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  1. #1
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    Post PnP style crafting

    (N.B. I just lost this post to the old "internet not knowing what the browser session is doing" glitch... so besides being annoyed, I cannot guarantee this version will be as good as the first. I must remember to make a copy before submitting from now on... on to the show...)

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236432
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239971

    I’m not sure whether this belongs under Crafting, PnP, or Suggestions, but we’ll see if the mods move it…

    The above threads were instrumental in inspiring me start my own thread on the matter of expanding the crafting ability in this game. I have read/skimmed a number of threads now to see what has been said but by no means was it comprehensive research. I apologize if my ideas are redundant. But before I get into it I do realize that a large contingent might see this as something that if deemed a Good Idea (tm) would be relegated behind bug fixes, class balancing, new content, etc. There may be something to that, but I think that my idea would be low impact enough to slip in at whatever point.

    It strikes me that this game has done a decent job of being true to PnP 3.5 rules as far as can be desired in an MMO setting. A game of sit down PnP D&D 3.5 it is not, nor should it be expected to be. However, as this game seems to have tried hard to stick with the core 3.5 rules for what it could, it does seem lacking in the crafting department. (I would speak to its regards for the Ebberon setting, but alas I've never played that setting in PnP.)

    As many have said before me, probably also coming from a PnP background, the crafting in this game should be expanded, and expanded in such a way as to have some resemblance to the 3.5 crafting rules from which the game was based. But if I'm getting the general vibe from the community correctly, there are a few points to which this "new" system must adhere if it will at all be successful.

    1) It ought to be grounded in 3.5 crafting rules. This means weapons are fully customizable within a given set of limits.

    2) It should not require a huge shift in development resources. The "new" system should utilize current conventions already in the game.

    3) It should not compete with nor unbalance current high-end, "end game" items such as Shroud crafts and certain Named. Indeed, it should not unbalance anything, but particularly not those.

    I think there are probably other points that could be made here, but I think that will serve as a good platform for where I want to go with this. Now, onto some main points around which my ideas impinge.

    1) I like the current "Eldritch Device" style of crafting. Maybe it is just the D2 in me, but I think the mechanic works well in the video game setting. In my mind, it helps to balance the disparity between PnP classes who are able to create for themselves magic items, and those classes that can only craft mundane items. I do not think that classes ought to have "inherent" crafting ability as in PnP for a few reasons but especially because the Eldritch Device type things in essence *are* the inherent crafting ability. Furthermore, in a PnP game, unless it is very RP intensive, most crafting is simply done by a "pocket crafter" and not by PCs. Either that or magic items are simply bought (in my experience at least).

    2) I like the collectibles "thing". While some of the grinds in this game may or may not need adjustment in one way or another, much of video gaming comes down to working at something or a "grind" -- it's almost the nature of video games. Some turn out to be more fun for longer than others, but I don't think there's much escaping it; it's almost a necessary balancing mechanism. Regardless of the philosophy of the matter, I think current collectibles can be utilized toward the "new" crafting system.

    3) I understand the need for level requirements. In a closed economy and micromanaged system of a D&D game, the DM has many options to balance the accidental, randomly rolled artifact weapon at level two. Not so much recourse does an MMO engine have. As far as I know though, there are no level requirements for items in PnP.

    So with that in mind let's get down to the meat and potatoes (For the record this idea really only deals with weapons and armor -- I'd have to think about it a little bit more to include other items. In my example I focus on weapons.):

    0) The current system of randomly dropping only a single prefix and/or single suffix item will not be changed.
    1) Any randomly rolled item can be used as a basis for crafting as long as it meets the 3.5 requirement for doing so: it is of at least masterwork quality. A store-bought Masterwork item would be acceptable.
    2) All crafting would take place at the stone of change or similar ritual altar.
    3) Collectors would gain an additional role. Each collector would sell, for a certain price in addition to a certain amount of the collectibles they seek, crafting materials. For example (this does not portend to be game balanced but is for the sake of argument), the shroom collector down by the docs in the harbor (I forget her name) could sell the "+1 enhancement" upgrade for 3000g, 15 sweet whitecaps, 6 deadly feverblanches, and 2 pale creepers. (In PnP a +1 would simply be 2000g on top of a masterwork weapon, the price hike would serve to balance the power of customizability and also help not to break certain other means of obtaining magical enhancements like the vendors, questing, etc.) Giles Goodman could sell flame enchantment, Goldscuttle shock, etc. Some collectors might sell more than one if they were an upgradeable sort of enhancement ("plus" enhancements, flaming/burst, shattermantle/improved, etc.).
    4) Prefixes and suffixes would be broken out into tiers based on there plus enhancement equivalent. So, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Maiming, Keen, etc. would be in the +2 tier. (The reason these are considered +2 is because even though in themselves they only increase the total enhancement bonus by one, the lowest possible non-race-required weapon they could be on would be a total of +2.) All tiers would be priced accordingly. In PnP, to go from a +1 to +2 would be 6000g more; if we keep the 50% hike, that makes it 9000g plus whatever collectibles. (it doesn't have to be 50%, it's just for illustration purposes)
    5) Regular "plus" enhancements (+1, +2, +3, etc.) would have to build upon each other. To go from a +1 to a +4, you would have to purchase and upgrade to +2 and +3 before doing the +4. Similarly with other graded enhancements, flaming then flaming burst, shattermantle then improved shattermantle, etc.
    6) "Adaptor" crafting materials would be necessary for crafting above the "tier" of the enhancement you are crafting with. Let's say instead of making a flaming from a +1, you upgrade first to +2. Well, now you want to upgrade to flaming, but the cost of the flaming is still only a +2 upgrade cost. Getting a "+2 to +3 adaptor" would fill in the price gap. In PnP going from a +2 to a +3 is an additional 10,000g, so to continue our example you'd have to buy a Flaming craft material for 9000g plus a "+2 to +3 adaptor" for 15,000g to upgrade the +2 sword to a +2 flaming. Some collectors might sell these instead of a particular enhancement, although they would probably be grouped, like all +1 jumps (2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc.), all +2 jumps (2 to 4, 3 to 5, etc.), etc.
    7) The highest effective enhancement bonus of non-race-required items crafted in this way would remain at +10. The highest for race-required items would remain at +11. The Adaptors will be "smart" enough to handle this. I'm not sure what to do with the first jump to +2 for race-required items but it could just be that you get that for "free", meaning no extra Adaptor at that point. On the other hand there could simply be a
    8) All items crafted in this way will be bound to account at least, if not bound to character.
    9) Since bound, the level requirements can be lessened by maybe one or two levels -- maybe by one for +5-7 equivalent and by two for +8-10. This is somewhat of an optional point.
    10) No special metals will be craftable with this system. (Granted there is already the Eldritch Adamantine upgrade(s), but really, isn't that already kind of a joke?) This gives another reason for finding weapons of simply crafting them.
    11) Some enhancements, such as +5 equivalents (vorpal, etc.) may even not be available in this system making it important to find a base weapon with that enhancement. Maybe even +4's would fall under this (metalline, etc.). This point is somewhat optional though as they will still be quite an expensive purchase an could easily be given very rare collectibles for balancing purposes.
    12) Special enhancements, such as clickies (everbright being a *possible* exception), will simply not be considered for crafting (again, making it important to find certain weapons to craft onto).
    13) These crafting materials I propose (including Adaptors) could be bound to account/character.

    And there I think is a pretty balanced, and fairly easy to implement way to allow an item to grow with a character. Even one of these crafted items taken to a +10 (or +11 race-required) enhancement bonus will not be able to do everything needed by a toon, nor will it overshadow the awesome bonuses of green steel. I think this general outline might also be extended to other body slots with a little thought, if desired.

    Anyway, there it is, tear it up!

    --Raynor here...

  2. #2
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    I made a similiar post awhile ago.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236432

    Similiar in respect that it involved crafting, but used the PnP rules converted to video game style.

  3. #3
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    1) I am all for more crafting. I am a craftaholic and were I able to would craft my whole inventory full of all the toys I would enjoy most.

    2) This is not 3.5 DnD.

  4. #4
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Nothing really against the idea of crafting itself but the OP and others who might not see this, need to pull crafting/Profession skills away from Create Magical Item feats. They are not the same. Crafting/professions are more of a mudane sort of non-magical crafting, which has effects that mimic magic like material components or a special crafting process yet are not magic per se. Like mithral armor, Masterwork or Cold Iron weapons.

    Create Magical Item is a set of feats that mages can get as they level as a second choice instead of a meta-magic feat or spend other feat slots for extra Create Magical Item feats. Of course, any character that has certian "caster" levels within their build may use up a feat slot for one of them. Yet still must meet the minimum requirements for the caster level of the individual feat to be taken.

    Which leaves out pure barbarians, rogues and fighters in getting Create Magical Item feats. More than likely a reason why they have not added them from the rule books already, too many who have no caster levels to meet the requirements would be up in arms demanding feats that only casters are suppose to get. If a player wants caster feats, they should make a caster or add caster levels to their characters.
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    Smile Thanks for reading!

    Thanks for the replies! A few "quick" things...

    jerray1973 -- I'll have to read your post a full read later, but I think I skimmed enough of it to know what you were saying. I think that sticking too closely to the original PnP crafting, that is, only magic users, extra feats need to be taken, the craft skill or even spells which can replace the skill (like fabricate -- even that requires a skill check at times) are what can be left out in a MMO setting and can be replaced by simply gathering materials (collectibles or other ingredients) and using them at the Stone of Change or other Eldritch Devices. This makes crafting accessible to all. It can all for the range and customizability from PnP with a definate video game/MMO mechanism, and one that is already in place. But I will finish your thread and see if I need to revise this.

    Wizzly_Bear/Quanefel -- It may not be PnP 3.5, but it is still 3.5 in its fundementals rules and engine. It is still based on D&D 3.5's rule set. And it specifically utilizes a 3.5 campaign setting, Ebberon. That being said, I thought I had made it clear in my OP but let me reiterate: I understand that this is not a PnP game, nor should it be. However, one of the things that I think can *also* be brought over into this game from the originally PnP rules, and as easily as many other things that already have, is customizable crafting. "Customizable crafting" is what I mean by "PnP style". I think my solution allows for the freeness of PnP crafting *within* the current MMO engine with little modification to the collectibles/ingredients grinds we already know and "love". No one needs to be a "crafter" as far as the required skills, classes, feats, or spells are concerned as you would have to in PnP. Again, when I say it is PnP style, I mean that you can have full customizability like in PnP, not the flavor of actually taking a hammer ot the anvil while casting Burning Hands. Please check this again and let me know where I need to clear it up in my OP, I will do this gladly so as not to confuse any future readers.

    Quanefel -- I know the mechanics for 3.5 PnP crafting. I would not mix up the skills vs. the feats. I think the above answer demonstrates this. Still I am not sure where you got the idea that I was trying to bring these elements into the crafting solution I proposed -- I am not. Perhaps you confused jerray's with my own? These flavor pieces in 3.5 PnP were usually not used by PC's as I believe I mentioned. Instead, I propose that the Collectors/collectibles recieve a new role and act in place of the "buying 50 lbs. of raw iron". You give a set of collectibles and some cash to one vendor, he gives you the "Flaming" crafting material. You then go to the Stone of Change which acts in place of the "do you have prerequisite Craft Magic Weapon Feat? Good, now roll your skill check for an in-game month until you make your sword." The Stone of Change would simply do the crafting for you. Slap on your sword, slap on your crafting materials that you bought from the Collectors and *boom* +1 Flaming sword. Woot. Instantaneous, accessible to all, everything is sufficiently MMO-itizied.

    Edit: In PnP, the word "craft" has two meanings "creating" (mundane) and "enhancing" (magically). There is a difference between simply creating a mundane item (available to all classes) and "creating" a magic item which is just enhancing it magically (which does not require the skill check but has other requirements -- although you could create the mundane item you are enhancing as well). However, when I have used "create" or "craft" as my terminology, I am really only referring to the "enhancing" part. This may have lead to some of the confusion. Either way, I am neither advocating adding the PnP skills nor feats and instead propose an alternative for DDO using current DDO systems to get the customization available in PnP crafting.

    --Raynor here...
    Last edited by JimRaynor; 04-05-2010 at 09:29 AM. Reason: clarification

  6. #6
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimRaynor View Post
    Thanks for the replies! A few "quick" things...

    jerray1973 -- I'll have to read your post a full read later, but I think I skimmed enough of it to know what you were saying. I think that sticking too closely to the original PnP crafting, that is, only magic users, extra feats need to be taken, the craft skill or even spells which can replace the skill (like fabricate -- even that requires a skill check at times) are what can be left out in a MMO setting and can be replaced by simply gathering materials (collectibles or other ingredients) and using them at the Stone of Change or other Eldritch Devices. This makes crafting accessible to all. It can all for the range and customizability from PnP with a definate video game/MMO mechanism, and one that is already in place. But I will finish your thread and see if I need to revise this.

    Wizzly_Bear/Quanefel -- It may not be PnP 3.5, but it is still 3.5 in its fundementals rules and engine. It is still based on D&D 3.5's rule set. And it specifically utilizes a 3.5 campaign setting, Ebberon. That being said, I thought I had made it clear in my OP but let me reiterate: I understand that this is not a PnP game, nor should it be. However, one of the things that I think can *also* be brought over into this game from the originally PnP rules, and as easily as many other things that already have, is customizable crafting. "Customizable crafting" is what I mean by "PnP style". I think my solution allows for the freeness of PnP crafting *within* the current MMO engine with little modification to the collectibles/ingredients grinds we already know and "love". No one needs to be a "crafter" as far as the required skills, classes, feats, or spells are concerned as you would have to in PnP. Again, when I say it is PnP style, I mean that you can have full customizability like in PnP, not the flavor of actually taking a hammer ot the anvil while casting Burning Hands. Please check this again and let me know where I need to clear it up in my OP, I will do this gladly so as not to confuse any future readers.

    Quanefel -- I know the mechanics for 3.5 PnP crafting. I would not mix up the skills vs. the feats. I think the above answer demonstrates this. Still I am not sure where you got the idea that I was trying to bring these elements into the crafting solution I proposed -- I am not. Perhaps you confused jerray's with my own? These flavor pieces in 3.5 PnP were usually not used by PC's as I believe I mentioned. Instead, I propose that the Collectors/collectibles recieve a new role and act in place of the "buying 50 lbs. of raw iron". You give a set of collectibles and some cash to one vendor, he gives you the "Flaming" crafting material. You then go to the Stone of Change which acts in place of the "do you have prerequisite Craft Magic Weapon Feat? Good, now roll your skill check for an in-game month until you make your sword." The Stone of Change would simply do the crafting for you. Slap on your sword, slap on your crafting materials that you bought from the Collectors and *boom* +1 Flaming sword. Woot. Instantaneous, accessible to all, everything is sufficiently MMO-itizied.

    Edit: In PnP, the word "craft" has two meanings "creating" (mundane) and "enhancing" (magically). There is a difference between simply creating a mundane item (available to all classes) and "creating" a magic item which is just enhancing it magically (which does not require the skill check but has other requirements -- although you could create the mundane item you are enhancing as well). However, when I have used "create" or "craft" as my terminology, I am really only referring to the "enhancing" part. This may have lead to some of the confusion. Either way, I am neither advocating adding the PnP skills nor feats and instead propose an alternative for DDO using current DDO systems to get the customization available in PnP crafting.

    --Raynor here...
    No, you are mixing up mudane crafting skills with create magical item feats. Not only combining elements of each but also stripping those two things from the character to place those abilities into a "Eldritch Devices" usuage. Which actually if you read Eberron lore, even goes against the lore as well. Considering what a failure the "crafting" we have in game is now, making more use of it as a replacement for the actual P&P rules for the skills and feats is not helping in setting crafting back where it belongs, with the character.

    Yes, from your comments about it and a general understanding I have on such things from others I have discussed this topic it points to non-caster classes wanting the "create magical item" feats that are in the realm of the caster classes. With this idea of "disparity" between non-casters and casters who make use of the feats in question. It is not a disparity, it is the rules. I can imagine there are players who would like to have rogue abilities on all their charactes without 1 level of rogue or characters having the full set of feats per level as a fighter yet not take even 1 level of fighter to be able to possess that. With this desire to readjust the caster feats as a one way effort since I doubt all class abilities or feats will be opened up to all that giving everyone caster only feats are wanted to be done.

    Although I do understand Turbine will keep going on an expanding their idea of "crafting", regardless of anyone's wishes for it to be on our characters with feats or skills. The Stone of Change crafting is easier, cheaper and is probably the only crafting we will ever get. I also know that I am not the only one who thinks it is currently broke as it is now, asking them to make more use of a broken system does nothing really positive for anyone who does want to craft.

    Finally, people should read up on the Ebberon lore that involves the Stone of Change type "crafting" alters. They were never meant to replace crafting or create magical item, they were designed to compliment those skills, professions and feats. Not replace them. They are highly guarded and generally in the employ of powerful NPC's or powerful empires, not laying about in large numbers like in DDO. Not that any of that will change what Turbine does, sadly.
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    Lightbulb Ahh...!

    Quanefel -- I think I see where you are coming from now, and I believe I mistook that from your first post. Which of the following statements would you say you agreed with?

    a) I like the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting.
    b) I think the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting can be brought into DDO.
    c) I think that Turbine's translation of crafting into DDO is flawed.
    d) I do not think that crafting needs to be like a Horodric Cube.
    e) I think that DDO's crafting is already too much like a Horodric cube and, if expanded upon, should be done so in a manner closer to the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting.
    f) I think that being an offshoot of D&D, DDO ought to try to keep as far from the typical MMO style as possible.

    I am curious to know exactly where you stand on this subject as I think I've only gotten a hint of it.

    I did combine mundane crafting and magical item creation in my example, and I deliberately chose to leave it that way on purpose even though I had ample time to edit it before your reply; however, I believe my "edit" comments did sufficiently demonstrate that I know the difference. I do choose to combine the two when discussing this subject because I agree with Turbine's estimation that neither the skill nor the feat(s) in their full PnP glory have much place in the MMO setting. I agree with Turbine's combination and simplification of these with the Stone of Change as you may have gathered. Perhaps the craft skill, magic item creation, and the Stone of Change can all be used well in an MMO with their "true to the book" definitions, and perhaps not -- I think the latter. You are free to disagree with that, but that does not mean I am mixing them up.

    Would you be so opposed to the idea if I had not used the "Eldritch Devices" in my example but instead some NPC Wizard or Artificer? For this we could even use some of the trainers; give them the powers to create magical items so that it "stays with the class". To me, it really doesn't matter much who or what is the "pocket crafter". Let me show you what I mean (and demonstrate to you at the same time that I understand what it takes to "craft" a magical item):

    To buy a +1 Flaming Dagger, you would spend 8302g. To have a buddy (Druid lvl 3 for lowest spell requirement: flame blade) craft a +1 Flaming Dagger (from a +1 Dagger) he would have to spend six days [not adventuring], 3000g in raw materials, 240 XP (@5g per XP = 1200g reimbursement), and 60g for the level 2 spell (caster level 3 x 20g). You'd probably also owe some part of your adventuring booty for the 6 days of treasure and XP he missed. So maybe you save a little cash in the end and get your very own custom created... generic +1 flaming dagger. Now this may rock your buddy's world and he actually doesn't charge that much for missing out on the "fun stuff", maybe crafting is the whole reason your buddy plays D&D. That's great. To each his own. But for other party compositions, a DM may let you set up a business relationship with an NPC who will do your crafting for you, or as I call it in my OP, a "pocket crafter". You might pay a monthly retainer fee or such for cheaply (relatively) crafted custom weapons. Many DM's do such things. So what have we now done? Essential we've taken the feat out of the class and made it accessible to the whole party -- and all within the PnP framework (and role playing it too!). It is not completely or officially taken away from the character, no... your buddy is still crafting to his hearts content as a PC. But all the custom stuff you want is available for cheap from the "pocket crafter" you've hired. Again, you may disagree about ever wanting to do this as a DM and may decide to quit if a DM ever allowed it in a game you were playing, but it is an available and utilized practice in 3.5 PnP.

    All I'm saying is to extend the role of "pocket crafter" onto the Stone of Change since it has already been done up to a point. All I'm looking to do with my suggestion is to round out "magical item creation" to the level of flexibility for which the 3.5 rules allow. The flavor really does not make much difference. You may love the PnP flavor of crafting and/or magic item creation and that's fine, I like it in PnP myself. But I do not think that a huge deal has to be made over something so minor that was lost in translation into the MMO platform. So the Stone of Change is the new NPC Artificer. Is that really too much to swallow? In the end, the Stone of Change assuming the role of "pocket crafter" and giving us the full range of crafting options are really are two separate issues anyway. As long as we get the latter I'm fine with not having to do it at an Eldritch Device. That being said, I still like my idea of its usage in the system I've outlined.

    [Do realize that my system is trying to strike a balance between "things ought to be more like 3.5 PnP" and "this is an MMO not PnP" which are the two camps that I would need to win over before Turbine... you're right, finishing that sentence is probably just wishful thinking anyway... ;-)]

    Edit: where can I read up on Ebberon lore (as you suggest) besides having to buy the book (and not download any illegal pdfs)?

    --Raynor here...
    Last edited by JimRaynor; 04-06-2010 at 02:46 AM. Reason: asking for reference

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    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimRaynor View Post
    Quanefel -- I think I see where you are coming from now, and I believe I mistook that from your first post. Which of the following statements would you say you agreed with?

    a) I like the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting.
    b) I think the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting can be brought into DDO.
    c) I think that Turbine's translation of crafting into DDO is flawed.
    d) I do not think that crafting needs to be like a Horodric Cube.
    e) I think that DDO's crafting is already too much like a Horodric cube and, if expanded upon, should be done so in a manner closer to the D&D 3.5 PnP rules for crafting.
    f) I think that being an offshoot of D&D, DDO ought to try to keep as far from the typical MMO style as possible.

    I am curious to know exactly where you stand on this subject as I think I've only gotten a hint of it.

    I did combine mundane crafting and magical item creation in my example, and I deliberately chose to leave it that way on purpose even though I had ample time to edit it before your reply; however, I believe my "edit" comments did sufficiently demonstrate that I know the difference. I do choose to combine the two when discussing this subject because I agree with Turbine's estimation that neither the skill nor the feat(s) in their full PnP glory have much place in the MMO setting. I agree with Turbine's combination and simplification of these with the Stone of Change as you may have gathered. Perhaps the craft skill, magic item creation, and the Stone of Change can all be used well in an MMO with their "true to the book" definitions, and perhaps not -- I think the latter. You are free to disagree with that, but that does not mean I am mixing them up.

    Would you be so opposed to the idea if I had not used the "Eldritch Devices" in my example but instead some NPC Wizard or Artificer? For this we could even use some of the trainers; give them the powers to create magical items so that it "stays with the class". To me, it really doesn't matter much who or what is the "pocket crafter". Let me show you what I mean (and demonstrate to you at the same time that I understand what it takes to "craft" a magical item):

    To buy a +1 Flaming Dagger, you would spend 8302g. To have a buddy (Druid lvl 3 for lowest spell requirement: flame blade) craft a +1 Flaming Dagger (from a +1 Dagger) he would have to spend six days [not adventuring], 3000g in raw materials, 240 XP (@5g per XP = 1200g reimbursement), and 60g for the level 2 spell (caster level 3 x 20g). You'd probably also owe some part of your adventuring booty for the 6 days of treasure and XP he missed. So maybe you save a little cash in the end and get your very own custom created... generic +1 flaming dagger. Now this may rock your buddy's world and he actually doesn't charge that much for missing out on the "fun stuff", maybe crafting is the whole reason your buddy plays D&D. That's great. To each his own. But for other party compositions, a DM may let you set up a business relationship with an NPC who will do your crafting for you, or as I call it in my OP, a "pocket crafter". You might pay a monthly retainer fee or such for cheaply (relatively) crafted custom weapons. Many DM's do such things. So what have we now done? Essential we've taken the feat out of the class and made it accessible to the whole party -- and all within the PnP framework (and role playing it too!). It is not completely or officially taken away from the character, no... your buddy is still crafting to his hearts content as a PC. But all the custom stuff you want is available for cheap from the "pocket crafter" you've hired. Again, you may disagree about ever wanting to do this as a DM and may decide to quit if a DM ever allowed it in a game you were playing, but it is an available and utilized practice in 3.5 PnP.

    All I'm saying is to extend the role of "pocket crafter" onto the Stone of Change since it has already been done up to a point. All I'm looking to do with my suggestion is to round out "magical item creation" to the level of flexibility for which the 3.5 rules allow. The flavor really does not make much difference. You may love the PnP flavor of crafting and/or magic item creation and that's fine, I like it in PnP myself. But I do not think that a huge deal has to be made over something so minor that was lost in translation into the MMO platform. So the Stone of Change is the new NPC Artificer. Is that really too much to swallow? In the end, the Stone of Change assuming the role of "pocket crafter" and giving us the full range of crafting options are really are two separate issues anyway. As long as we get the latter I'm fine with not having to do it at an Eldritch Device. That being said, I still like my idea of its usage in the system I've outlined.

    [Do realize that my system is trying to strike a balance between "things ought to be more like 3.5 PnP" and "this is an MMO not PnP" which are the two camps that I would need to win over before Turbine... you're right, finishing that sentence is probably just wishful thinking anyway... ;-)]

    Edit: where can I read up on Ebberon lore (as you suggest) besides having to buy the book (and not download any illegal pdfs)?

    --Raynor here...
    You can combine then if you want but they still are not the same. One is a skill, the other is feats. Nor do they even function the same either. Although they do in a way work off one another, you have to have a masterwork item made with the crafting skill to be used a base for the item to be created using the Create Magical Item feat.

    I understand what you are saying about Turbine not being able to make the skills and feats for crafting be in their full glory per D&D rules, nor has anyone suggested that. Nothing they have added or will add to the game from the P&P rules will ever be "at their full glory". Adding things based off the rules but understanding the limits of coding should not suggest that something like D&D crafting has to be removed from players altogther for no real reason.

    Many MMO's make use of a crafting system including LOTRO, another Turbine game so I do not see where you got the idea that it does not have a place in an MMO. In fact, their crafting system in LOTRO is close to P&P rules at least how it could be coded into DDO.

    I would not be opposed to an NPC to help out some with crafting for those who wish not to get into a crafting skill/feat based system but it would not be nearly on par with a player who possesses the skills or feats for it. We already have NPC's within game making and using those feats or skills yet players have no access to them for our own use on our character sheets. I do not mind the crafting altars per se but I sure don't want them completely replacing all crafting skills or feats that we should be able to use in the first place. An addition to some crafting, sure. But to replace those abilities outright, I can not pretend I would be happy with that.

    Again, why should all those NPC's be able to craft anything we want when we should be able to as well? Where is all that crafted loot we find in chests are coming from? Someone had to original craft those things so why can't that someone, be us players?

    How exactly is taking the create magical item feat that is restricted to any caster class of a certian level to be given to ALL classes be within the "framework" of P&P? Seems more of an attempt to hand out class restrictive feats to hand out to classes who normally should not be able to possess the feat without caster level. It only remains in the framework to those who want the rules tossed in the trash to make non-casters have feats they should not have. I imagine have these or any class restrictive feat, skill or ability to be freely take by anyone, regardless of class, or other minimum requirements. So yes, it would mean the crafting feats or skills are taken away from characters who would normally be able to take them. Having an NPC craft for a player is not that player "crafting to his heart's content", an NPC is doing the actual crafting or an altar is doing it for them, not that player.

    Once pulled apart from one another, mudane crafting vs create magical item feats can be seen for what they are. Combining them as one and the same while stripping them of any requirement or removing them from the character itself is not really about creating some type of flexiablity to stay within P&P, it is to completely remove it to replace it for a generic, non-class or level restrictive free for all "crafting" that does not resemble D&D rules that are clearly spelled out. While it is true this is not P&P, it still is based off D&D rules despite the best efforts of some to toss the rules to the side in many cases. While I do not blame a non-caster playing player wishing to use caster feats freely, that is not really fair to casters who can not make use of any melee class feats or abilities without any restrictions. If I want as much feats like fighters possess, I must met the requirements for it. If I want to make use of level 9 cleric spells, I must met the requirements for it. You get the picture.

    I have a thread discussing my ideas on how it would look, to a degree within DDO that both players and the dev's would be happy with. I will provide the link if a bit once I find it again. You might like it. Here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180944
    Last edited by Quanefel; 04-06-2010 at 05:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    You can combine then if you want but they still are not the same. One is a skill, the other is feats. Nor do they even function the same either. Although they do in a way work off one another, you have to have a masterwork item made with the crafting skill to be used a base for the item to be created using the Create Magical Item feat.

    Again you choose to reiterate this point, do I really have to go so far as to quote from d20srd/dandwiki/PH and lay out an example for you to demonstrate that I know the difference between the two? Yes, Crafting (skill) is for pots, pans, and masterwork swords. If you are REALLY good at it you can make a little bit more than a lame amount of money for the time spent. Crafting (feat) is for making +2 Chef's Tools of Creating-Infinite-Really-Yummy-Food-In-A-Dungeon and +5 Vorpal swords (no roll required)... and can make you quite a bit more money comparatively. Just because it's "the rules" does not make it *not* a disparity. It is much like the oft grieved disparity between melee and caster at the higher levels.

    I understand what you are saying about Turbine not being able to make the skills and feats for crafting be in their full glory per D&D rules, nor has anyone suggested that. Nothing they have added or will add to the game from the P&P rules will ever be "at their full glory". Adding things based off the rules but understanding the limits of coding should not suggest that something like D&D crafting has to be removed from players altogther for no real reason.

    Many MMO's make use of a crafting system including LOTRO, another Turbine game so I do not see where you got the idea that it does not have a place in an MMO. In fact, their crafting system in LOTRO is close to P&P rules at least how it could be coded into DDO.

    Let me rephrase, I do not see crafting as a primary activity in an MMO. I believe I will flesh that out for you further down. However, I would hazard a guess that there is a fairly large camp both from MMO players in general and even DDO players in particular (vets and non-vets alike) who might replace the "not a primary activity" with "have no place at all". These are not my sentiments, but I did keep them in mind when inventing my system.

    I would not be opposed to an NPC to help out some with crafting for those who wish not to get into a crafting skill/feat based system but it would not be nearly on par with a player who possesses the skills or feats for it. We already have NPC's within game making and using those feats or skills yet players have no access to them for our own use on our character sheets. I do not mind the crafting altars per se but I sure don't want them completely replacing all crafting skills or feats that we should be able to use in the first place. An addition to some crafting, sure. But to replace those abilities outright, I can not pretend I would be happy with that.

    Again, why should all those NPC's be able to craft anything we want when we should be able to as well? Where is all that crafted loot we find in chests are coming from? Someone had to original craft those things so why can't that someone, be us players?

    This is where role playing and imagination come into play. Those NPC's should be able to craft all those things we should be able to craft because the rules say so. You may add PC class levels to an NPC. Beyond that, the NPC or NPCs in question were all at one time great adventurers. Some of which are lvl 20 or even epic lvl wizards. Some of which have taken many of the Magic Item Creation feats. A few of which took the Leadership feat and command a vast network of Magic Item Creation sweatshops across many lands. One of which happens to be settled in Stormreach where his largest sweatshop happens to be. Is a melee character going to care very much whether it is you or he that sells the sword with the exactly desired specifications? I would guess only if the price is not right. In fact, to answer your second question, my guess is that *mostly* NPCs made all the loot you found (through the mind of the DM). To answer your third question you may be able to contribute to that pool, but the mind of the DM (or in DDO the random number generator) will always be able to out produce you. Think of it as being made from past PCs if you will, it's your imagination.

    How exactly is taking the create magical item feat that is restricted to any caster class of a certian level to be given to ALL classes be within the "framework" of P&P?

    No one is saying that the Create Magical Item feats should be "given" to all classes per se. It simply *is* in the framework to allow all characters, regardless of class, access to other characters of a class who does have those feats. The "framework" being Role Playing (that's imagination) and the Rules that help balance that role playing. There is no rule that prohibits a DM from setting up a pocket crafter for a party. There is no rule which prohibits a DM from outright selling of whatever to a party. Sure there are suggestions and guidelines, but in the end the DM is really free to do whatever. The DM imagines up a lvl 20 Wizard who specializes in crafting, has retired from adventuring, and enjoys outfitting aspiring adventurers with whatever they need for little more than cost. None of the PC's care to craft. Boom there you go, that all falls within the Role Playing and the Rules, which are the "framework" of PnP. That can be translated quite well and easily into current DDO. Full PnP crafting and Magical Item Creation, not as much.

    Seems more of an attempt to hand out class restrictive feats to hand out to classes who normally should not be able to possess the feat without caster level.

    Yes, it quite certainly is pragmatic. I believe that is what you mean. I'm sorry that bothers you.

    It only remains in the framework to those who want the rules tossed in the trash to make non-casters have feats they should not have.

    See, you are really turning this into a "the way I want [everyone] to play D&D" kind of argument, and quite judgmentally at that. While there are certainly ways I prefer to play the game, D&D 3.5 is quite an open system and I try not to dictate to others the way they ought to play it. I am not telling you that you ought not enjoy crafting mundane stuff or even magical items as a primary activity. However, as an attempt at a diplomatic solution (between those of the "more 3.5 plz" and "this is not 3.5" camps) and one that would not require quite as much development time or energy, I think that getting customizable magic items into the game should come before getting Craft/Profession skills or Create Magic Item feats on characters.

    I imagine have these or any class restrictive feat, skill or ability to be freely take by anyone, regardless of class, or other minimum requirements. So yes, it would mean the crafting feats or skills are taken away from characters who would normally be able to take them. Having an NPC craft for a player is not that player "crafting to his heart's content", an NPC is doing the actual crafting or an altar is doing it for them, not that player.

    I did not say an NPC crafting for a player is the same as a player "crafting to his heart's content" -- you took that quote from a sentence that specifically talks about being able to craft with class specific skills/feats *in spite of* having a pocket crafter in the game. The net effect is the same for the character buying the item since D&D is primarily an adventuring and fighting and looting game (this is where most of the mechanics lie) and not a sitting around making stuff game (where very little mechanics lie). One may choose to make a character or DM a game that focuses on crafting (and not even making any house rules about it) and have fun doing that, but I think the majority of PnP and MMO players do not focus on the crafting aspects.

    Believe me, I've done my share in PnP to make [mundane] crafting a viable (and fun) part of the game, but the core rules simply leave much to be desired. I do not see an MMO setting making it that much more successful short of a Horodric Cube like method. Or did you forget the hours/days of crafting time your character requires to make stuff according to the rules? Or are you going to give instantaneous results? Or even passive crafting time where you character mashes metal or imbues with a spell all while foraging for more materials, selling stuff at auction, questing, and all the other stuff that there is to do? Crafting time is part of the rules you know.


    Once pulled apart from one another, mudane crafting vs create magical item feats can be seen for what they are. Combining them as one and the same while stripping them of any requirement or removing them from the character itself is not really about creating some type of flexiablity to stay within P&P, it is to completely remove it to replace it for a generic, non-class or level restrictive free for all "crafting" that does not resemble D&D rules that are clearly spelled out.

    What is not clearly spelled out is that these skills or feats ought to be restricted to PCs. Your argument is flawed as its basis is flavor and not mechanics. There is no accounting for taste. I cannot make you like my idea of how to utilize the mechanics, nor can you make me like yours. However, as you have suggested above, it is possible to have both scenarios open in DDO, an NPC to craft for people who do not want to join in the throng, and class based mundane/magical crafting for people who do. My point is that is faster and easier to put the NPC in first and add the class based stuff later. I think it would make more people happier sooner. And I gather that it might make your camp happier if some extra provisions were made to help make PC crafting more desirable such as making the NPC based stuff bound, but PC based not. No aesthetic customization at NPC, yes for PC. Maybe some affixes are only available to PCs like Clicky stuff. Etc. If some part of custom crafting is already in the game, it gives more weight to your case to get even more facets of it in.

    While it is true this is not P&P, it still is based off D&D rules despite the best efforts of some to toss the rules to the side in many cases. While I do not blame a non-caster playing player wishing to use caster feats freely, that is not really fair to casters who can not make use of any melee class feats or abilities without any restrictions.

    You really want to compare power word kill and wish to greater two weapon fighting and great cleave? No one is tossing out any rules. And I am not sure I understand where you get this "freely" from. No one is getting the inherent ability to create magical items that shouldn't nor is it giving away magical enhancement without being paid for (my system even makes it MORE expensive to get custom crafted magically items). Within the rules you say keep being tossed aside, it allows for a way of trading time for expense (a la mundane/magical crafting). At the DM's discretion, PC's may also forgo the time. Also at the DM's discretion is whether your contract with the pocket crafter is a flat rate over a period of time or a percentage based on cost of the items made. You could be getting customization at a steep price even in PnP. You could get them for cheap. You could get them at the same price as if you had bought from a regular merchant. The DM could deny you custom weapons. The DM could make you have to find everything and use what you find. The DM could even squash your attempt at creating stuff with your own skills by having little men from Mars come and destroy your progress if he wanted to. None of that is throwing the rules aside. It just depends on how the DM wants to use them in his game. Even if you pay the pocket crafter the cost value only of the materials, spell, and XP, you still have to wait for the stuff to be made, you just don't have to sacrifice a non-willing PC to do so. Is that *really* such a travesty?

    If I want as much feats like fighters possess, I must met the requirements for it. If I want to make use of level 9 cleric spells, I must met the requirements for it. You get the picture.

    I have a thread discussing my ideas on how it would look, to a degree within DDO that both players and the dev's would be happy with. I will provide the link if a bit once I find it again. You might like it. Here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180944

    I have read it entirely, TBH I laughed at one point when *you* mixed up the abilities of mundane and magical crafting (you even mix up craft and profession to a degree, or was that just pragmatic?)... I'm sure it was not on purpose. Some of your ideas from there have leaked into my responses here though I suppose I ought to return you the favor and help bump your thread's reply count. I am sorry if I sound harsh -- I do not intend to be harsh, but I do argue with vigor. Again, I do not begrudge you a fleshed out crafting system, even with mundane crafting (even though I would most likely not partake in it furhter than buying finished products). But I do understand that others out there really like to create stuff in game instead of questing/fighting/looting/etc. To each his own.
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    and once again... the 'titans' argue... in essay format nonetheless. =)

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    Default Coming from a completely different game.

    I've been playing DDO for about two months now. Though I think Turbine has done a fine job of converting 3.5 into what DDO is, I come from EvE Online which has a pretty advanced industry/market. I'm not going to say EvE is superior because the differences between instanced dungeon crawling that is driven by game content as it's released, as opposed to a sandbox style space/civilization simulator that pretty much leave events/content in the game in the hands of the players. It's just what I prefer,.. most of the time.

    In EvE I partook of most of different loosely defined activities you that I would not have been able to do without multiple characters including mining, manufacturing, freighting, diplomacy, espionage, soldier/merc, fleet commanding, scouting, blah, blah, blah... I really haven't been in the mood for EvE for a while now not because it's bad, but it's player driven content and that means a person has to manage people. I've been playing DDO because it's some fun and dungeon crawling with other people that requires organized teamwork on a smaller scale. No parties of 300+ in this game. That seems to me to be awesome and the games focus. I don't think that should change, but...

    As far as equipment goes, I hear a lot of people get disappointed with the absence of significant reward for quests. I don't believe most people are disappointed because the loot is of any value, equipment of level is the same value as any other equipment of the same level. Though it makes sense to me that most equipment adventurers would find lying around in chests would not be advanced as what they used to obtain it, I find that this often disappoints as well.

    Apart from making sense I believe it's good for game play for most equipment found by adventures to be below them, It forces players to play by skill, to pass otherwise good equipment below their level to their other toons which they might otherwise not play which forces them to be better team players in the future as they have a better understanding of roles and limitations of different characters. Players who understand each other and play well together have more fun together.

    Having said all that, The primary things about DDO I found disappointing was the absence of market and crafting, though I don't think it has to be or should be tackled like other MMOs, or 3.5 specifically...

    Obviously I thought about all this for a while. I've thought about it a while and I can attribute most of my disappointment with absence of control

    My idea is make crafting NPCs of two types, one that specializes in materials and another that specializes in magics, both types would handle the appropriate abilities attached to equipment in accordance to 3.5 rules. This allows the use of 3.5 crafting rules without taking the players focus of on adventuring (I.E. dedicating feat slots to crafting). Use the same rules as far as level restrictions and what abilities are able to occupy randomly generated equipment. This prevents this crafting system from breaking the game or otherwise making raid loot obsolete. Each vendor would have a timer per task/ability and a fee which raise exponentially (x2/x4/x8) with each ability/ability level added to a weapon. Magical abilities could use a certain number of specific collectibles (that's why some of those guys have been hoarding them...). Limitations could be placed on how many "tasks" one could have with a specific vendor at a time. Maybe even allow Wizzy McMagiccraft bind the item to the character or a specific race for a hefty fee, allowing the person to use the item at a lower level.

    The way I look at it is, even if crafting takes some time, money, and effort; players are going to have more fun actually playing DDO if they feel as though what they think their toon needs is coming, even if it's not in their hands yet. It isn't fun to not have any control or feel like a rat hitting a feeder bar for a food pellet or getting gouged in the Auction House. This kind of system will not eliminate farming for named and players will adventure together more diversely as opposed to the same old grinds if they know they can trade the random collectibles or even just pay the plat they make from the "Vendor Trash" from any available quest. But the mysterious drunken craftsman that seem to have made most everything in Eberron need some help.

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    Crafting in PnP is governed by 3 things, time, money and xp.

    Money - This is too easy of a resource for PnP style crafting, there is no PC around in PnP that has millions of plat just lying around.

    XP - This is too easy to come by as well, with the abilty to run quests multiple times you could almost never run out of XP.

    Time - Sure you could take one toon out for 6 days or more but that does not mean you cannot play one of your other dozen characters. In PnP you only are running one character (most of the time) and that character is involved in a continuous story, not so here, you choose which adventures to do and when.

    These 3 reasons alone dictate to me that they cannot have a PnP style crafting system in DDO.
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    Crafting is not heroic. Crafting is for the peons, the working class. If any sort of free-form crafting is introduced, I hope it comes in the form of a craftsman, whom we support and feed money/ingredients/whatever to, and whom will take some period of time to complete assigned tasks. These would be akin to Followers in the PnP realm.

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    Talking I'll try to be brief...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank_Zero View Post
    and once again... the 'titans' argue... in essay format nonetheless. =)
    Blank_Zero -- Thanks for the bump! :-)

    outopian -- I think in essence we agree, but I'm not sure where or if you are critiquing the methods I outline in the OP. Would you mind specifying please? The only thing I think I can see as directly different is the "specializes in materials" which I took to mean the non-magical type of crafting. I would not specifically disagree that this should be considered as an addition to the game; however, I would say that as far as development cycles go and as far as what would make the most difference to players in general, that just the magic crafting part ought to be considered first.

    Baahb3 -- Regardless of whether the DDO PC pays in XP, I do not see how your three reasons translate into your conclusion. Even if everyone started out with a million plat, that does not invalidate nor does it make useless the customization of gear. There are any number of ways one could balance a PnP style crafting system including, as I mentioned, BTA/BTC which are current game conventions. Please present an argument as to why these or other measures (marking up the price, including collectibles in the cost, etc.) are not good enough.

    rimble -- I would support this as I have stated in other responses. Do you, though, have a particular objection to utilizing the Eldritch Devices for this purpose being a current game convention?

    --Raynor here...

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    [QUOTE=JimRaynor;2890720

    outopian -- I think in essence we agree, but I'm not sure where or if you are critiquing the methods I outline in the OP. Would you mind specifying please? The only thing I think I can see as directly different is the "specializes in materials" which I took to mean the non-magical type of crafting. I would not specifically disagree that this should be considered as an addition to the game; however, I would say that as far as development cycles go and as far as what would make the most difference to players in general, that just the magic crafting part ought to be considered first.

    --Raynor here...[/QUOTE]

    I would say we do agree for the most part, though my point was not to agree or disagree with anyone. I was just stating my ideas what crafting could and should be from my perspective. I think there is a gaping hole in the game where crafting should be and it's obvious there are others who feel the same from a development perspective. DDO seems to me to be a game focused around adventuring and dungeon crawling so it seems to me that a system based off the random loot generation through vendor style NPCs would be the least disruptive way to do this.

    I'm not against any time or plat sinks that would be introduced because of this, I'm just concerned that whatever work would be required would be as involved as say, greensteel. I just don't think it should require so much focus and game time. An interface for two types of vendors could simply reference the same equipment abilities as random loot generation and attribute a cost in time/platinum/ingredients to them without being disruptive to raid rewards or taking away from the main focus of the game, which seems to me to be adventuring.

    Ultimately, the development decisions are Turbines to make so I don't expect anyone to hands down agree with what I think crafting should be, nor am I concerned if anyone thinks my opinion is something to flame about. It's just what I was thinking and I put it out there. I think that's better then complaining about what I don't like about greensteel crafting, which is present as it is and isn't going anywhere.

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    Cool Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by outopian View Post
    Ultimately, the development decisions are Turbines to make so I don't expect anyone to hands down agree with what I think crafting should be, nor am I concerned if anyone thinks my opinion is something to flame about. It's just what I was thinking and I put it out there. I think that's better then complaining about what I don't like about greensteel crafting, which is present as it is and isn't going anywhere.
    Precisely why I started this thread, though I had hoped it would generate a little more discussion.

    --Raynor here...

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