most fortifications.
    Against 100%, the difference between scimitar with enhc and LS with enhc is 0.95, or less than 1 dmg per swing - something barely noticeable considering all the other things, and that many 100% fort mobs (liches, skeletons) require bldg to bypass DR.

    Thus, scimitars are pretty much undeniably better in almost every way (except against other players, some constructs, zombies, and elementals).
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    Also, keep in mind that bursting effects trigger more often on a scimitar, so if the target isn't immune to them, the scimitar still wins vs 100% fort.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by hydra_ex View Post
    Disagree here. The difference is so negligible. A GS LS is a d10 (5.5) and a scimitar is d8 (4.5).

    Since scimmy > LS in most situations, chances are you would spec for Scimitar.

    Now lets compare a few cases, assuming PA, STR, etc. falls under the "base" category (I'll take scimitar damage, and subtract LS damage from it:
    No enhc for either/enhc for both, IC, GS:
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.7 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.7625 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.825 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.8875 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = -0.95.
    As the results show, for anything except 100% fort, the scimitar is better, since your base, even at lvl 1, will be +4, and that's enough to counter the -0.8875 damage per hit penalty. In 100% fort, less than 1 dmg per swing is almost nothing.

    Now, enhc (favouring scimitar):
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.8 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.5875 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.375 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 1.1625 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+2+4.5)+1*0*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+5.5)+1*0*(Base+5.5)*4]/20 = 0.95.
    As you can see, in every case the scimitar wins. Thus, with scimitar enhc, you're better in every case than using a LS.

    Now, enhc (favouring LS)
    Code:
    0% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*(Base+2+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -3 + 2*Base.
    25% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.75*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.75*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.9625 + 1.5*Base.
    50% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.5*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.5*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.925 + 1*Base.
    75% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0.25*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0.25*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.8875 + 0.5*Base.
    100% Fort: [19*(Base+4.5)+1*0*(Base+4.5)*6]/20 - [19*(Base+2+5.5)+1*0*(Base+2+5.5)*4]/20 = -2.85.
    Even with LS enhc, a scimitar without them is still better. The most difficult case to beat (75%) requires a +12 modifier to base damage. That's 5 PA, and 24 STR, for MH, and 5 PA 48 STR for OH. Although the OH case might seem like a a lot, every other increase to base damage subtracts 4 from it, so with even a crappy +4 bard song, your STR only needs to be 32. And that's notwithstanding that its the most extreme case.
    Thus you can safely conclude that even with LS enhc, a scimitar without beats it against most fortifications.
    Against 100%, the difference between scimitar with enhc and LS with enhc is 0.95, or less than 1 dmg per swing - something barely noticeable considering all the other things, and that many 100% fort mobs (liches, skeletons) require bldg to bypass DR.

    Thus, scimitars are pretty much undeniably better in almost every way (except against other players, some constructs, zombies, and elementals).
    I compliment in taking the time to demonstrate all this, but I did say right at the start of my post that Scimitar/Rapier > Longsword

    I have to say though, I really, really am enjoying playing a Longsword specced Fighter/Monk, its a great synergy and is working very, very well.

    Not to mention, the Scimitar Greensteel art is fugly, the Greensteel Longsword art is far more suitable for a Samurai/Eastern style Warrior Monk
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  18. #18
    Community Member shablala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grecan View Post
    So what are u saying? That scimitar/falchion is more flexible than rapier/longsword in a TWF build?

    What if i have IC: piercing for the great rapier's critical range and use them most of the time, but also use vorpal longswords when needed, because u only vorpal on a 20, anyway? Or if the monsters i'm fighting are immune to criticals, i can use lonswords (with the same pluses to damage and to-hit with the rapiers), who have greater base damage than rapiers and scimitars.

    Do u see any versatility now?

    And yes, two different weapon damage types (slashing and piercing) sounds to me more flexible than only one (slashing)...

    I think you're arguing just for the sake of it. If you are picking up the longsword simply for vorpal effect, then it has nothing to do with your argument of slashing and piercing, as you might as well pick up ANY weapon you are proficient with for vorpal.

    Now as far as flexibility, having two weapon types would be flexible on feat rich class like a fighter, but even then not many fighters would do that. Most would take either slash or pierce and add blunt with their corresponding IC feats. You're not adding any flexibility if you're only taking ONE IC.

    For an elf, it's hands down scimitars. Unless you are splashing monk and want to remain in stance, then it's longsword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pehtis View Post
    I haven't been playing any characters too deep in levels (and AH don't have all available gear) to know which weapons are overall better. What I mean is, what are the better weapon rewards available for each of these weapons (ignoring crafting).

    For example I have read there are Vorpal Longwords but is that also true for Scimitars?

    I am interested to note by mid to end game what weapon rewards are there for Longswords vs Scimitars in-game. Is there some Uber Scimitar or Longsword I should note etc.

    I am new to playing elves and I am still feeling my way with them. I do see that each has a separate enhancement tree for each of these. Hence my question.
    here is my only real tip, monk is a great class, it blends well with alot of things, like rouge, ranger, cleric, paladin, etc. And if you want to excel then you make longsword a monk weapon granting some really hnady benefits. Just look for a thread called the last elf standing build to see what I mean. WIth sucha build longsword is the elven sword( unless drow then its a short sword) and scimitar crit junkies can just miss out.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shablala View Post
    I think you're arguing just for the sake of it.
    Maybe that applies to you, not me... or should i just say that you don't seem to understand what i'm saying?

    So, i'll try to make you understand:

    Quote Originally Posted by shablala View Post
    If you are picking up the longsword simply for vorpal effect, then it has nothing to do with your argument of slashing and piercing, as you might as well pick up ANY weapon you are proficient with for vorpal.
    No, i'm not picking the longsword just for the vorpal effect. I'm picking the enhancement line for both longswords and rapiers. Of those two weapons, only longswords can have the vorpal effect, cause they're slashing, while rapiers are piercing. Yes, any vorpal weapon someone is proficient with can be used for that effect, but having followed the ls/rapier enhancement line, longswords have better to-hit (and damage) so i assume they are better to use than just any weapon...

    As for my argument about slashing and piercing, i said that having two different damage types available brings more versatility, cause each of those damage types have some effects that the other type doesn't have (for example slashing-vorpal, piercing-banishing), and also some monsters have DR/slashing and others DR/piercing. Finally, longswords have a little better base damage than rapiers, so i usually use those against crit-immune monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by shablala View Post
    Now as far as flexibility, having two weapon types would be flexible on feat rich class like a fighter, but even then not many fighters would do that. Most would take either slash or pierce and add blunt with their corresponding IC feats. You're not adding any flexibility if you're only taking ONE IC.
    Having two different damage types is more flexible than having only one, is this so hard to see? (I'm talking about the difference between Aernal and Valenar line). Just because it's almost impossible for a pure ranger to take a 2nd IC, the flexibility is gone? I'll say it again, vorpaling doesn't need IC, it only procs on a 20. Also, IC would be wasted on crit-immune mobs... For non crit-immune, i use rapiers, unless i want to vorpal them.

    Quote Originally Posted by shablala View Post
    For an elf, it's hands down scimitars. Unless you are splashing monk and want to remain in stance, then it's longsword.
    (I'm talking about Aernal vs Valenar line again...) Rapiers have the same base damage and crit range with scimitars. And they share the same enhancement line with longswords. So i don't understand why you see scimitars "hands down" better... I see them as good as rapiers, but overall i prefer the ls/rapier over the scim/falchion enhancement line for any twf class, cause it is more versatile.
    Last edited by Grecan; 09-02-2010 at 02:59 PM.
    If i haven't responded to your post, it doesn't necessarily mean that i don't have counter-arguments, it might simply mean that i don't want to keep feeding the trolls.
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