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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I told you this is my goal, not that its happening right now. I cant do this in PD because individuals like you keep grinding it into other players heads that they arent really having a true PD experience unless they restrict themselves from certain in game mechanics. Ironic that by doing so, you have to metaselect quests just to make it to 20, if you even can. You will also harp on others about their easy buttons, but you wont get off your own easy button, stop metagaming the same quests in the first 2/3s of the levels of the game, and man up to the real hard content, which is end game. You claim you want a challenge? The gauntlet is down bud. Balls in your court not mine. You are the one who over the years has a history of talking about challenges, earning completions, restrictions, and monte hall toons, tut tutting people who have won hard earned accomplishments for a couple years now because they werent earned on your terms, and patting yourself and others who think like you do on the back harder than you do others for accomplishing the same things. Time to demonstrate what you know of these things, at all levels. You wont do it though, I can already see it. Again, I clearly understand I am convincing no one other than those who already agree with me. But I still feel compelled to pull your card, to try to set things into motion, for individuals like yourself to rise to the next level of play. By your own motto - stay hard? Or continue metagaming and repetition grinding with restrictions?

    PD Tor will be NP. So will reaver. Sure it may take a few tries, but it will happen. Shroud is another thing entirely, but it can be done, with the right attitude and level of discipline. I have seen less geared less knowledgeable less skilled people regarding builds and metagaming lead through the Shroud without deaths. PD players already have what it takes, more than alot of the pileons I see in non PD, who are first time players, lack build knowledge and quest knowledge, but still succeed.

    Heck, VON is harder than Reaver / TOR, and it has been done in PD.

    Obviously Parvo can defend himself. But I've done pretty much all the content in the game and I've been in pug groups with some very smooth players. But if anyone metaselects or metagamers, it's pug players who want the easiest run possible. They bring every weapon they need, or buy one from the AH, before going into the quest.

    But you say real hard content is only end game? Nonsense. If I remember right, Parvo was in a 3-man group in MV which ran and completed Faithful Departed a while back. I consider that to be a truly decent accomplishment. You don't have to grind your way up to level 18-20 to find a challenge Chai! Take a full party of level 5-6's into Taming the Flames on hard. Elite would be asking too much, right? On hard, you'd only be slightly under level for that quest. I think it will be plenty challenging for you.

    Here's the bottom line: if you make allowances (like using AH) for the strict rules of certain PD guilds, you will make it SO INCREDIBLY EASY to reach something like Bastion of Power that the journey to it will hardly be worthwhile. You might as well just pug if you are in a hurry to see Sins of Attrition, Tower of Despair, and Vision of Destruction. I've been in those quests, and even though the groups were good, I don't see much in the way of accomplishment there compared to what goes on in PD guilds. Solo VOD elite? I admit, it's a pretty decent accomplishment. When he failed the first time did he delete his character? What did he risk by trying?

    Finally, it's not an either/or: high level content or permadeath. I experience high level content with my non-pd toon and climb Mount Glory when I want to get serious.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    While I can agree with most of what you are saying, I think 4 years of permadeath gaming and still making the old "we will get there" statement seems futile. Shroud is a mid level raid now. The flag quests are level 16. I think it can be done. the Reaver can be soloed, no shrines, since he super charges your mana anyhow. The other 11 players are just piking for the most part nowdays. TOR is more of a challenge, but with no shrines it likely wont be done. I like PD, and I dont think its too much of a stretch to enjoy higher end content. It just means having a few more resources.
    No, the Shroud is not a mid level raid now. It's relatively close to the level cap. You probably meant that it's an easy raid now, since level 20's go in with greensteel galore on normal. The level of the raid doesn't change because the characters get stronger with gear upgrades. I ran in TOD the other day with Axer and company and it was easy too. Is that one of the difficult raids?

    And your "four years of permadeath gaming" is misleading. Two years ago we were using the AH and brokers in MV and approaching the level cap for the time. The mechanics of the guild prevented us from doing nothing. Some of us left to play other games and some of us left to play in a more hardcore guild. You're painted permadeath play as a failed venture and I'd respond by saying it's an on-going success.

    Granted, I get pretty daunted at times when I'm running in my permadeath static group and we are battling through Running With The Devils and getting refueled by shrines. It makes me think, "How are we EVER going to do this quest in The Core?" But again, that's like worrying about having enough rocket fuel to reach the moon while you are sailing the pacific in search of India. Sea monsters, hmmm, loot! Yes, loot.

  3. #43
    Community Member UnderwearModel's Avatar
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    Default This debate is about the AH correct?

    I very rarely BUY anything from the AH as the prices are out of balance. I do not think the AH is much of a factor for a PDer.

    I find 99% of my gear while playing.

    Sometimes, when selling at vendors I see a weapon I like and purchase it. Or I find mithril armor at the vendor and I purchase it.

    In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.
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    Monster AI tends to be a limitation of the engine - smart AIs cause more server lag. Boy am I going to get quoted on that or what.
    I survived the scary events in 2009, 2010, and 2011. 2011 did not reward those that played by the rules.

  4. #44
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I told you this is my goal, not that its happening right now. I cant do this in PD because individuals like you keep grinding it into other players heads that they arent really having a true PD experience unless they restrict themselves from certain in game mechanics. Ironic that by doing so, you have to metaselect quests just to make it to 20, if you even can. You will also harp on others about their easy buttons, but you wont get off your own easy button, stop metagaming the same quests in the first 2/3s of the levels of the game, and man up to the real hard content, which is end game. You claim you want a challenge? The gauntlet is down bud. Balls in your court not mine. You are the one who over the years has a history of talking about challenges, earning completions, restrictions, and monte hall toons, tut tutting people who have won hard earned accomplishments for a couple years now because they werent earned on your terms, and patting yourself and others who think like you do on the back harder than you do others for accomplishing the same things. Time to demonstrate what you know of these things, at all levels. You wont do it though, I can already see it. Again, I clearly understand I am convincing no one other than those who already agree with me. But I still feel compelled to pull your card, to try to set things into motion, for individuals like yourself to rise to the next level of play. By your own motto - stay hard? Or continue metagaming and repetition grinding with restrictions?

    PD Tor will be NP. So will reaver. Sure it may take a few tries, but it will happen. Shroud is another thing entirely, but it can be done, with the right attitude and level of discipline. I have seen less geared less knowledgeable less skilled people regarding builds and metagaming lead through the Shroud without deaths. PD players already have what it takes, more than alot of the pileons I see in non PD, who are first time players, lack build knowledge and quest knowledge, but still succeed.

    Heck, VON is harder than Reaver / TOR, and it has been done in PD.
    Your dressing me down about cherry-picking quests Chai? Really...

    Show us your PD charactrers. Mine are there for you to see.
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  5. #45
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    ...And your "four years of permadeath gaming" is misleading. Two years ago we were using the AH and brokers in MV and approaching the level cap for the time. ..
    We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.
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  6. #46
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwearModel View Post
    I very rarely BUY anything from the AH as the prices are out of balance. I do not think the AH is much of a factor for a PDer.

    I find 99% of my gear while playing.

    Sometimes, when selling at vendors I see a weapon I like and purchase it. Or I find mithril armor at the vendor and I purchase it.

    In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.
    This is a good point. Broker gear probably puts a character in the same range as one using auction.
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.
    You're right, my typo. But it's a pointless distinction because the stuff we WERE buying from the brokers in MV was probably cheaper and just as powerful as the stuff normally available on the AH.

    I remember Tipto once bought a Reaver's Ring from the brokers. He probably paid 20k gold for it. For kicks, see how much they are on the buyout option in the AH. You'll see my point.

    The character I leveled up to 15 in MV, Mochop, could hardly have benefitted more using the AH. He found everything he could have possibly desired at the brokers. It took a fair bit of searching, but if he need a +6 wisdom helm, he found it. If he needed good armored bracers, he bought the +7 ARMORER BRACERS from the brokers when they were in the Rusty Nail.

    The stuff at the brokers was cheaper than it normally is on the AH, just a bit harder to find...

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.
    You're right, my typo. But it's a pointless distinction because the stuff we WERE buying from the brokers in MV was probably cheaper and just as powerful as the stuff normally available on the AH.

    I remember Tipto once bought a Reaver's Ring from the brokers. He probably paid 20k gold for it. For kicks, see how much they are on the buyout option in the AH. You'll see my point.

    The character I leveled up to 15 in MV, Mochop, could hardly have benefitted more using the AH. He found everything he could have possibly desired at the brokers. It took a fair bit of searching, but if he needed a +6 wisdom helm, he found it. If he needed good armored bracers, he bought the +7 ARMORED BRACERS from the brokers when they were in the Rusty Nail.

    The stuff at the brokers was cheaper than it normally is on the AH, just a bit harder to find...

  9. #49
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    Obviously Parvo can defend himself. But I've done pretty much all the content in the game and I've been in pug groups with some very smooth players. But if anyone metaselects or metagamers, it's pug players who want the easiest run possible. They bring every weapon they need, or buy one from the AH, before going into the quest.

    But you say real hard content is only end game? Nonsense. If I remember right, Parvo was in a 3-man group in MV which ran and completed Faithful Departed a while back. I consider that to be a truly decent accomplishment. You don't have to grind your way up to level 18-20 to find a challenge Chai! Take a full party of level 5-6's into Taming the Flames on hard. Elite would be asking too much, right? On hard, you'd only be slightly under level for that quest. I think it will be plenty challenging for you.

    Here's the bottom line: if you make allowances (like using AH) for the strict rules of certain PD guilds, you will make it SO INCREDIBLY EASY to reach something like Bastion of Power that the journey to it will hardly be worthwhile. You might as well just pug if you are in a hurry to see Sins of Attrition, Tower of Despair, and Vision of Destruction. I've been in those quests, and even though the groups were good, I don't see much in the way of accomplishment there compared to what goes on in PD guilds. Solo VOD elite? I admit, it's a pretty decent accomplishment. When he failed the first time did he delete his character? What did he risk by trying?

    Finally, it's not an either/or: high level content or permadeath. I experience high level content with my non-pd toon and climb Mount Glory when I want to get serious.

    Again far too absolutist. Your blanket statements dont apply to the higher level content . You may have had a point in 2007 when level 12 was the cap, but nowdays, the fact that you and other restricted players dont even set foot in these places proves exactly what I stated to be true.

    I dont expect you to see it my way, but ill state my point anyhow. Since you are metaselecting quests to fit your chosen playstyle, you are falling into your own little self contradicting irony trap you call others out for. You avoid the toughest content in the game, and dodge certain content even when its at mid level. Your playstyle is hard core, but in order to facilitate it, you have to avoid sizable milestones in the mid level game, and not even attempt the high end game.

    And yes, each time I see these statements made on the forums regarding the AH making the game too easy, whether its Parvo or someone else, I feel compelled to jump in and point out how rediculous they are, along with the irony that is served up as a hard playstyle.

  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Your dressing me down about cherry-picking quests Chai? Really...

    Show us your PD charactrers. Mine are there for you to see.
    Dont play the anon game with me. The forums are a place where a few people can slap eachother on the back enough times to earn the right to troll neg rep for weeks at a time on someone else who doesnt have enough slaps on the back to do the same in return. It sucks when people cant handle being disagreed with to the point where they have to react by mashing the drama button like they are trying to build up top speed in a Track and Field game. I usually find that if someone reacts this way, the points I made in response to their blathering probably hit a little too close to home, they cant formulate an actual valid counterpoint, so they have to call me out for being anon. By doing this, you are attempting to side step the entire issue and gloss over every single legitimate point that is made.

    If you actually read the posts I made before replying you would actually see that I clearly stated running this content is (was) a goal of mine, that it is possible, but no one is doing it yet. You are calling me out for something I clearly stated could be done, but is being roadblocked not by ability, but by absolutist blanket statements of people who classify accomplishments based on level of gear, yet avoid certain content and metaselect quests themselves according to playstyle choice.

  11. #51
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwearModel View Post

    In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.
    Which is exactly why I want to run the higher content with them.

    I want to see how far the strategic rabbit hole goes. I cant challenge them or bait them into doing it though, not even with the reward of younger women, faster cars, mo money, and pie, lots and lots of pie!

  12. #52
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Once you get into the higher level content, you cannot complete without having specific resporces.
    That is why you failed.

    We have already accomplished what I used to think was impossible.
    Last edited by spifflove; 05-03-2010 at 09:52 AM.

  13. #53
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Completing the analogy: I have met a few people who climb mountains as a hobby, and some make it more difficult on themselves than others as a challenge, but NONE of them are EVER satisfied with getting 2/3 of the way to the top, over and over again.
    No, they get 2/3 of the way as many times as is necessary until they reach the top. Then they look for the next mountain. Even a casual climber knows this.

    In pnp once you got to 20 you retired, became an NPC, demigod, etc.

  14. #54
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spifflove View Post
    No, they get 2/3 of the way as many times as is necessary until they reach the top. Then they look for the next mountain. Even a casual climber knows this.

    In pnp once you got to 20 you retired, became an NPC, demigod, etc.
    Or you use the epic ruleset and go to 40. Again the analogy applies, as the game is more broken as you progress into epic levels.

  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spifflove View Post
    That is why you failed.

    We have already accomplished what I used to think was impossible.
    So you rolled into a new invasion and completed on the hardest setting possible with restricted resources?

    I did all the content iron man back in 2007 including the shroud. The stuff that is out now however makes the shroud look like a kitty pool. PD could reach the tops of these mountains using restricted rulesets back in the day. This no longer applies however, as the new content that is released is done so with the specific understanding of all the items and resources that are in the game, and the fact that players will use these resources influences the difficulty that this content is put out at.

    The only thing I failed at is convincing people that a shifting game dynamic requires you to rethink rulesets in order to do higher level content. I think you guys do understand this however, as you accept that you will not be doing the upper tier stuff, and work around quests and chains you know will not accomodate your ruleset. I am fine with this, as long as you are not talking about easy buttons, monte hall toons, and AH = lack of challenge when someone else does accomplish something you choose to avoid through metaselection of quests.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-03-2010 at 10:25 AM.

  16. #56
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So you rolled into a new invasion and completed on the hardest setting possible with restricted resources?

    I havent failed. I did all the content iron man back in 2007 including the shroud. The stuff that is out now however makes the shroud look like a kitty pool. PD could reach the tops of these mountains using restricted rulesets back in the day. This no longer applies however.
    No but I know it could be done. I have real life issues now that will prevent me from being there when it happens.

    If I had no real life issues, only had a 9-5 job with no family, etc, I would expect it would take me about a year accomplish everything I wanted to in the game, about the same time it took me to beat Panzer General with the rule that I couldnt lose a single unit [elite level, low prestige].

    You make some interesting points but you also put in alot of false conclusions. I recently made a toon that I leveled to 18 playing about 1 hour a day on bonus xp days only and have done rainbow about 6 times now including elite using dual Retributions, a longsword of paralyzing, a cursepewing longsword, and dual metalline longswords. Oh and I played an elf. I didn't need mineral II scimitars. Maybe for Epic but like others said thats the moon.

    Bottom line: The reason why the limited resources PD doesnt want to use the Ah is because it won't mean anything to us to win that way.
    Last edited by spifflove; 05-03-2010 at 11:21 AM.

  17. #57
    Community Member Drall.'s Avatar
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    I don't know, it seems a bit of a false debate.

    Let's say that we assume that there are some high-level content that strict PD rules will prohibit forever, in that case PD people have 2 options:

    A. Open up PD rules to allow to get to all of the content (at the risk of making previous content too easy as OP mentioned).

    or

    B. Roll a non-PD toon and go play the high-end content with it.


    Now, where exactly the PD cap will end-up being is hard to say but it sounds to me that taking option A and opening up the rules to reach a higher destination puts a risk to the whole road. I don't think it's worth taking at this stage since you can do B. In addition, the glass ceiling for PD with strict rules hasn't been reached yet, so it seems a bit of an unecessary debate at ths point.

    For transparency sake, I play mostly PD and a non-PD character (option B FTW).


    Drall

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spifflove View Post
    No but I know it could be done. I have real life issues now that will prevent me from being there when it happens.

    If I had no real life issues, only had a 9-5 job with no family, etc, I would expect it would take me about a year accomplish everything I wanted to in the game, about the same time it took me to beat Panzer General with the rule that I couldnt lose a single unit [elite level, low prestige].

    You make some interesting points but you also put in alot of false conclusions. I recently made a toon that I leveled to 18 playing about 1 hour a day on bonus xp days only and have done rainbow about 6 times now including elite using dual Retributions, a longsword of paralyzing, a cursepewing longsword, and dual metalline longswords. Oh and I played an elf. I didn't need mineral II scimitars. Maybe for Epic but like others said thats the moon.

    Bottom line: The reason why the limited resources PD doesnt want to use the Ah is because it won't mean anything to us to win that way.
    Rainbow was higher end content in 2007. It is now 2010 and there have been ALOT of releases in content that I dont see touched often by PD players. This again, is due to the logrithmic difficulty increase. Even going up one tier from the vale to reavers refuge, you see what I mean. Compare the boss fights of "Enter the Kobold" and Prey on the Hunter" with those of "Rainbow in the Dark" and other vale content and you see the exponential increase in PD difficulty to complete. Possible failure of running these on hard at level with restricted resources is no longer 10% like Parvo suggests for most of the content. Its alot higher. Shavarath and Amrath take this up another two exponential notches. The one exception to the rule here is Inspired Quarter, which seems to have been created for more casual players. A level 19 quest out there doesnt match up difficulty wise to a level 19 amrath quest.

    Id love to see PD players succeed out in the Amrath / Shavarath zones. I believe it will take more than skill / forcec cooperation out there. The boss fights not only require DR bypassing weapons, but specific effect removal en masse. No amount of skill can resolve hitting a mob for 0. You either have the needed items or you dont....

    ...Or you metaselect these quests out of the playable content.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-03-2010 at 02:14 PM.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The only thing I failed at is convincing people that a shifting game dynamic requires you to rethink rulesets in order to do higher level content. I think you guys do understand this however, as you accept that you will not be doing the upper tier stuff, and work around quests and chains you know will not accomodate your ruleset. I am fine with this, as long as you are not talking about easy buttons, monte hall toons, and AH = lack of challenge when someone else does accomplish something you choose to avoid through metaselection of quests.
    But we are not passing up quests in MV and The Core because they are too hard, that is the reason we are sitting around level 12-13. We run whatever is available to us and never overlevel (The Core will does 1 level over to accomidate for lack of shrines). We have characters in the level range for VoN, just not enough to actually do the raid yet but we have had many attempts to flag for it. We lost ~10 9-11 (some with xp for 12) characters in several Von3 Hard runs this year. The only things we avoid are trap heavy quests if we have no rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drall. View Post
    A. Open up PD rules to allow to get to all of the content (at the risk of making previous content too easy as OP mentioned).
    The opened up rulesets are why MV, Valhalla, and the Core were formed in the first place though , many players didn't like the direction the game/pd rules were going and made it tougher on themselves.


    Again, none of the rulesets are better than the others, they just have different goals. The guilds that don't allow the brokers/AH do it because the benifits do not outweigh the negatives for the way they want to play. The players like Chai that want to run epics and end-game raids can do just that in Sublime, Extreme Explorers, or any of the other PD guilds that use the AH.

    P.S. it's always entertaining to watch somebody try and change Parvo's mind
    Last edited by Zornochio; 05-03-2010 at 03:09 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zornochio View Post
    But we are not passing up quests in MV and The Core because they are too hard, that is the reason we are sitting around level 12-13. We run whatever is available to us and never overlevel (The Core will does 1 level over to accomidate for lack of shrines). We have characters in the level range for VoN, just not enough to actually do the raid yet but we have had many attempts to flag for it. We lost ~10 9-11 (some with xp for 12) characters in several Von3 Hard runs this year. The only things we avoid are trap heavy quests if we have no rogue.
    So the guilds who play with no shrine dont metaselect past say Tor, mired in kobolds, prey on the hunter, and the like, due to knowing the quest would be next to impossible sans shrines? (well, i think you COULD do mired, but I wont spoil it for people who like the virgin dragon fight experience) I think Duncan already established that there are some exceptions that "dont get worried about". While I will accept this is a sacrifice you make due to your ruleset, and heck I even endorse it due to creating an extreme challenge, I will not accept this from people who crow on and on to everyone else about purchasing from AH = no challenge, monte hall toons not earning their accomplishments, and the like.

    I am sure you can see where the irony is here. You have people harping about running quests over level or at level using the AH which is not challenging, then they themselves are metaselecting their way through available quests because they know certain quests WILL be the end of their toons if they run them according to their rulesets, even with a heavy dose of metagaming, skill, and forced cooperation.

    Then someone like myself who doesnt mind taking the hard assignment to point this out comes along and explains the truth, which is that these people are CHOOSING to limit themselves and in doing so, cant really make comments about other peoples challenges, because more gear availability also = higher possible challenges. People in Sublime for instance have run level 18 and 19 quests on level 15 and 16 toons. This is not uncommon, as the ruleset allows for more availability of resources. My highest toon in PD to date other than an iron man static group which is technically non PD, is 16. He has been in level 20 quests. I dont need to have rules branded into my forhead and etched in stone in order to challenge myself, nor to know which content will be challenging given the level of resources available and average party level. Some people believe otherwise however, and feel the need to make their voices heard onthe issue. Cant blame me for doing the same.

    Other PDers have basically /ragequit guilds in full temper tantrum mode over ruleset arguements in the past so I know people take this pretty seriously, which is why I have to point out the irony when I see it.

    P.S. I dont /ragequit. I /ragejoin. What? You dont think I can do this? Pfft, thats the last straw! Sign me up bro! The crazies want to feed me to a red dragon at level 10 or less. I'll run to the AH to buy some ketchup for that quest....
    Last edited by Chai; 05-03-2010 at 04:22 PM.

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