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  1. #21
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    Flavor my butt. Going rogue does not guarantee more DPS than non-rogue. Going 16/2/2 will ensure you can hit in any circumstance. I've heard many TWF cry they cant connect on epic content. Not so with a properly outfitted Bard/Fighter/Barbarian. Since you need only focus on strength to affect your to hit and damage check this end game math (depending on a few pieces of high end gear of course)
    Going Rogue does not guarantee more DPS than non-Rogue. However, it will normally deliver more dps since 2 levels of Rogue grants +6 damage/attack Sneak Attack. While this isn't as meaningful for a THF build, I was explaining why TWF went Rogue instead of Barbarian.

    In terms of hit, most Bard/Fighter/Rogue builds use racial weapons which offset the -2 penalty. So you're talking a truly minimal difference in hit. Even then, a TWF B/F/R who hits on a 3+ will out-dps a THF B/F/B who hits on a 2+ because the B/F/B build simply doesn't get the THF advantages necessary to bridge the gap in single target dps.

    Also, I'm not sure why you think that Strength doesn't affect hit and damage for one-handed weapons. It does. If you examine the common multi-class Warchanter TWF builds you'll notice they put levelling points into Strength.

    In terms of "flavor", your build - like your Haggle Queen - is a "flavor" build. It is not optimized for endgame play. It will be much easier to level than a TWF build of the sort I was talking about because THF starts out much stronger than TWF, but once you're breaking in the early-to-mid-teens, the TWF will do more damage and have the potential to throw far more effects. You've also chosen a race for flavor rather than optimal play - as I pointed out on another thread, Warforged is a far better choice for this build.

    Rogue doesnt always give you more dps. You also wont top out glancing blows by only going 12 bard. BAB can be made up with divine power scrolls. You will have the umd to use them easily. This is a great new player build. And untill they break out tier2-3 bard pre's its what id go with. Unless you really feel you need evasion.
    Divine Power doesn't actually add BAB. It just adds +hit and (perhaps) a bit of BAB-adjusted haste. Equip a two-handed weapon on a level 10 FvS/Clr and start swinging it with and without Divine Power. What you'll discover is that while you do get Strength and a better chance to hit, the size of your glancing blows doesn't change. You can also perform this test with Manyshot (although such characters are less common).

    In terms of "trash talking", I'm not sure why accurate information annoys certain people on these forums, but many long-time posters seem to get offended that someone might have the temerity to correct their inaccuracies. However, I'm pretty sure that new players prefer not having nonsense thrust on them and then finding out 15 levels later they made crucial build mistakes.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    Going Rogue does not guarantee more DPS than non-Rogue .... While this isn't as meaningful for a THF build,
    Thank you for repeating exactly what I said earlier.

    I'll take your nonsense one step further. In order to maximine your rogue backstab/sneak attack bonus you need to take 3 levels of rogue. That leaves you with 15 bard/3 rogue/2 fighter. Two very valuable reasons I went 16 bard is for Mass Cure Moderate Wounds and Otto Irresistible Dance. With mana pots in a pinch a 16 bard / 2 [insert class here] / 2 [insert class here] can actually do the healing duties in raids or quests assuming specced as such (and this is where Life Magic IV comes into play, 40% better healing that stacks with items). Genghis never forgets he is a bard first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    In terms of hit, most Bard/Fighter/Rogue builds use racial weapons which offset the -2 penalty. So you're talking a truly minimal difference in hit.
    False. All rogues dont use racial weapons. "Rogues" are not even a race. It's a class. Inaccurate... along with the rest of that paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    Divine Power doesn't actually add BAB. It just adds +hit and (perhaps) a bit of BAB-adjusted haste.
    Holy cow. Another COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of your self-adored elitism.

    Divine Power:
    The divine power of a god imbues the caster with power and skill in combat, granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, 1 temporary hit point per cast level, and a base attack bonus equal to a fighter of the same level.
    --> DDO Compendium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    In terms of "trash talking", I'm not sure why accurate information annoys certain people on these forums, but many long-time posters seem to get offended that someone might have the temerity to correct their inaccuracies.
    Vets are giving you **** because of the way you carry yourself on this forum. Because it's quite appearant to most vets (and now many newer players as well) I've read responding to your rantings, that they realize you do not understand the game mechanics you try to talk about. You have gotten so much blatantly WRONG, I've been wondering a while now if you are misinforming people on purpose. Its gross negligence either way...

    Im done discussing this build with you. Sorry it doesn't meet your expectations. Good luck playing DDO.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-14-2010 at 08:41 AM.


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  3. #23

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    Thinking of later-game armors... so many to choose from. Thinking of a Dragontouched robe with +5 resistance, +6 charisma, and destruction (or radiance guard). Seems like this would synergise great with this build. Thoughts? Can anyone think of anything better suited?
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-14-2010 at 09:02 AM.


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  4. #24
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    The Resistance 5 and Radiance Guard are good. Not sure about the CHA 6 though. Not going to use the bard's cloak? Really not much else better for a bard in a cloak slot unless you plan on making full allotments of greensteel hehe.

    Heck my Rogue is an elf just doesn't have the AP for that line. It is just MORE cost effective to get + hit from sneak attack enchancments and flanking incombat , then trying to increase your tohit with 'racial weapons' as a rogue.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuney View Post
    Not going to use the bard's cloak?
    Im a big fan of the bards cloak, but on this build, I'm thinking of opening up the cloak spot for another greensteel option. My thinking is if I don't fascinate often, the perform is sitting there just wasting a spot. I can hot-swap perform in easily when needed. The +6 CHA is the only other thing on the bards cloak, and +6 CHA can go in so many other spaces.

    But you are right, bards cloak is very nice and still can find a home on this build (especially until reavers refuge churns out the preferred recipe )...
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-14-2010 at 09:31 AM.


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  6. #26
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    Yeah I know if you were more focused in spellcasting then the napkin could easily replace the Bard's cloak... But You could use the cloak as a 'hot slot' for resists then for times when you don't need more then 1 resist when soloing or trying to save SP for casters.

    As it only Cloaks that come to my mind are Napkin, Bard's cloak and Cloak of Shadows... Which funny enough are all 3 cloaks my own bard have right now.

  7. #27
    Community Member Anderei's Avatar
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    Nice build, and interesting the level progression, while I usually tried to get warchanter I ASAP you took all the melee stuff at the beginning, yes good idea.

    What I would change would be moving the second Toughness feat up until later, especially at the beginning it doesnt make much difference and there are surely more useful stuff to move there.

    I'm not sure about maximize, whats the rational behind it? might replace with empower healing (even for a melee-bard its a nice to have), maximizing a shout good and nice, but hmmm, not a big DPS anyway, its all about the stunning.

  8. #28
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
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    mantle of the worldshaper.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valindria View Post
    mantle of the worldshaper.
    Nice, stuck that in the starter/early level section, will want to replace this later on tho. Extra XP and true seeing (combined with Voice) are not a bad thing.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-14-2010 at 10:05 AM.


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  10. #30
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    Yeah but Mantle is something you don't want to wear 24/7. Just like a resist cloak. It is situwational. Don't want to lose all the charges on junk.

    Though I'll give you the Combo mantle/Voice of the Master for DM vision is nice if you get it at early levels.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderei View Post
    Nice build, and interesting the level progression, while I usually tried to get warchanter I ASAP you took all the melee stuff at the beginning, yes good idea.

    What I would change would be moving the second Toughness feat up until later, especially at the beginning it doesnt make much difference and there are surely more useful stuff to move there.

    I'm not sure about maximize, whats the rational behind it? might replace with empower healing (even for a melee-bard its a nice to have), maximizing a shout good and nice, but hmmm, not a big DPS anyway, its all about the stunning.
    Thanks Anderei. Yeah when I laid out the build, it became obvious to me that taking melee levels early is far better than going for Warchanter I. Common theory has always been to get Warchanter asap, however, I like melee first because I can use all the weapons I want right away. Fighter haste boost. BAB. Rage. Speed. Thats a massive difference in DPS that 6 levels of bard just cant measure up to.

    I'm leaning heavily towards maximize, unless I can be swayed to go empower healing. I proved to many doubters that empower healing is the preferred way for spellsinger to go because of healing/mana cost.

    However for this build, I wont get nearly as many opportunities to heal, I'll be swinging a weapon. Therefore, when I do hit, I want more healing per cast, even at slightly higher mana cost. Not ruling empower healing out... but think maximize might make more sense.


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  12. #32
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    Yeah if you had to pick between 1 of the two. You'd have two differnt lines of thoughts.

    Better effienecy which is better if you are main healing and thus go for Empower healing.

    Or will you just spot healing and want your heals to hit for as much as possable and not carring about SP to HP effeiency then Maxmize will be for you.

    If I was standing on the front lines (Assuming always making the cast) I would want my spell to land for as much as possable so I'd live as well to keep on healing for as long as my SP lasted.

    And look at it this way, you don't have to waste an extra slot for 'empower healing effenecy' as the gloves of the glacier have Extend and maximize.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    I'll take your nonsense one step further. In order to maximine your rogue backstab/sneak attack bonus you need to take 3 levels of rogue. That leaves you with 15 bard/3 rogue/2 fighter. Two very valuable reasons I went 16 bard is for Mass Cure Moderate Wounds and Otto Irresistible Dance. With mana pots in a pinch a 16 bard / 2 [insert class here] / 2 [insert class here] can actually do the healing duties in raids or quests assuming specced as such (and this is where Life Magic IV comes into play, 40% better healing that stacks with items). Genghis never forgets he is a bard first.
    And if you took 7 levels of Barbarian and 13 levels of Bard, you wouldn't have much of a Bard either. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Just because you took 2 levels of Rogue does not somehow force you to take 3. Nor did I ever suggest that the builds I was talking about took 3 levels of Rogue, so you're really just trying to debate against a straw man.

    When you engage in such silliness, it just means people stop taking you seriously.

    False. All rogues dont use racial weapons. "Rogues" are not even a race. It's a class. Inaccurate... along with the rest of that paragraph.
    Your build did not use racial weapons. Many of the 16/2/2 Bard/Rogue/Fighter builds I was referring to do. So your point about 'hitting more often' was meaningless.

    Holy cow. Another COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of your self-adored elitism.
    There are a few ways to respond to what I wrote. You managed to use the only one that is completely meaningless.

    You could have mentioned that you thought that was fixed in Update 4. You could have tested it out in game. Instead you simply displayed you didn't even understand the issue by quoting the text of the spell as if I hadn't clearly indicated that the point was that it was a bug.

    Truthfully, I haven't tested it in a long time - and it didn't work the last time I tested it - but that's mainly because even if it did work now, it would be a terrible build decision for a non-Cleric/FvS to slave their dps to Divine Power clickies in this manner. Swapping in a piece of gear every ~40 seconds to activate a dispel-able buff so you can perform adequately is just the kind of design you're famous for - good on paper, terrible in game.

    Im done discussing this build with you. Sorry it doesn't meet your expectations. Good luck playing DDO.
    It's not that it "doesn't meet my expectations". It's that it is a build where you make choices that are not very efficient so that you can have a certain "flavor". There's nothing wrong with that - as long as you're not (as you lamentably are) trying to protest its a tuned endgame efficiency build.

  14. #34
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    deleted for bytchyness
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 04-14-2010 at 04:58 PM.
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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuney View Post
    Better effienecy which is better if you are main healing and thus go for Empower healing.

    Or will you just spot healing and want your heals to hit for as much as possable and not carring about SP to HP effeiency then Maxmize will be for you.

    If I was standing on the front lines (Assuming always making the cast) I would want my spell to land for as much as possable so I'd live as well to keep on healing for as long as my SP lasted.
    Precisely. Well said.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-14-2010 at 04:23 PM.


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  16. #36

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    Quick chat about Quicken.

    Got an email just now about possibly taking quicken. Quicken can be squeezed into the build for added healing speed. Not planning on going this route however at this time, since my main game is clearly DPS. I dont want to give up any DPS feats. I have seen some give up extend, but I'm not feelin' that.

    DPS/Buff/Healing/Crowd Control/Cure/Res. Bards can do A LOT. The trick is to train wisely. Take the feats and enhancements that will strengthen the things you are going to do the most. Details should be gone over "with a fine tooth comb" to ensure your bard does not spread too thin. Customize & Synergise. Customize to your playstyle. Then make sure there's synergy between weapons/feats/enhancements/skills/play style so that the build stands up on its own two feet. Thats how you build a bard, in my book...


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Everytime I see your name associated with a thread, I know there will be some negativity, criticisms, and arguments...

    'Flavour Build' is kind of derogatory towards a build that is clearly not a 'Flavour Build'.

    BE POSITIVE MAN
    You'll notice that I'm never the one who instigates such insult-throwing, nor do I normally respond to all the various attacks launched at me.

    And I'm not sure why you view "flavor build" as an insult. A primarily Bard Warchanter build using two-handed weapons and the Human race is weaker in the standard categories such as dps and durability than other options that could be taken. These weaknesses are either taken because the designer made a purposeful "flavor" decision not to use the most efficient possible options or because they lack the knowledge to make better choices. Seems to me that calling it a "flavor" build - a build made to be as efficient as possible within certain arbitrary constraints imposed by the designer rather than the game mechanics - is about as positive as I could be.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    You'll notice that I'm never the one who instigates such insult-throwing, nor do I normally respond to all the various attacks launched at me.

    And I'm not sure why you view "flavor build" as an insult. A primarily Bard Warchanter build using two-handed weapons and the Human race is weaker in the standard categories such as dps and durability than other options that could be taken. These weaknesses are either taken because the designer made a purposeful "flavor" decision not to use the most efficient possible options or because they lack the knowledge to make better choices. Seems to me that calling it a "flavor" build - a build made to be as efficient as possible within certain arbitrary constraints imposed by the designer rather than the game mechanics - is about as positive as I could be.
    I guess our definitions of 'flavour' differ slightly. For me, flavour is tending towards design choices that are made to fit a concept. For you, it seems to be about not maximising potential. That's cool.

    I agree with part of your definition: "because the designer made a purposeful "flavor" decision not to use the most efficient possible options ".

    But I believe this is where it becomes a bit derogatory: "because they lack the knowledge to make better choices'. For me, that is not the essence of a flavour build; a flavour build is very aware of the choices it makes.

    Anyway, sorry about my stupid post - I had to get up a little early this morning... and it was unnecessary.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    I guess our definitions of 'flavour' differ slightly. For me, flavour is tending towards design choices that are made to fit a concept. For you, it seems to be about not maximising potential. That's cool.

    I agree with part of your definition: "because the designer made a purposeful "flavor" decision not to use the most efficient possible options ".

    But I believe this is where it becomes a bit derogatory: "because they lack the knowledge to make better choices'. For me, that is not the essence of a flavour build; a flavour build is very aware of the choices it makes.

    Anyway, sorry about my stupid post - I had to get up a little early this morning... and it was unnecessary.
    I think you misread that sentence. I was explaining that "flavor build" refers to a build where the designer made intentional choices, knowing that they weren't necessarily the most optimal - as opposed to simply making foolish choices.

  20. #40

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    Thank you to all who have stayed focused to the OP. I'll be updating this as I continue to level.

    To be discussed will be build options of course, effective gear layout for early, mid and end game, game mechanics, most efficient/effective strategies, and playstyle likes/dislikes.

    As always with my build threads, I'd like to make this a discussion of sound bard (with focus on warchanter) strategies that will help the bard community in whole. It's not all about my build, although I will definitely take good advice, especially if its backed by facts and personal experience, not just because someone wants to preach of their limited definition of "optimal." I do NOT choose to bash any type of bard. I do not care about your opinion that warchanter is better than spellsinger or virtuoso is gimp.

    I think all bards are great and all bards can be played to perfection, if just a little time and knowledge is applied along the way.

    /realitycheck on Criticisms are fine, but any purposeful flaming makes it harder for those who'd actually like to learn, and those persons will be reported. /realitycheck off
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 04-15-2010 at 01:24 PM.


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