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  1. #101
    Community Member Delt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Fair enough and thank you for your time.
    But I have to ask what's the specific gripe?
    These things you speak of are problems with a 3/4 Class in Epic, not problems specifically with this build, nor contradict any of Leslie's assertions, unless something was said further in the thread which I didn't read.
    He asserts that it's a good new player friendly build that even veterans can enjoy.
    Sure, no problem. I'll elaborate for you - but I won't recap the dumb things Leslie has said. The problem actually extents beyond Epic (to end game Norm/Hard/Elite content also). This build isn't new player friendly for the following reasons:

    - requires a lot of gear to get respectable to-hit numbers end game and even that is limited by the clickies/SP/songs between shrines
    - Will be clicky intensive for a great deal of content, depending on gear
    - THF specifically lacks synergy with 24/7 bard buffs
    - Will have a unclear role in PUGs will levelling and learning the game
    - Barb Rage specifically locks out casting/scrolls
    - Madstone is even more restrictive

    THF is new player friendly: as you say TWF has less to-hit.
    And especially since he has to start with a minimum 15 Dex AND has to have a +2 Tome at the appropriate time to even qualify for TWF Feats.
    The Fighter and Barbarian classes adds a little BAB even.
    Bard spells, by most Warchanters, are seldom used for CC, but for Extended Buffs.
    After a Bard Buffs and Sings, what is there to do?
    Beat things, cc or heal -- those are the options. But there should be a realistic appraisal of what a build can actually do. Further, because THF lacks the synergy to really benefit from 24/7 bard songs, THF is only deceptively "new player friendly". If you are gonna build a DPS bard, might as well do it properly for the class.

    So optimally a Bard should be what? 20th level for that last point of damage, even less to-hit so really don't bother at all with melee, and just spam cure spells and Heal scrolls?
    Sure, probably. But then again, I am a big fan of flavor builds too. Just because I don't think the OP should take a **** on the forum and tell players it's a cookie, doesn't mean I hate the build

    Go back and read what I said -- I never asserted anything more than that this is not a new player build -- it has plenty of warts. Unlike Leslie, I have played barb+bards... Two of them in fact, including a THF version.

    If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me. I feel dirty even bumping this thread.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    The fact, regardless of intent, of your point number 5 is technically correct while being purposefully dense in understanding the role of this build.

    ... The rest is pure garbage and ultimately extremely misleading to newbs.
    Yep, and Barb rage is simple to dismiss when necessary. The trick, again, is to know when to use and when not to rage. The fact the Barb rage is short is very useful for a bard because it lets him/her pick the fights to go all out in, while maintaining a non raged "stance" for the times healing/curing are in order. As for singing my heavily requested Inspire Courage and Ironskin Chant, I can do that when raged so its a no-lose situation there.

    Delt, I feel my build and Gunga's build simply offers more DPS options to newer plays right OUT-of-the-BOX. When to use them, and which ones to stack is up to the user's discretion. If you have a better bard, that can accomplish what we propose here, then post it.

    Gunga's build thread is bent towards the vet player, my build thread is bent towards the newer player, or first time bard. In reality, the builds are carbon copies, except for the race and race alterations that are required/beneficial to each build. We have privately helped new players and vet players achieve their goals in association with our bard builds, so please dont try to assume we don't have the game knowledge or the desire to go all out to help a fellow bard out. You will lose.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-26-2010 at 08:16 PM.


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  3. #103
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delt View Post
    Lol...huh? What exactly are you yapping about? 4 levels of your build? You mean bard? Level 4 is end game now? Or is it you think players are only new from levels 1-4?

    As for not understanding the "role"...lol, well, you can madstone on a battle sorc too...it doesn't mean I think it's smart nor would I recommend new players roll up WF battle sorcs.

    Anyway, I lost ya but I'm pretty sure you lost yourself too. Try to form a coherant thought and PM me. Don't worry Gunga, I won't wait up
    ? Doesn't a "new player" have to level with no gear?

    Sorry you got so lost so quickly. Don't hold your breath waiting for a PM.

    Question yourself before questioning my lucidity. I'm smarter and my bard is better.

  4. #104

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    I want to apologize to those out there that simply want to find a bard build that will suit them. Hopefully the elitist bickering back-and-forth doesn't last for too many more pages, we shall see.

    I will always be here to answer questions about my build, no matter how simple, with fervor.


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  5. #105
    Community Member jadenkorr's Avatar
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    I think my post got buried under the flurry of arguments, but once again, i went to check the compendium and it states,

    Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Usage: Passive
    Cost: 1 action point
    Spent: 3 action points
    Available to Bard class level 2
    Grants a 30% increase to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells.

    So I think bards cant take bard wand and scroll mastery I with 1 level of bard, at level 3, unless the compendium is wrong.

  6. #106
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    I like your build very much Leslie and have a lv4 currently =D

    And i'm also a big fan of quarterstaff so my question is, are there any changes could be made to make this build more good at using quarterstaff lol?

    Also i notice that my AC's a bit low, i'm worried about whether AC would be a weakness of this build.

    Thanks again Leslie for the fun build XD"

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadenkorr View Post
    I think my post got buried under the flurry of arguments, but once again, i went to check the compendium and it states,

    Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Usage: Passive
    Cost: 1 action point
    Spent: 3 action points
    Available to Bard class level 2
    Grants a 30% increase to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells.

    So I think bards cant take bard wand and scroll mastery I with 1 level of bard, at level 3, unless the compendium is wrong.
    Very good catch jadenkorr. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner, I didn't see it for the reason you suggested or would have answered you.

    Sometimes it's easy for us vets to get confused with some of the details of levels 1-4 since Turbine's veterans status (we get to start at level 4 now) came into play. That's such a basic question but not being at home now (on a business trip) I just don't remember exactly what I did. I always thought of it as a level 1 enhancement, but I could be wrong. I'll update it later when I get home. If anyone can verify before then, please feel free.

    Come to think of it, the builder states level 1 and the game description I believe states level 2. I know for sure both state you must spend 3 action points before you can open up W&S Mastery. So if I'm right, we are going to find out who's got the typo Either way, I'll update the OP when we get to the bottom of it.

    So for now, just tell your friend to switch a level 1 and 2 enhancement around if they haven't already...
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-27-2010 at 02:19 AM.


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  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naigorf View Post
    I like your build very much Leslie and have a lv4 currently =D

    And i'm also a big fan of quarterstaff so my question is, are there any changes could be made to make this build more good at using quarterstaff lol?

    Also i notice that my AC's a bit low, i'm worried about whether AC would be a weakness of this build.

    Thanks again Leslie for the fun build XD"
    Your welcome! Just change the slashing feats to bludgeoning and you are set! Quarterstaffs and Mauls are decent bard choices. However, vorpals are slashing only so you'll need to understand your to-hit will always be notch lower on slashers. Going bludgeoning will also synergize nicely with weighted weapons which in line will boost your stunning blow.

    As for AC, most bards don't even try for AC, especially dex deficient bards (and also you cant mix monk/bards for the dex/wis bonus), because a meaningful and effective AC just won't happen. Your best defense are your buffs, haste/stoneskin/displacement make a pretty darn good line of defense for a bard.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-27-2010 at 01:41 AM.


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  9. #109
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    Thanks for the reply leslie!

    So i guess i have to swap a feat for stunning blow, for example the second toughness?

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naigorf View Post
    Thanks for the reply leslie!

    So i guess i have to swap a feat for stunning blow, for example the second toughness?
    My pleasure To fit in stunning blow, yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards myself.

    2nd toughness goes, especially for a bludgeoning spec. Then, be sure to utilize your stunning blow & trip! You'd be surprised how many people have them (everyone has trip) and barely use it...


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  11. #111
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    So what i have to do are to drop 2nd toughness, take stunning blow, and the stunning blow enchancement =D

    One more question=p do i have to rely on scrolls and wands for self heal at early stage before getting Cure Serious Wounds at lv11 ?

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naigorf View Post
    So what i have to do are to drop 2nd toughness, take stunning blow, and the stunning blow enchancement =D

    One more question=p do i have to rely on scrolls and wands for self heal at early stage before getting Cure Serious Wounds at lv11 ?
    Yes. You got it....

    You can take the lesser healing spells but they are really not useful because you arent speccing for healing early. And by mid levels, those same lowbie heal spells you'll be tossing for better spells. Wands are cheaper so use wands early on. Heal scrolls and cure mass mod scrolls later on, as soon as you can use them. Then wands get pushed back to a secondary form of healing... in between fights/on the run/toons with lesser hp like casters etc...
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-27-2010 at 02:50 AM.


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  13. #113
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    got it!

    Thanks for answering my noob questions =D

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naigorf View Post
    got it!

    Thanks for answering my noob questions =D
    No problem. Feel free to come back and ask any questions you may have. Good luck!


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  15. #115

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    Time to sleep. Those who like my kind of music may like this one:

    Killers is the second album by English heavy metal band Iron Maiden, released in February 1981 in the UK, and June, 1981 in the US.

    Bards are the true rebels, and know how to ROCK, what can I say

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PHAwWUx21U
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-27-2010 at 03:59 AM.


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  16. #116
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Quarterstaffs and Mauls are decent bard choices.
    What?

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    What?
    You heard me. Quarterstaffs can be used with no penalty. Any bard can use these. Mauls are even better if you are mixed class for skellies and even some monsters that have DR vs. slashing. (which is described as DR Blugeoning or DR Puncturing, since monster DR is described by the method NEEDED to beat it)

    Please understand, I'm talking about mixed class, THF DPS oriented bards. I'm also talking about pre-greensteel. And.. I'm only talking situationally, depending on the mobs. A greataxe/falchion are of course the weapons of choice for this build. But mauls/quarterstaff should find room in a DPS bards weapon inventory just like any other greater bane/vorpal/paralyzer/improved cursespuing/improved destruction or whatever your DPS game will consist of. Its another tool in the shed, and in this context, I believe they are decent, if not necessary to complete your collection of pre-greensteel weaponry.

    If someone wants to go bludgeoning thats their choice. If they spec for it, they will still do pretty good dps. I prefer slashing, for the overall-higher DPS (significantly higher in some cases), but weighted/bludgoening is unquestionably synergistic, so its a decent path if you happen to like quarterstaffs or mauls.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-27-2010 at 09:58 AM.


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  18. #118
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quick question - and this is not just for this build alone, but for the various deep splashes we're seeing as of late (anywhere from 14-16 bard levels): how effect is Otto's at end-game (epic and non epic) with so few Bard levels? Is the hit to spell pen noticeable?
    (i.e. pure build would have a spell pen of +22 with capstone. current warchanter builds are +14-18)

    Additionally, how is your SP at end-game with anywhere from 2-6 non-casting levels in there?
    (i.e. if you backup heal and/or use otto's a good chunk, do you have the SP for it?).

    My experiences are mostly with a Spellsinger SP pool, so I'm curious how the Warchanters are holding up for healing/buffing/Otto's Dancing.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Quick question - and this is not just for this build alone, but for the various deep splashes we're seeing as of late (anywhere from 14-16 bard levels): how effect is Otto's at end-game (epic and non epic) with so few Bard levels? Is the hit to spell pen noticeable?
    (i.e. pure build would have a spell pen of +22 with capstone. current warchanter builds are +14-18)

    Additionally, how is your SP at end-game with anywhere from 2-6 non-casting levels in there?
    (i.e. if you backup heal and/or use otto's a good chunk, do you have the SP for it?).

    My experiences are mostly with a Spellsinger SP pool, so I'm curious how the Warchanters are holding up for healing/buffing/Otto's Dancing.
    I havent dug Soundburst as much as I thought I would. So I'll be taking that one out of my OP when I get a chance. Otto's however is sticking well. I have very high hopes for Irresistible Dance and fascinate, as the math will be plenty high at end game to land either at will.

    Since I'm working many more hours than I have in quite some time, its taking me time to level Ghengis. I'm just at level 12 now. However, I'm extremely happy with this build. It is fun from the second a quest starts til the time it ends. This guy can do a LOT.

    Warchanter buffing is a step above spellsinger/virtuoso's fabulous buffing on the DPS side. However, if a spellsinger actually spams his spellsong trance (almost none do that I see, and I watch bards very closely), that may very well may boost a spellsinger bard into the #1 spot when it comes to buffing for most quests in the game.

    However, at end game, the extra DPS granted from the fortified Inspire Damage line in my opinion boosts warchanters ahead for many of the end game quests that benefit most from overwhelming DPS.

    --Spell point pool: You will DEFINATELY feel constrained for mana on a warchanter. There is just NO WAY you are going to feel like you have enough spell points if you build a warchanter AFTER you build a spellsinger. However, I don't use my blue bar for healing very much, just emergency healing. A warchanter uses scrolls and wands however every bit as good as a spellsinger. So, healing effectively at end game becomes as easy as building your wand & scroll mastery. One other very powerful avenue opens for warchanters as you get close to end game. I torc and/or concord opposition greensteel are TAILOR MADE for this build. The more I get hit, the faster I get healed AND get mana back. Everyone building this toon should strive for both of those items.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-30-2010 at 04:47 PM.


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  20. #120
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    There are a couple of things I dont understand, Leslie
    1) In your skills calculator setup, you have Level 3(Barbarian) taking "Bard Wand Mastery I" enhancement. I was not at all able to pick that, as it requires bard lvl2. How did you manage that?

    2) In Level 4 (Barbarian) you have the character take "Barbarian Constitution I". It did not show up as a choice to me at all. It shows if I tick "Show Unavailable" as costing 2 points, and available to Barb lvl2, but Im still not able to take it, even with 2 barb levels.

    Did you actually do this build, or did you put it together using the skill calculator, thus not being able to check that your allocations actually work? Ive been slavically following the build, so I dont quite understand this

    Thanks for your massive effort, and continued support in this thread

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