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  1. #41
    Community Member MorningStarSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    I remember a time when I once said... "You know why I love DDO...? Because I never feel like I am grinding." That DDO is dead.

    Is this a grinding game, or is it not, because if it is... I may just leave and never come back again... and stop recommending that my friends try it out, and come join the server on which I play...

    I said that with other games as well. I don't know why i could feel it less before and now i'm just tired of that retarded grind (yes i'm using the R word, cause i'm a pirate ! Arr !).


    I grind for some item, i started to grind the shroud and the DT armor recently but i doubt i will ever complete it, at least i don't run it every 2-3 days and i've plenty of stuff to do with all my toons. That said, i'm not there yet, but i know the pain and seriously, grinding =/= fun, its not playing a game, its a stupid job, i stopped raiding because of that in other games...
    Last edited by MorningStarSE; 04-16-2010 at 11:42 PM.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Jendrak's Avatar
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    As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

    1. MMO's need players
    2. Players like phat loots
    3. phat loots require work
    4. work in MMO's = grinding

    Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.
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  3. #43
    Community Member MorningStarSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

    1. MMO's need players
    2. Players like phat loots
    3. phat loots require work
    4. work in MMO's = grinding

    Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.

    You forget to mention the part where the guy who get the phatest loot has to brag and say **** on the rest of the world because he so leet and got the biggest epeen ever !
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  4. #44
    Community Member Velexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

    1. MMO's need players
    2. Players like phat loots
    3. phat loots require work
    4. work in MMO's = grinding

    Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.
    You're wrong, and you don't even know why. It's called thinking outside of the box. You are inside of the box inside of the box inside of the box...
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat: This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard leaves. "Game over man, game over! Now what the **** are we supposed to do?"

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    You're wrong, and you don't even know why. It's called thinking outside of the box. You are inside of the box inside of the box inside of the box...
    Shouldn't you then give a better scenario than the one accused of being wrong?

    I'm just being Devil's Advocate but saying that the example is wrong and people need tro think outside of the box deserves an example to show why it's wrong
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  6. #46
    Community Member Velexia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasczak View Post
    Shouldn't you then give a better scenario than the one accused of being wrong?

    I'm just being Devil's Advocate but saying that the example is wrong and people need tro think outside of the box deserves an example to show why it's wrong
    There is no point, DDO could never incorporate such an example. Especially this late in its life.

    But here, indulge yourself in this: http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia (Weblogs and Forum Topics by Velexia)
    Last edited by Velexia; 04-19-2010 at 04:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat: This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard leaves. "Game over man, game over! Now what the **** are we supposed to do?"

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    There is no point, DDO could never incorporate such an example. Especially this late in its life.

    But here, indulge yourself in this: http://www.mmorpg.com/profile.cfm/username/velexia
    Interesting take, yet it will be a very fine line between grinding and waiting. I generally find that when people get to certain powerful levels based on the world they are in, it either becomes a massive waiting game, or like DDO, make them run for power or items.

    Unless instanced worlds can release something every week for endgame, there will be grind.
    The only time a box becomes involved in the line of thinking is how to make the waiting and/or grind less tedious. No-one has a result for that yet.

    You could of course take a pointer from the click-based browser games with no level cap but then it becomes monotonous with people only going for power over pleasure.
    Last edited by Rasczak; 04-19-2010 at 04:14 AM.
    Don't let common sense stop you...
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  8. #48
    Community Member Otherworld's Avatar
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    Post Just got me thinking

    Maybe they should make a series of quests (maybe even existing ones) you have to complete (like a checklist) to get a chance at a high-tier epic item (which looks cool).

    And just make the game choose a random selection of quests for the list.
    Then when you complete the checklist, you can turn it in at some npc (who may or may not be at the end of a special quest).

    Once you completed the list and turned in, your list resets with another random selection of quests.
    (And maybe DON'T scale the quests to your lvl, but make it so that you have to re-do some low lvl quests. Also, quests from chains should be left out.)

  9. #49
    Community Member Kyrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    Necropolis III, Tome Pages, Shield Fragments, Tapestry Shreds, Sigil Pieces, and then a Raid which drops loot as per normal. This felt like maybe a step in the right direction... as it takes less runs overall and you are less likely to hit the 0 xp awarded mark on any particular quest.
    Just a correction: Necropolis III is the Cursed Crypt series. You mean Necropolis IV.
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  10. #50
    Community Member Anderei's Avatar
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    What speaks for DDO as a non-grind game? It is very possible to reach the cap - level 20 (non-TR) without much feeling of a grind. Normal-Hard everything and you are easily at 1.900.000 XP. You do not need any of the uber gear to get there (contrary to what I heared of the top at WoW, if you don't have grindy-gear X dont even think about entering content Y).

    What speaks for DDO a a grinding game? Well as been posted, a lot of things kept kreeping in that are very far on the grinding-side of the scale. Take a simple example Invaders, while I enjoyed running it 5 times, 25 tokens for your healing scepter/balance ring is just a tad too much to be counted non-grinding. And this is just the easy things, since you can solo invaders after a given level (13 for me, getting the WF-wiz hireling). Aside of the grind you need to get to epics (which is okay IMHO, since it is epic after all), some of the content can only been seen after much grind, which is bad (like the Y content from above), I never have seen the Abbot Raid - while Vol, Fleshmakers, and Ghosts aren't that bad, I couldn't push me to repeat inferno multiplle of times, 1-2 runs were enough. Same I never seen ToD, since the boots uhhhh, and nowadays you cannot enter without boots at all.

    In total I think grind ist not be bad in a sense of itself. People actually like some kind of grind. Take e.g. Shroud, its a great Raid, I really enjoy doing it, it does feel kind of epic etc. I repeatedly do it with my 2 lvl 20is, altough I didn't even plan any greensteel yet. Its just when doing some stuff too much, you enjoy by itself too less it starts feeling ehhh. So IMHO DDO can just scrap the "non-grind-MMO" from its attribute list, its simply not true. The only way you could reeally stay non-grind while keeping people playing is by adding new content - continously - not 10 dungeon/year, but much more. Staying non-grind is done by more story-telling.

    While I do realize there are some stories tied into DDO, in total it feels kind of story less, often with groups you don't even have given the time to read the text (my favorite bad example is catacombs, all 6 members have to talk with the abt, but only one can do so at the same time, try to start actually reading the story, you have 5 people mad at you, or you all take 60 minutes until everyone read the story - bad game design decission here). After playing DDO now for some months I kind of feel the itch to replay Baldurs Gate, altough it IMHO has a worser engine, it somehow has an appealing overall story. Sometimes I think with the TR mechanics DDO could have made some more stories, like actual decissions that lead you through your eberron live, save korthos or pillage it - while second decission might lead you to an all alternate stormreach. (I know the difficulties of this, but just a general idea, Yes there might be less players in each "universe" - but on the other hand, I never understood why a game that is 100%ly divided into instances has to seperate into servers again with unbreachable barriers between them).

  11. #51
    Community Member TheDjinnFor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    As much as we would like to see a grind free MMO it will never happen and heres why

    1. MMO's need players
    2. Players like phat loots
    3. phat loots require work
    4. work in MMO's = grinding

    Wether your trying to puul it from a chest or get the right stuff to make it yourself grinding is the way you get it. This is just how it is. It sucks bu they just cant give the good stuff away every time.
    Bull. There are people still playing 5 and 10 year old games that haven't seen an update since they first came out, and they're still having fun. No, I'm not talking about online MMO's, I'm talking about console games/non-subscription games. See, what keeps players playing them is not because there's a grind, but because it's fun and competitive. People don't play counterstrike everyday to grind up phat lewtz, they play it because it's fun to do so and they enjoy facing other players. Players don't play Street Fighter games a lot so that they can level up; they do it because it is fun and they enjoy facing other players.

    All an MMO needs to do is to make doing the same thing over and over 'fun', and they don't even need to provide rewards for it.

  12. #52
    Community Member Kyrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDjinnFor View Post
    Bull. There are people still playing 5 and 10 year old games that haven't seen an update since they first came out, and they're still having fun. No, I'm not talking about online MMO's, I'm talking about console games/non-subscription games. See, what keeps players playing them is not because there's a grind, but because it's fun and competitive. People don't play counterstrike everyday to grind up phat lewtz, they play it because it's fun to do so and they enjoy facing other players. Players don't play Street Fighter games a lot so that they can level up; they do it because it is fun and they enjoy facing other players.

    All an MMO needs to do is to make doing the same thing over and over 'fun', and they don't even need to provide rewards for it.
    Name me a single example of a cooperative (as opposed to competitive) online multiplayer game with a similar lifespan.
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  13. #53
    Community Member Tumarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otherworld View Post
    ...

    Once you completed the list and turned in, your list resets with another random selection of quests.
    (And maybe DON'T scale the quests to your lvl, but make it so that you have to re-do some low lvl quests. Also, quests from chains should be left out.)
    Wow that sounds like a disgusting grind, without challenge :P

    Well two things i'd like to add:

    - The main problem is keeping people buisy. With no grind all powergamers would level 5 chars to level 20 in a week or 2 and leave the game again. Now I'm not saying i would miss them but Turbin as any company likes their money as much as yours. And grind without a reward isnt an option either, nobody would do it.

    -There are other games out there that take a complete different approach like Second LIfe... but they are a different genre of game and attract different people. Lots of people here like the numbercrunching and a certain amount of grind.

    To get a perfect balance in one game will just never work imho. Better have different games, some for flowersniffers, some For Powergamers and some for the "in between" folks. And from my experience i would put DDO in the "in between" area. No important PVP part helps there a lot... Just think what direction this game would take if you get out of a hard dungeon and 10 people are sitting infront of the door just to kill you and take your loot

  14. #54
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    If there's no grind, then there's nothing to do. If there's nothing to do, you quit the game. It's that simple.

    They can't pump out content as fast as you can finish them. That's a fact for any MMO. So in order to delay the players, they HAVE to put grind into the game.

    How can they reduce they grind?

    I think they should *increase* the timer for raids to at least 5-7 days. Then they can up the exp and drop rate dramatically on items/tokens. That way it'll feel less grindy, since you're running the instance less and getting more loot per run (but still the same loot per day on average). The 3 day timer that they currently have forces them to make the loot drops very low or require you to collect an enormous amount of tokens to get something, as well as forces the players to run the same place more often.

    What speaks for DDO as a non-grind game? It is very possible to reach the cap - level 20 (non-TR) without much feeling of a grind. Normal-Hard everything and you are easily at 1.900.000 XP. You do not need any of the uber gear to get there (contrary to what I heared of the top at WoW, if you don't have grindy-gear X dont even think about entering content Y).
    This is misleading. I have to correct this. You cannot compare leveling in DDO to end-game in WoW. You can certainly get to 1-80 in WoW just doing quests of your picking using any gear you want, just like you can get to 20 in DDO using pretty much anything. Yes, there is end-game content in WoW that will probably destroy you if you don't have X amount of gear, but the same can be said for DDO as well.

    Don't have silver/pure good weapon that costs a fortune to the newcomer? Enjoy seeing your 10 damage hits and feeling worthless. Go grind plat in low level quests to buy the weapon off the AH. Don't have boots for ToD? Good luck. Want to make one piece of GS? Ho ho, good luck with chests 4 and 5.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOTalk71 View Post
    You can avoid the grind in DDO, you just have to institute rules to limit yourself and play DDO like PnP.
    Can I have a flat leveling curve like PnP if I do this? Pretty-please?
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumarek View Post
    Aye stuff like that would help alot... you will still have to run the quests a couple times but you will at least see light at the end of the tunnel

    And maybe for Revers Refuge:

    On normal: random rune with no clue
    On hard: one random rune which tells you what they will do to you armor
    on elite: Selection of 3 random runes which tell you what they do
    Another option is increasing the drop rate and allowing more than two runes of the same type to stack. Allowing more chances and better ability to infer the collected items would make it much better but keep it within the existing framework.

    Allow more than 2 of the same type to stack means you can be definite that each stack is of a different type. So you can grind runs until you have a good set (say 10 stacks of 2+), then try the lottery.

  17. #57
    Community Member Marr0w1's Avatar
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    almost all these grind things are optional to enjoying the game, or being a good player/character, which is why I still think this game is relatively grind free.

    With the exception of some things like Gianthold, restricting content (and thus, fun) until you have completed the grind for certain items, almost all other grinding is optional.

    Some classes, and some builds are more gear intensive than others, but unlike other games where in a crowd of cookie cutter builds, only the top tier-gear people are effective, its perfectly possible to do without 90% of the gear in this game.

    Basic requirements to have fun and participate in raids are: A decent build, heavy fort, and something to hit people with if you are a melee... sure its nice to know that your toon is as maxed out as possible, but really that +2 exceptional str on your ToD ring is just adding 1 damage per hit... hardly gimping anyone without it.

    TL-DR: Its still grind-free imho, because all the stuff you grind for is pretty much optional to enjoying all the content the game has to offer (minus epic of course)

  18. #58
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    I think it's vitally important for player-developer respect for the developers to always, always, remember the cardinal rule: Grinding is only fun when you don't need to do it.

    As long as you [the developers] bear that in mind and apply it to all decisions in the future direction of the game, you'll be set.
    Last edited by Antheal; 04-19-2010 at 06:40 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumarek View Post
    Are there games out there with less grind... probably, havnt played one yet...
    there are lots of games out there that have less grind but totally less fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumarek View Post
    Ultimate grinding? hell no, play one of those asian MMORPG, that is ultimate grinding, DDO is a joke in comparison...
    If you are comparing DDO's 20lvls cap from asian games which mostly have 60-250 lvls as cap. if you do comparison that way, where do you think those chars will get the XP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumarek View Post
    In many you would have to sit your char on one place for like 10 hours and constantly click around without any challenge just to get to level 2 after getting the xp through questing. And I'm really not joking.

    DDO has its fair amount of grind and its getting worse... but it still has a good headstart
    I have played the worst game where killing monsters wont give any xp, you only get xp after submitting a quest which is kill 20-300monsters at lvl 1 to advance to lvl 2. if you have taken 10hours sitting and waiting to get your lvl 2 xp, you are doing something wrong. even the worst publisher wont make a game that will take 10 hours to get to a single lvl. counting up as xp progression and lvl progression wise, going to lvl 10 on your example will at least take 3 days and that is from lvl 9.


    *******************
    All MMOs are grind oriented, including DDO. DDO only have it on lower scale. As the other guys said, you can skip the other stuff that force you to grind.. Only the min/max persons will want all those uber items. And having all those items does not equate a good player, but a good player without those uber items can still shine with a lesser version.

  20. #60
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    Most of our points which people seem to be missing is grind keeps getting added to the game without lessening the existing grind. Mid-level grind for raid flagging (GH and Necro4) is just retarded, I can understand the grinding for gear but grinding for non-end-gaming flagging is just plain dumb.

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