You asked for one, I gave you possibly two. Your response was this.
That kind of imbalance is the kind that is embarrassing to have around in beta; if it's still around as your game turns four years old, it's either a conscious choice to not address it or incompetence as your competitors would have addressed it in a much shorter amount of time.
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I think someone at turbine is concerned that their archery system is fatally flawed. It sort of is when you consider how mobs react to extreme range shots and perching, and arrow dodging by players.
I think the weapon speed changes came after there was a few posts and at least one video demonstrations of twitching, and the gap that technique created in attacks per minute. The change to haste came around about the same time as well didn't it?
Yes, even EQ2 addresses player concerns about balance more quickly. Most of the others I can think of right now have significant amounts of pvp. Heck even EQ2 has moved in the consensual pvp direction in the latest expansion, this may play a part.
Occasionally playing on Cannith
Llyren, Kelda and some others.
However, one clear example is the +2 critical multiplier for Frenzied Berserker. That was changed pretty immediately after forum comments.
I think one issue in this conversation is that there's a lot of focus on whether the ranged build is competitive in terms of viability with the melee builds in normal groups. Unfortunately I think the answer is generally "whatever a ranged build can do, other melee builds can do nearly as well or better". And the number of times the variety of melee builds are better far outweigh the very niche focused times that a ranged build is competitive.
HOWEVER, this view puts no weight on play variation. One could probably mention 5 or 6 specific melee builds and cover the broad range of optimal group needs. But the strength of DDO is the variety it provides. Ranged play brings a completely different playstyle to the game, and that style brings a level of enjoyment to a group of players (albeit a small minority).
The question isn't whether it's equivalent, but rather is it viable? The OP is attempting to demonstrate it is a viable playstyle, showing examples where it can be equivalent or even in the rare specialized situation better. If one puts value on enjoying a different playstyle, then as long as a ranged build is viable to a group it should be accepted.
This of course is somewhat a sad state of affairs. One should not have to try to convince the community of the viability of ranged play. The playstyle should be BALANCED so it is inherently viable on its face and not require a thesis to try to plead that case. But alas, that seems to continue to be an issue with the development direction of the game.
This would all be so much easier if the devs would concede that ranged play is at a minimum PERCIEVED to not be viable. While one can present a case, such as the OP, that is still a very small minority that believe it is viable.
As to the OP, I agree it has value as a different playstyle, and that is important. But I dont think we are near a level where its viable in group play. If the group is heavily results focused, the ranged build will be denied in favor of the melee build.
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Most of the forum posts about "Ranged DPS sucks" is clearly aimed at convincing players not to use it.
Many in fact, seem to have the opinion that it should suck.
And others that even if it didn't suck, they would still not want to group with anyone who used it. (usually for the agro reasons.....but not always)
Add in the general trolls.
One thing I have always tried to do is find ways to use some tactic (or build) in this game to a useful degree.
Instead of saying don't use ranged for example, I've tried to tell people how to use it and get results out of it.
I do know that in your opinion it should be fixed. And I am convinced that your comments are usually aimed at hoping the devs will fix it.
But I don't see that in most other people's comments.
So they can deal out more damage from a distance (greater than spell range) than other chars can.
And do more damage while using special bows (like paralysers) than other chars can.
Any char can use a bow( ranged wep).
So any char could use it with the tactics mentioned.
A guy with Rapid shot will use it faster then one without.
A guy with Manyshot will do more damage.
A guy with Improved Precise Shot will be able to hit more monsters with it.
But an AA shoud be able to do do more damage with it than any other class/specialty.
Is that a reason to choose it over Tempest? Probably not.
Cause just about the only quest where ranged DPS is respeced is DQ2. And even then people have found ways to build melees to handle that quest just fine.
So no. From a min/max/elitist/I'm always goona melee because it is the best, and I like it point of view..... no. There is no reason to go AA.
Go back to your max Str/Con Khopesh build and keep on hating.
Just bring a good cleric.
That the devs are OK with ranged combat as it is, and that that OK’ness is based upon the fact that ranged characters stand little chance of taking damage is something that concerns me greatly and that is why I am asking, as this line of thinking (ranged characters biggest strength is not taking damage) is evidence of the devs encouraging “kiting”.
I also read in the quote above that you have a PM from a dev that says this but you are unwilling to share it. That is fine enough. If you can direct me to ANY post at all regarding this I would be grateful. I am not saying that such a post does not exist but only I am curious as to it’s wording.
If this is the reasoning behind ranged DPS being what it is... I shiver.
Last edited by Creeper; 03-08-2010 at 05:50 PM.
My style of play is mostly ranged. I am an AA Ranger. It seems that rangers are still fairly misunderstood on their capabilities.
For example: I boosted my jump and buff to about 53 (lvl 13 so far) and I can pull mobs for a group, jump onto something unreachable by the mobs (or most my party for that matter) and let the melee/casters go to work, while I provide my own attacking from the high ground.
Another example. Longbows are your friend. When far enough, you can take down mobs without them knowing where you are and never have to worry about pulling or aggro for that matter.
In the event that I end up having to kite while in a group (taken aggro) the rest of the party should show some decision making skills as well. how about:
1. "Let him kite that mob, he can take it down no prob. Let's focus on these right here." Instead of chasing it swinging weapons wildly and contributing absolutely nothing.
2. Speak to the ranger and tell him to get behind the tank and let the melees try to incapacitate him and take him down.
The main reason I see rangers continue to kite, and myself especially, is because the melee don't come up with any ideas, don't tell you to group behind them and let them get between you and the mob, and if we stop moving we get hit. Rangers are semi-squishy. Healers most of the time aren't prepared to heal the ranger in case he stops, nor do they put that idea forward. So the blame goes to miscommunication/misunderstanding.
Apart from all that, I enjoy being a 95% ranged attacker. Arcane Archer is incredibly fun. With the right tactics, using your surroundings against your enemies, kiting, etc. you can be a great asset to a group/raid. As long as everyone is on the right page.
i can say that an AA is very suitable for solo, as you can also kill from distance and kite if you like.
However, when come into group, there is 2 reason no many ppls like range attack:
(1) melee dps outcast range, in optimized build, about 100% (melee dps sits at 400 while range sits at 200). As long as the mobs dies quickly the quest can be done more quickly....
(2) If you have a decent healer, who cares to take damage? so not much point in not taking damage by using range.
As a side note, range attack has other limitation...
(1) you cant stun a mob with range attack, which is bad in high lv content (including epic) when the mobs has thousands of hp
(2) it is hard to get a vorpal range weapon (throwing axe...), and the slow attack speed makes it harder to vorpal a mob (even a caster dual wield 2 sickle can vorpal faster....)
* You will feel the pain of slow attack speed of bow when you trying to kill a mob can self heal....unless you have manyshoot on or get a really good luck in dies (consecutive 3-4 roll of 19/20 or lightning strike from Lightning 2 bow), you will draw out your vorpals....
(3) it has the worst critical range, which makes critical roll based weapon like smiting, banishing, stat damage hard to land....
Last edited by ForwardWu; 03-26-2010 at 05:30 AM.
Despite all the shortcoming i have mentioned for an AA, I found there is a few advantage about AA:
(1) When a quest can utilize the timing of manyshoot, an AA is really fun to play (e.g. POP, you can almost use your manyshoot between every 2 rooms if not 1 room)
(2) When a quest has a environment to line up the mobs...so you can out-dps a melee by using improved precise shot
(3) When a quest burst dps is important (e.g. VOD boss last 5% hp)
remember...in some sense AA has the best dps in the game....within 20secs of time
If you run with someone who has a good AA, this whole thread is pointless. If you need proof, hop over to Sarlona. There are plenty of players who have pretty well built and played AA's that can show you how.
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There is nothing like lining up all those elementals or rust monsters in Rainbow in the Dark... all in long skinny tunnel, and hitting 10 of them at a time with 4-5 arrows at a time with a Greater Elemental Bane bow, or Greater Abberation Bane bow...
It's like the joy of sneaking through Bastion...
Using different tactics successfully makes this GAME (it's a game, remember?) fun...
And definitely, an AA is better at soloing than most DPS melee builds
There are plenty of other times when Rangers can be incredibly handy for attack. You just have to think outside the box.
For example, some quests/areas have ranged mobs perched places hard to reach. By the time melee get to them they'd have taken a beating. ME on the other hand, I'd find some cover and keep jumping/shooting/taking cover, lather, rinse, repeat. I take nearly no damage, and can get the mob down timing my shots between his so I don't get hurt.
There is also the strafing behind cover and into LOS while shooting every time you leave cover, ALSO timing against the mobs ranged attacks in order to effectively take them down with little to no damage.
These are only a couple of many ways to effectively used ranged attacks.
The main complaint I see everywhere though is, DERP MELEE IS FASTER WHO CARES OF A LITTLE DAMAGE HEALERS CAN HEAL.
Well, if you can't play smart, patiently, and with tactics in order to not waste healers' SP or jeopardize a party wipe, I have no interest in partying with you.
There are people on these boards that will say, with a straight face (although not in these exact words), that you're a bad player if you use tactics.... Instead, they call out for max DPS as the best method for everything, even though max DPS requires no tactics at all...
The truth is, max DPS is almost always faster, but it definitely does not require any player skill.
As an example... Shroud Part 2 used to require tactics... pulling the devil away, maybe using intimidate to keep it from teleporting... Prepping the lieutenants. Good communication was key...
Now, it's just.... drag everything into the sw (maybe pull the ele into se) and kill it... No tactics required anymore
What's really ironic is if you drop some "uber" players from elite guilds into a PUG where that method does NOT work (because DPS is too low), those ubers have problems switching to team-work tactics. Instead, they usually just blame everyone else for being gimp (and complain loudly in voice-chat)
Your post gave me a good laugh. It's true, sadly, this game doesn't revolve around tactics. It'd be nice to make classes a bit more useful in different situations but since things are so easy in this game, everyone just wants to rush in, pull everything and destroy destroy destroy.
well, i have tons of fun playing my AA and i come in handy plenty of times in many different parties. To each his own I guess.
I love the pushback against ranged from the forum nitwits; they just don't want to have to adjust their tactics for anyone else.
Of course exploiters do more straight up DPS; the claim that it is substantial, however, is idiotic: The tempest bonus is 10%, plus whatever you get from feats (although I managed to squeeze in 2 improved critical feats and power attack), minus the difference in manyshot damage (which, if you assume that it is used every time it is available, balanced with only hitting one monster at a time, is about 4%), and it can't be very much at all.
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