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  1. #21
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    Better then that.

    Go 1 Bard/1 Ranger/18 Fight

    That gives you +1 attack rolls, some of the little bard enhancements
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  2. #22
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    - You do not get Manyshot
    - You do not get Improve Presice Shot
    - You do not get the extra 10-12% from capstone....

    I'm sorry, there is a reason why the ranger symbol is a bow, and the fighter a sword.
    Your doing a serious disservice to new players reading this who do not know any better.

    1) Many shot is selectable as a feat.
    2) Improved Precise Shot is selectable as a feat.
    3) Fighters get tons of free feats. In fact, they get so many that making a ranged character with all the feats is very easy.
    4) Fighters are very good AA's. They get Kensai and enough feats for multiple weapon focus's and weapon specializations. Their dps output is very high. The main things a 18/2 split loses has nothing to do with ranged actually, it's evasion and the free twf feats.

    You do lose the capstone though so 1/3 right.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    - You do not get Manyshot
    - You do not get Improve Presice Shot
    - You do not get the extra 10-12% from capstone....

    I'm sorry, there is a reason why the ranger symbol is a bow, and the fighter a sword.
    Ummm you can pick up all the bow feats, you get the xtra dmg boosts, haste boost, and there is a little set called arcane archer from tod that gives 10% vs the so called 10-12% of the capstone, hmmmmmmmmm.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Sweyn's Avatar
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    Didn't realise you can select those feats, my bad... too early for me to be posting
    Last edited by Sweyn; 03-31-2010 at 09:48 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyadra View Post
    Better then that.

    Go 1 Bard/1 Ranger/18 Fight

    That gives you +1 attack rolls, some of the little bard enhancements
    Favored enemy against the evil outsider and the cure wands.
    Hmmm, I know some folks love them. But I am just not a fan of Kensai III AA. You might have a marginal increase in damage. But you give up:

    - Evasion
    - Great Self-Buffs
    - Wider Variety of FE and all the enhancements for more DPS/AC/Saves
    - More freedom with AP. Kensai III is one of the most expensive AP PRE's add in that you are going to take AA and all the Imbue Arrows, if you can even make it fit you are spread way too thin.

    The list goes on. You give up way too much IMO by not being a Ranger AA. I know it's my opinion but I am just not buying the small increase in damage worth the trade offs.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    Hmmm, I know some folks love them. But I am just not a fan of Kensai III AA. You might have a marginal increase in damage. But you give up:

    - Evasion
    - Great Self-Buffs
    - Wider Variety of FE and all the enhancements for more DPS/AC/Saves
    - More freedom with AP. Kensai III is one of the most expensive AP PRE's add in that you are going to take AA and all the Imbue Arrows, if you can even make it fit you are spread way too thin.

    The list goes on. You give up way too much IMO by not being a Ranger AA. I know it's my opinion but I am just not buying the small increase in damage worth the trade offs.

    But to be fair, you add in a lot of stuff.

    DPS increases, of course you mentioned, so I'll not go over them here.

    The biggest thing you give up is Evasion, but you have to weigh in the fact that you're getting full ranks in UMD this way too.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    Hmmm, I know some folks love them. But I am just not a fan of Kensai III AA. You might have a marginal increase in damage. But you give up:

    - Evasion
    - Great Self-Buffs
    - Wider Variety of FE and all the enhancements for more DPS/AC/Saves
    - More freedom with AP. Kensai III is one of the most expensive AP PRE's add in that you are going to take AA and all the Imbue Arrows, if you can even make it fit you are spread way too thin.

    The list goes on. You give up way too much IMO by not being a Ranger AA. I know it's my opinion but I am just not buying the small increase in damage worth the trade offs.
    to be honest, I wouldnt take the longbow kensai III, I would take the kopesh. The damage increase on the bow compared to the kopesh is too small, plus I could go toe to toe with a tempest ranger. self buffing by that point isn't an issue either. With this build I wouldnt even think of evasion since I will be in heavy armor, and while the ranger has the nicer capstone if I wanted to stay pure, the simple fact that I have a ton of feats to play with is so much better to me. The fighter build to me is just so much less limiting than the pure ranger is.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyadra View Post
    to be honest, I wouldnt take the longbow kensai III, I would take the kopesh. The damage increase on the bow compared to the kopesh is too small, plus I could go toe to toe with a tempest ranger. self buffing by that point isn't an issue either. With this build I wouldnt even think of evasion since I will be in heavy armor, and while the ranger has the nicer capstone if I wanted to stay pure, the simple fact that I have a ton of feats to play with is so much better to me. The fighter build to me is just so much less limiting than the pure ranger is.
    Ok now you have me confused. Mine was a rebuttle regarding an 18 ftr/1 rgr/ 1 bard (as you named) vs a 20 Rgr or even and 18 Rgr/1?/1?. If you are going to be a Tempest Rgr then the point is moot. I thought the discussion was over AA and the Ranger Capstone.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    But to be fair, you add in a lot of stuff.

    DPS increases, of course you mentioned, so I'll not go over them here.

    The biggest thing you give up is Evasion, but you have to weigh in the fact that you're getting full ranks in UMD this way too.
    I will not argue the uses of UMD, it rocks. But even an 18 Rgr/1 rog/1? can unlock max ranks in umd and keep all the ranger goodness. Heck, even without it unlocked maxed what would a ranger need umd for? To equip RR gear & possibly use a RD Scroll. With half ranks and boosted both can be achieved. I really feel you lose more then you would gain going a Kensai 3 AA vs a Ranger AA. The one thing that ticks in my mind is Haste Boost, but that in and of itself is not enough to sway my opinion. Take Haste boost which runs out vs a standing FE damage (which a Rgr will have 3-4 more then the build I am not a fan of) and the Rgr has more play to be usefull.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    Ok now you have me confused. Mine was a rebuttle regarding an 18 ftr/1 rgr/ 1 bard (as you named) vs a 20 Rgr or even and 18 Rgr/1?/1?. If you are going to be a Tempest Rgr then the point is moot. I thought the discussion was over AA and the Ranger Capstone.
    I was just pointing out how versitile the build is. The ranger 20 build is too limiting to me. 2WF fighter builds can now hold their own compared to a tempest ranger build. I can do just pretty good damage as an archer, and when I need to switch to melee I would outdo a pure ranger AA build. If I really wanted to, with all the feats, I could pull out a 2hander as well and do well.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyadra View Post
    I was just pointing out how versitile the build is. The ranger 20 build is too limiting to me. 2WF fighter builds can now hold their own compared to a tempest ranger build. I can do just pretty good damage as an archer, and when I need to switch to melee I would outdo a pure ranger AA build. If I really wanted to, with all the feats, I could pull out a 2hander as well and do well.
    Meh. You talk about versitilty but without Evasion, Self-buffs, etc, you are not as versitile as you may think. The way I perceive your build (as you have presented) is a heavy armor Ftr using a bow...le sigh. Point being 20 Rgr is all about versaltility, ranged as good as it can get (can be better but that's up to devs to fix) and melee on par with the best of em. So with all those ftr bonus feats you basically made what a ranger gets for free. /shrug Sounds like a lose to me. And don't get me wrong, I love outside the box thinking, but there comes a point where you might be trying to re-invent the wheel.
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  12. #32
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    there can be a lot of good AA builds, 18fighter/1/1, 18rng/1/1, 15rng/2/3, 20rng. However, different type of combination gives out quite different playstyle.

    Personally, I wont go an AA build for 18fight/1/1, even you have good UMD, you lose melee abilities and evasion, and quite a few good buffs (resists, prot, and most important FOM). Also, you need to spend quite a lot of feats to gain melee abilities (the TWF lines and some weapon specs) If you like to gain the maximized versatility, I will prefer 18rng/1rog/1mnk if you like AC build, or 15rng/3rog/2bab if you like kite build.

  13. #33

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    Positives of AA Ranger:

    1. Receive Two Weapon Fighting and most Bow related Feats for free.
    2. Ranger Capstone enhancement.
    3. Favored Enemies.
    4. DEX Class Enhancement (you'll be using level ups for STR, having more attack here isn't all that bad).
    5. Ram's Might (it's a buff, yeah, but you can't get it someplace else so I'm counting it separate)
    6. Healing
    7. Buffs
    8. TR gains you +2 ranged damage (if you're not sure if you'll be TRing or not)
    9. Evasion
    10. Could possibly switch into Deepwood if that PRE line somehow shapes up to be good.

    Positives of AA Fighter/Arcane:

    1. Kensai III (enhanced crit range, enhanced damage, power surge)
    2. STR class enhancements
    3. Fighter weapon feats and enhancements (makes up for missing DEX and buffs like Ram's Might)
    4. Tons of Feats (though you'll use most on ranged abilities)
    5. Health (easily hits higher health, but needs it because they have no evasion)
    6. Higher UMD possible (depending on your splash class/es)

    Over all there are more reasons to go with Ranger Arcane Archers in my opinion. However the Fighter Arcane Archer has higher potential DPS from the general numbers I've looked at. Their bonuses to damage are very similar to Favored Enemy bonuses plus they have more possible STR.

  14. #34
    Community Member Merrus's Avatar
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    Please pardon my ignorance, but ...

    How does one become an Arcane Archer, without 6 levels of Ranger? I don't see it as a feat, and I don't see it in the Fighter enhancements. Arcane Archer opens up all the "conjure arrow" abilities. Is this not one of the reasons to go Arcane Archer?

  15. #35
    Community Member Dexol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merrus View Post
    Please pardon my ignorance, but ...

    How does one become an Arcane Archer, without 6 levels of Ranger? I don't see it as a feat, and I don't see it in the Fighter enhancements. Arcane Archer opens up all the "conjure arrow" abilities. Is this not one of the reasons to go Arcane Archer?
    IIRC any elf can become and arcane archer so long as they have the correct feat prerequisits
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  16. #36
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xTethx View Post
    Ummm you can pick up all the bow feats, you get the xtra dmg boosts, haste boost, and there is a little set called arcane archer from tod that gives 10% vs the so called 10-12% of the capstone, hmmmmmmmmm.

    ToD stacks with capstone. I have capstone ranger with AA set... it stacks.

    Kensai III is where you will make up the difference.

    The ideal build looks to be the Elf Arcane Prodigy (sorc) TR with 20 lvls fighter. All bow feats are selectable and fighters get a ton of them. Kensai III longbow enhancement.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Visty's Avatar
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    also dont forget the barb18/bard1/fighter1 frenzied berserker AA
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post

    The ideal build looks to be the Elf Arcane Prodigy (sorc) TR with 20 lvls fighter. All bow feats are selectable and fighters get a ton of them. Kensai III longbow enhancement.
    And no Spell points for arrow imbues.

    A full 20 Ranger is VERY versatile, I've gotten too spoiled by my self-buffage that I might regret my next toon being mostly fighter.

    Do all the Kensai abilities make up for the +14 FE damage? Ranger 20s have 5 FEs and with feat-swappage you can have everything you need covered.

  19. #39
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    In my opinion, Arcane Archer and ranger in general needs an archery stance that works similar to monks wind stance, where they gain a haste bump to bow and arrow at levels 1, 6, 12, 18, and then the capstone would add haste as well, or some other benefit. This would make archery viable.

    Having to wait until level 20 to even get one bump to haste other than using a feat is lame, which screws up any multiclassing options.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-01-2010 at 12:32 PM.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grodon9999 View Post
    And no Spell points for arrow imbues.

    A full 20 Ranger is VERY versatile, I've gotten too spoiled by my self-buffage that I might regret my next toon being mostly fighter.

    Do all the Kensai abilities make up for the +14 FE damage? Ranger 20s have 5 FEs and with feat-swappage you can have everything you need covered.
    Weapon spec, Greater weapon spec, plus 2 weapon spec enhancements, plus 2 weapon focus feats, all 3 levels of Kensai, and HUGE bow strength would put a kensai archer right up there with a 20 ranger for damage dealt.

    I would still go ranger for the spell points, buffs, and the fact that if they do give any more love to archers, a ranger will receive that long before a pure fighter will.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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