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  1. #41
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    Default toughness twice?

    You took a second toughness feat at level 3. Is it really needed, as feats seem to be tight. Is there another feat you would recommend instead for someone if they choose not to take the second toughness feat?

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pintail View Post
    You took a second toughness feat at level 3. Is it really needed, as feats seem to be tight. Is there another feat you would recommend instead for someone if they choose not to take the second toughness feat?
    Hit points are going to be a highlight of this build. I like the extra hit points, which are "built in" and always available if needed.

    But sure, you can easily lose the 2nd toughness. Quicken might be helpful for spamming healing spells quickly, so you can get back to swinging your weapon faster. Works wonders for CC too. Even heighten may make sense to increase the DC of your lower bard spells.

    Another way to go, that I'm actually contemplating, is working in Stunning Blow. Stunning blow synergizes great in this build because you can get STR up real high, and the stun DC is based on your STR. DC 10 + STR mod. So basically when you are raging, this is JUST NOT GOOD for the bad guys

    Immune: Undead, red and purple named.

    It's a Fortitude save for the monster, so it works better vs casters then fighters. If stunned, you (and the rest of your party) get auto sneak and auto critical.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-18-2010 at 06:42 PM.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    In terms of hit, most Bard/Fighter/Rogue builds use racial weapons which offset the -2 penalty. So you're talking a truly minimal difference in hit. Even then, a TWF B/F/R who hits on a 3+ will out-dps a THF B/F/B who hits on a 2+ because the B/F/B build simply doesn't get the THF advantages necessary to bridge the gap in single target dps.

    Except the idea that YOU proposed could not take racial weapon enhancements, since Warforged don't have any. How does this relate to the overall agenda that you're trying to push? At all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    When you engage in such silliness, it just means people stop taking you seriously.
    The irony! It tickles!
    Last edited by hidaan; 04-18-2010 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #44
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    Default Dwarf?

    Though I understand that it would be difficult but could a 32 point bld dwarf get enough cha later on to work this and save you the second toughness feat via racial toughness enhancements as well as opening up Axe stuff for DPS and armor enhancements for AC???

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalikorz View Post
    Though I understand that it would be difficult but could a 32 point bld dwarf get enough cha later on to work this and save you the second toughness feat via racial toughness enhancements as well as opening up Axe stuff for DPS and armor enhancements for AC???
    Oh yeah. It would be fairly simple to go dwarf on this build. The -2 CHA tho is a slight setback on my personal plan for this build, hampering my healing/cc a tad more than I'd like. Getting those 2 CHA points back forces me to take from areas I definitely don't want to touch. I prefer the range of benefits human brings to the table. Human adaptability allows me two free stat points as well.

    However, there's definitely a build path worth exploring going dwarf. Not only can you build axe to-hit and damage, but you get the great dwarven spell defense enhancement line (it stacks with resistance items!), +4 to balance, +2 saves vs poison, +2 to con.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-18-2010 at 10:51 PM.


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  6. #46
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    Hey, I've just recently created a Warchanter as my first ever DDO character and I'm having fun with him.

    He's level 7 now (1barb/6bard, 1 rank away from finally getting Warchanter ench.) and I've mostly been following tihocan's build suggestions. I've noticed that you added an extra level of both barb and fighter, so I'm wondering what are the exact benefits and drawbacks of either having 1 or 2 levels of each of those classes?

    And, what about weapons? I've been using greatswords (mostly because I simply found greatswords with better modifiers than falchions/greataxes), but I've noticed that some people prefer both falchions and axes, why? Is it a personal choice (depending on whether I like pure dmg or a higher crit chance/multiplier), or is there a weapon class that's just "better" for Warchanters?

  7. #47
    Community Member Anderei's Avatar
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    He's level 7 now (1barb/6bard, 1 rank away from finally getting Warchanter ench.) and I've mostly been following tihocan's build suggestions. I've noticed that you added an extra level of both barb and fighter, so I'm wondering what are the exact benefits and drawbacks of either having 1 or 2 levels of each of those classes?
    Currently as the game is there is nothing but advantages to go 16/4 instead of 18/2

    tihocan tries to build his path replacements rather conservative staying mostly pure as possible. Other example is his acrobat rogue path, where imho it would make much more sense to go 13/6/1 instead of staying mostly pure. But I consider its by design of the original path idea to stay at 18 levels at most.

    The main issue is. not knowing if DDO is going to ever have Premium III Enhancements for the bard avaiable, if they do, you likely want to be 18 pure, However, I don't see any signs right now of them improving the bards PrEs. At least for a year or so.
    Last edited by Anderei; 04-20-2010 at 08:37 AM.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderei View Post
    Currently as the game is there is nothing but advantages to go 16/4 instead of 18/2

    tihocan tries to build his path replacements rather conservative staying mostly pure as possible. Other example is his acrobat rogue path, where imho it would make much more sense to go 13/6/1 instead of staying mostly pure. But I consider its by design of the original path idea to stay at 18 levels at most.

    The main issue you are is not knowing if DDO is going to have Premium III Enhancements for the bard avaiable, if they do, you likely want to be 18 pure, I don't see any signs however of them improving the bards PrEs.
    Turbine wont improve bard PrEs anytime soon. If/when they do, and they are better than what I've built, theres always reincarnation. I always build based on good pen & paper theology, and alter it to best fit DDO game mechanics. Then, if it doesnt fit my playstyle, I wont roll it, if it does, I do. I've only had to re-roll once, in all the years I played.

    Why greataxes/falcions?

    My decision truthfully is based on DDO game mechanics and experience as much as the "on paper" math.

    Greataxes have more consistent high numbers and a greater multiplier than either falchions or greatswords. Also there are the animations to figure in. Greatsword and Greatclub are still too lethargic for my taste to even consider. The most damage per second goes to greataxe then falcion in most every test I've done and tests I've seen on the forums concur with my findings. Most importantly is the twitch favors the greataxe because of swing speed and length of the weapon. (Now, considerations have to be made for certain exceptions, Epic Sword of Shadows is sick.)

    Why greataxe over falchion? Better base damage and bigger crits. 19-20 crit weapons are inconsistent. You'll do those big numbers only on 19-20, but also crits on 16+ with the improved crit slashing feat... Simply put, X3 crit > X2 crit.

    If I take Stunning Blow, which I'm almost certain I'll fit in at this point, Greataxes are without a doubt the better way to go. For a THF, a stunned mob will be killed quickest with a Greataxe.

    Now, as you build your toon, if you find a really good Falchion or Greatsword, by all means use it. Id use any two handed weapon (with the exception of the always sad great clubs) with good prefixes/suffixes. Just keep upgrading them at every opportunity.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-20-2010 at 10:55 AM.


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  9. #49
    Community Member jadenkorr's Avatar
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    Hello there, nice, informative guide.

    My friend is levelling this character and loving it, but he just wants to know, what are the enhancements for Level 1-2? It seems to be missing from the list.

  10. #50
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    I very much like the build and have one at lv4 currently =p

    but i'm worried whether AC would be a weakness of the build

    thx for the nice build anyway =D

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by hidaan View Post
    Except the idea that YOU proposed could not take racial weapon enhancements, since Warforged don't have any. How does this relate to the overall agenda that you're trying to push? At all?
    I suggested Warforged instead of Human for a two-handed fighter, since (aside from the superior durability) Warforged received bonuses to both Power Attack and glancing blows.

    I also pointed out that a more conventional 16 Bard/2 Fighter/2 Rogue two-weapon fighter didn't actually have a problem hitting compared to a two-handed build for two reasons. The first was that twf tended to use racial weapons (which receive a +hit bonus) and the second was that TWF use full attack chains of -2/-2/+3/+8 rather than twitch attack chains of -4/-4.

    Which of these points confused you?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Flavor my butt. Going rogue does not guarantee more DPS than non-rogue. Going 16/2/2 will ensure you can hit in any circumstance. I've heard many TWF cry they cant connect on epic content. Not so with a properly outfitted Bard/Fighter/Barbarian. Since you need only focus on strength to affect your to hit and damage check this end game math (depending on a few pieces of high end gear of course)

    36 STR 18 + 2 tome + 1 litany + 1 human + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 5 levels
    +4 barbarian rage + 2 rage spell + 4 double madstone + 6 titan grip + 8 scourge + 2 yugo + 2 store = 36+28 = 64 STRENGTH

    28 CON
    17 + 2 tome + 1 litany + 1 human + 1 exceptional + 6 item (+2 insight)
    +4 barbarian rage + 2 rage spell + 8 double madstone + 8 scourge + 2 yugo + 2 store = 28+18 = 54 CONSTITUTION

    Naturally, this gear isnt easy to find (Titan's Grip and Scourge Choker). However they would work extremely well on a build like this and should be sought. Some of these buffs are temporary in nature, so learning HOW TO USE YOUR CLICKIES are very important. This build is specifically geared to hit ANYTHING in the game, at ANY level, and hit it HARD.

    This math is realistic and attainable, and anyone who tells you this isnt "end game math" just doesnt know what he/she is talking about.

    It's really tough to create a build that would work in the hands of a new player AND vet alike. I think this build would work as intended with ANY type of gear found... and would scale nicely as you found higher end gear.

    The idea of very short spurts of very high strength and con, when desired, gels perfectly well in boss fights... and is very fun and effective to play

    PS: For those new to the game, don't get too wrapped up in named/raid gear. Named drops and raid drops will come in time. Until that time comes, always look for the best DPS weapons you can find.. be it the House D vendor, Inspired Quarters vendor, Amrath vendor, or the auction house. Find a good guild, and guildies will help you acquire good gear.
    The Strength and Con you post here wont help much in epic content. Unless you have 3 - 4 pairs of titan grip gloves and 6 -7 of your 2 minute rages. Not to mention I guess your not going to dance or stun mobs or use displacements so you can hope to keep your scourge choker procing all the time. And this also means your going to have to out dps the true melee characters.

    I dont see a problem playing this char but dont make it out to be more than it is and thats support only in a group.
    (Khyber) Kasen - Kisa - Natali - Maitas - Jaslyn - Tekeda - Alydar - Tammi - Khenti - Luthius - Meckabot

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    I suggested Warforged instead of Human for a two-handed fighter, since (aside from the superior durability) Warforged received bonuses to both Power Attack and glancing blows.

    Which of these points confused you?
    You conveniently leave out the negative to-hit handicap that accompanies the warforged power attack line. Thats a to-hit pentalty this build never sees and is definately felt as you level in misses, ESPECIALLY to a TWF, who out-of-the-box possesses a natural negative to-hit for going TWF. Thats why you see TWF going THF early in their builds because they cant hit the broad side of a parked 747 until they get their to-hit up to a satisfactory level.

    You know NOTHING Hjarki about twitch. YOU need not go near that math.

    For the rest of the inquiring bards out there that are thinking of twitching...

    The best time to "twitch" is after the 2nd swing.

    The greatest possible % increase in DPS associated with twitching immediately after the 2nd swing is (this takes great skill):

    1HF: 19%
    2HF: 50%
    2WF: 16%

    The "why Twitch on TWO" math:

    Swing 1 takes, on average, 409 ms (milliseconds, or 1/1000 of a second).
    Swing 2 takes, on average, 606 ms
    Swing 3 takes, on average, 892 ms
    Swing 4 takes, on average, 672 ms
    Swing 5 takes, on average, 1278 ms

    So, adding it up, all 5 attacks in the sequence take, on average, 3.796 seconds. So, by repeating the full attack sequence over and over again, you get 5/3.796 = 1.31 attacks/second

    The first 2 attacks in the sequence, added together, take 1.015 seconds. If you are *able* to repeat only the first two attacks over and over again, you could get to get 2/1.015 = 1.97 attacks/second.

    1.97/1.31 = 1.50, or a 50% increase in attacks/second.


    This is a major reason how the DPS "pros" on here such as Shade can post videos with outrageous accomplishments. Twitching adds absurd DPS and THF benefit the most from twitching.

    This build doesn't need to twitch at all. You will still out-dps many, many TWF and warforged characters in your career.

    Just focus on finding and buying good GEAR, don't get awash in the math, because the "math" is never of greater importance than your enjoyment playing your bard. Play what excites you.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-26-2010 at 01:08 PM.


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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasen_Darksword View Post
    The Strength and Con you post here wont help much in epic content. Unless you have 3 - 4 pairs of titan grip gloves and 6 -7 of your 2 minute rages. Not to mention I guess your not going to dance or stun mobs or use displacements so you can hope to keep your scourge choker procing all the time. And this also means your going to have to out dps the true melee characters.
    I dont see a problem playing this char but dont make it out to be more than it is and thats support only in a group.
    Sure it will help. All the tools are at your disposal. I will be stunning, dancing, fascinating, displacing... This build is not designed to "keep rages up". If I wanted to do that I would have rolled in 6 barb and went frenzied. No need. I don't choose to be as focused as you type here. My style is extreme DPS when needed most, but always utilizing what makes a bard so requested in any group. The songs/buffs, the fascinates, healing, the cures.

    You apparently look down on "support builds".. I consider "support" a vital component of completing the toughest quests in the game, including epic content. Said in another way, great "support" normally equates to victory.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-26-2010 at 12:43 PM.


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  15. #55
    Community Member jadenkorr's Avatar
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    Hello there, very nice guide, its really newbie-friendly. My friend is using this guide to build his bard, but would like to know what are the enhancements at Level 1 & 2? They seem to be missing from the character planner. Were both new, so I cant really advise him on that.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadenkorr View Post
    Hello there, very nice guide, its really newbie-friendly. My friend is using this guide to build his bard, but would like to know what are the enhancements at Level 1 & 2? They seem to be missing from the character planner. Were both new, so I cant really advise him on that.
    Hey Jadenkorr. Thank you very much. Sorry about the delay. Went away for a few days

    Updated!


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  17. #57
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasen_Darksword View Post
    The Strength and Con you post here wont help much in epic content. Unless you have 3 - 4 pairs of titan grip gloves and 6 -7 of your 2 minute rages. Not to mention I guess your not going to dance or stun mobs or use displacements so you can hope to keep your scourge choker procing all the time. And this also means your going to have to out dps the true melee characters.

    I dont see a problem playing this char but dont make it out to be more than it is and thats support only in a group.
    Sure it will. It'll help more then not having those scores in your Strength and Con. And you're as capable of supporting the party as most any other Bards: Songs and Buffs.
    Sure it's a support role. Barbarians need someone to keep them alive and every bit of dps helps kill the Mobs faster, helping conserve resources.
    I don't think it's being touted as anything more then a fun and useful way to learn and play the game. It's an Endgame capable Supporter. I built a Bard very much like this long ago. And he was much more viable then my first complete Cha based Heavy Repeater using Bard and a lot more fun to boot.

  18. #58
    Community Member jadenkorr's Avatar
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    Ah, thanks very much for the quick update. Just one more thing, I forgot to mention, my friend was saying something about Bard Wand Mastery I needing 2 levels of bard to take it. So he was unable to take it at L3, as he had 1 bard and 2 barb levels.

    Also as a sort of side question, would it be possible to fit in haggle on this build?

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I don't think it's being touted as anything more then a fun and useful way to learn and play the game. It's an Endgame capable Supporter.
    You nailed it. I stear clear of making any "elite, best of game, super duper, TOP DPS claims" because most readers understand many of those builds are concept builds with perfect world scenarios such as +4 tomes and all the named raid gear figured in. This build is about fun, whether you normally raid all day long or you just started the game last week. There are a LOT of tools at your disposal in this build.

    This is a real build anyone can start, and build into a top contributor. Player skill and gear will be the ONLY indicators whether you become a help or a hinderance to the end game content.


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  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadenkorr View Post
    Ah, thanks very much for the quick update. Just one more thing, I forgot to mention, my friend was saying something about Bard Wand Mastery I needing 2 levels of bard to take it. So he was unable to take it at L3, as he had 1 bard and 2 barb levels.

    Also as a sort of side question, would it be possible to fit in haggle on this build?
    No, you can take Bard Wand & Scroll Mastery I at level 1 bard. Id drop the hide/move silently skills and push that haggle!

    The great thing about enhancements is if he makes a mistake and/or wants to change an enhancement or two later, he can reshuffle the deck for "a few plat" at anytime


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