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  1. #1
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    Default The Arcane Archer: Fact, Fiction, and Misinformation

    The purpose of this post is to talk at length about the Pure Ranger Arcane Archer, what it excels at, where its shortcomings are, and how it functions in a group.

    Soloing:
    Soloing is the strongest suit of an Arcane Archer. Area of Effect burst damage at long range with a high degree of safety, stealth, evasion, self heals, freedom of movement, and other factors contribute to making the Arcane Archer a very strong and capable solo character. My 20 Ranger Arcane Archer can solo Gianthold Tor on Normal with a Hireling (including dragons), frequently does Weapon Shipment runs in Shavarath, and can handle most quests completely solo, even quests in the Vale.

    Outdoor Zones:
    Outdoor areas seem made for the Arcane Archer. The ability to stealth from rare to rare in outdoor zones and take out red named mobs with ease comes easy for Arcane Archers. Kills can be made with a high degree of safety and often kills can be made with little or no incoming damage, provided the archer is smart and plans ahead. My Arcane Archer runs all 14 rares in Shavarath solo and gets ransack on the chests weekly, sometimes even pulling +2 Tomes and other nice items on relatively short runs (20-30 Minutes depending on how many rares are up). Contrary to popular belief this has much less to do with ranged exploiting (firing at mobs that can't see you) and much more to do with high ranged burst damage via manyshot and skill at kiting. Investing in the sprint line of enhancements allows for not only fast travel between spawns but allows for area of effect herding with little or no personal risk (sprinting around a large number of monsters, drawing them together with circle strafing, and burning them down with improved precise shot and manyshot).

    Kiting:
    Kiting in the wrong situation tends to aggravate other players, and 1 poorly played ranger often ruins it for the rest of us. Kiting is one thing when solo and another when in a group. When solo, kiting allows for high survivability while outputting moderate damage. When grouped, kiting allows a ranger to easily gather mobs together for Area of Effect Spells, scout ahead of a group and pull, and most importantly, serve as a ranged tank (more on this later)

    Area of Effect Damage:
    Arcane archers excel at using burst damage on multiple targets at once. With skill, an Arcane Archer can kill four or more targets at once, multiplying their damage by the number of targets. With practice and a good bow an Arcane Archer can even kill two bosses at once (such as in Gianthold Tor). The more targets an Arcane Archer has in front of them, the more damage they can do. With skill, an Arcane Archer can sprint through 20+ mobs and turn mid-kite to do amazing amounts of damage (one of my favorite places to do this is at the end of Running With The Devils, in the optional hallway that's full of Barbazu).

    Ranged Tanking:
    Arcane Archers excel at Ranged Tanking, but very few groups either allow them the opportunity or have ever used the strategy. An Arcane Archer can easily strafe tank the fire elemental boss in the Shroud in the Southeast corner with no support whatsoever and prep it at 5% for the boss kill order. An Arcane Archer can also employ the same strategy on the fire elemental boss again on the fight before Harry, sticking him in a corner and using evasion along with fire protection to keep him away from the group while they fill to max mana and buff to prep for the final Harry fight. An Arcane Archer can do this with no heals and without putting the group through the headache of boxing in another mob that may cleave or get free and go for the healers. In the same way an Arcane Archer can pull mobs off of squishies that get aggro in other missions and hold them in a circle strafe until the healers have a chance to catch up and the tank can regain aggro.

    Damage Contribution:
    There are two ways an Arcane Archer can contribute damage in a single target boss fight. The first is simply to switch to melee weapons, the other is to make sure that aggro is seated on the tank and then to begin firing outside of melee range. Melee allows for much higher single target damage (outside of manyshot), and ranged damage allows for a steady damage contribution without the need for heals. In addition, if the party begins to wipe, the Arcane Archer can pull aggro and kite the boss while healers equalize the group. In the case of a full party wipe, depending on skill, the Arcane Archer can kite the boss and burn it down, giving the group a chance of success where there would otherwise be failure.

    Crowd Control:
    In addition to kiting, snaring, crippling, circle strafing, and other tactics, the Arcane Archer can take an otherwise unmanageable fight and make it manageable. Fear Imbued Arrows with an Improved Cursespewing bow can greatly mitigate the incoming damage to a group, but should only be used in conjunction with paralyzing effects and at the direction of the party. Too many Arcane Archers will use these effects in situations that don't call for it, adding to the stigma that most ranged characters already get.

    Skill Level:
    The skill level curve of an Arcane Archer can be daunting. A good or exceptional Arcane Archer can be a big asset to a group, mitigating incoming damage, adding crowd control, offhealing, burst damaging groups of smaller enemies, and otherwise contributing highly, whereas an Arcane Archer with little skill or a solo mentality can frustrate a group, get themselves killed, and otherwise perpetuate many of the problems that groups in high level content have with archers in general.

    The Wizard/Sorcerer Comparison:
    A Wizard does not have the same sustained DPS as a Sorcerer over a longer series of fights because of resources. They are utility characters and can add a great deal to a party if played properly. Played improperly, they can wipe a group, pull aggro off of the tank if rushing damage, and can frustrate groups with their abilities (charm, grease, and other useful when used properly but irritating otherwise spells come to mind). In particular situations their ability to use their larger toolset becomes a party saver. Sound familiar? In my opinion, the Arcane Archer is the Wizard to the Tempest Ranger's Sorcerer. They have a wide set of tools to use but have less sustained damage potential in particular situations. There are situations you would rather have a Wizard in your party, and there are situations you would rather have a Sorcerer in your party.

    Things for Arcane Archers to Remember:
    1. If you pull aggro, run to the tank. Kiting mobs away from a group trying to kill them is an easy way to get booted from a group, just as charming mobs just before they die as a spellcaster or running off to aggro new groups when your group is still fighting an old one as a meleer are equally inefficient and frustrating. Grouping is about teamwork, not showboating and certainly not your own survival at the cost of everyone else's.

    2. There is a time and place for Improved Precise Shot. If you immediately start shooting at monsters the moment you see them and hit many of them with every arrow, what do you expect will happen when your group rushes in? They will go straight for you and ignore the tank, every time. Target intelligently. When appropriate, AoE, and when it's not appropriate, focus on spellcasters. They will be out of spell range for you and you will pull their attention from the group. Your evasion and Freedom of Movement will let you drop them while the group focuses on melee mobs and bosses.

    3. Just because Manyshot is up doesn't mean you should open up your attacks on a boss with it. Yes, it's high burst damage. That's the problem. Let aggro get properly seated and wait for a boss to be at 75% or 50% before blowing Manyshot. You will be amazed at the change in your aggro profile.

    4. When possible, take advantage of what you're good at. If nothing you're good at is useful to the group, don't be afraid to pull out two weapons and melee or even offheal. If you find a situation that will be useful to the group, don't be afraid to ask or offer.

    Examples:
    "Hey, Tank, if you shield block in front of me I can take out all of those archers up top and we can save the healer some mana for the boss fight over this bridge."
    "Hey guys, let me pull the Fire Elemental to the Southeast Corner, I'll prep him at 5% and you guys can focus on the other mobs so we can get this done faster."
    "Hey, before you disarm that trap, let me run ahead and pull. Maybe we can drag them across the flame jets and save ourselves the hassle."
    "Hey, let me sprint ahead and gather them up for Firewall, I'll be back in a moment with lots of juicy targets."
    "Mind if I kite these little guys around while you guys drop the boss?"

    5. Arcane Arrows and you!
    One of the biggest perks to being an Arcane Archer is that outside of Greater Bane Bows, you don't need to worry about the bonus on your bow, just look for prefixes and suffixes. With an unlimited supply of +5 Arrows that +1 Paralyzing Bow is the same as a +5 Paralyzing Bow. This will let you amass a collection of quality bows at a much cheaper cost than most are faced with when acquiring multiple weapons. Enjoy it and plan for it.

    These are just my opinions, of course, and I welcome contradicting opinion and feedback. I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many complaints about Arcane Archers and even seeing them being forced out of groups for no other reason than ignorance and bias. A properly played Arcane Archer, in my opinion is an asset, not a liability, and learning how to better work as a group helps us all be better players.

    -Rivenstar, 20 Ranger Arcane Archer, Khyber-

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    A well thought out and worded thread on an MMO forum???

    Whoda thunkit!!!!

    Excellent points that I will be referring back to from time to time as I level my AA Ranger.
    Thank you for the great post!

  3. #3
    Community Member sirdanile's Avatar
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    Me and my little arcane archer like this thread!
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  4. #4
    Community Member Qzipoun's Avatar
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    How are you soloing TOR gatekeeper? Can a hireling stand on his square and survive long enough for him to spawn?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    My 20 Ranger Arcane Archer can solo Gianthold Tor on Normal with a Hireling (including dragons), frequently does Weapon Shipment runs in Shavarath, and can handle most quests completely solo, even quests in the Vale.
    Weapons Shipment is such a notoriously easy quest that to mention it has a negative impact on the impression of solo capability. I can't think of any other quest where the whole party going AFK for 10 minutes during the boss fight will still result in a victory. Mentioning New Invasion, Iron Maw, or Sins would've been more impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Outdoor Zones:
    Outdoor areas seem made for the Arcane Archer.
    Outdoor zones are easy for all characters (except for Subterane). I don't quite understand why someone would go ransacking Devil Battlefield, instead of running Shavarath dungeons to get a chance at boot ingredients along with the vendor trash.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Ranged Tanking:
    Arcane Archers excel at Ranged Tanking, but very few groups either allow them the opportunity or have ever used the strategy. An Arcane Archer can easily strafe tank the fire elemental boss in the Shroud in the Southeast corner with no support whatsoever and prep it at 5% for the boss kill order.
    That's something all rangers, monks, and rogues can do. People with Evasion don't care about damage from that fire elemental. Why even strafe?

    I don't bother moving around when holding aggro on multiple epic fire elementals...

    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    In addition to kiting, snaring, crippling, circle strafing, and other tactics, the Arcane Archer can take an otherwise unmanageable fight and make it manageable.
    Otherwise unmanageable? Because the rest of us don't have Fear or Fearsome or Fascinate or Command?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Examples:
    "Hey, Tank, if you shield block in front of me I can take out all of those archers up top and we can save the healer some mana for the boss fight over this bridge."
    "Hey guys, let me pull the Fire Elemental to the Southeast Corner, I'll prep him at 5% and you guys can focus on the other mobs so we can get this done faster."
    "Hey, before you disarm that trap, let me run ahead and pull. Maybe we can drag them across the flame jets and save ourselves the hassle."
    "Hey, let me sprint ahead and gather them up for Firewall, I'll be back in a moment with lots of juicy targets."
    "Mind if I kite these little guys around while you guys drop the boss?"
    1. NPC archers shouldn't be able to hit you regardless of anyone blocking.
    2. Any mage, cleric, or evasioner character can do that.
    3. Anyone with feet can do that.
    4. Good mages can pull their own aggro into firewalls.
    5. Anyone with a ranged attack and feet can do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    These are just my opinions, of course, and I welcome contradicting opinion and feedback. I'm just sick and tired of seeing so many complaints about Arcane Archers and even seeing them being forced out of groups for no other reason than ignorance and bias.
    Your position could be more convincing if you'd mention some other things you had compared it against. For example, did you try playing a Tempest Ranger or Favored Soul doing similar things? How much worse were they for soloing?

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    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    a hearty plus one for you.

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    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I like it.

    But many of those things can be done by other classes/specialties as well.

    One of the biggest handicaps to any archer in DDO, is other players cooperation.

    Of course that applies to all tactics.

    I find the best way to use many tactics in this game, is not to ask others, but to zerge ahead, so that when he group arrives you already have the fight controlled the way you would like.

    This applies to any tactics, not just ranged ones.

    I think it is important to build a Ranger (and other clases if possible) to have many options at their disposal.

    Like Ranged, melee, stealth....etc.

    I see a Ranger's biggest advantage as verisitility. Without really any sacrifice IMO.

    Tempests should use bows, and AAs shoud use melee weps. When it makes sense to do so. Both shoud invest in Stealth skills to have that option available.

    They should all have healing capability. And if possible, the ability to turtle up and tank. (although meaningful high lvl AC is difficult to get)

    Their spell selection should consist of resists and protects if possible. And a means of summoning a monster for distraction purposes.

    Should have a cure disease wand. (and all chars should have pots of important cure-alls)

    A very powerful class no matter what enhancement line they take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  8. #8
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    Default Arcane Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Weapons Shipment is such a notoriously easy quest that to mention it has a negative impact on the impression of solo capability. I can't think of any other quest where the whole party going AFK for 10 minutes during the boss fight will still result in a victory. Mentioning New Invasion, Iron Maw, or Sins would've been more impressive.
    I was actually talking about the optional devil boss, portals, elite Barbazu, and chest at the end, not the easy ambush with the tunnels and the Warforged Titan. I should have been more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Outdoor zones are easy for all characters (except for Subterane). I don't quite understand why someone would go ransacking Devil Battlefield, instead of running Shavarath dungeons to get a chance at boot ingredients along with the vendor trash.
    My point was that as a self healing character with stealth and burst DPS I can run all the rares without having to kill the mobs in between, and that I can do it without a hireling. I'd be fascinated to see someone do that on a rogue. Those bosses hit VERY hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    That's something all rangers, monks, and rogues can do. People with Evasion don't care about damage from that fire elemental. Why even strafe?

    I don't bother moving around when holding aggro on multiple epic fire elementals...
    Actually, if you stay in melee range with a fire elemental you double the number of saves you have to make, one from their damage aura and the other from their fireball effect. Eventually fire elementals will stay at range and just throw fireballs, but you have to find the sweet spot. Given that one failed save will hit you for 100, having your own fire protection buff and heals makes you self sufficient. If you do this on a rogue or a monk you'll make twice the saves and in the event of rolling ones will need heals. I was pointing out that an Arcane Archer can accomplish this without any support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Otherwise unmanageable? Because the rest of us don't have Fear or Fearsome or Fascinate or Command?
    That really depends on the group makeup. I was speaking of group play here, not raid play. In a raid you have all kinds of tools at your disposal. In a group you may not have someone with those spells, or the capacity to make them hit reliably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    1. NPC archers shouldn't be able to hit you regardless of anyone blocking.
    2. Any mage, cleric, or evasioner character can do that.
    3. Anyone with feet can do that.
    4. Good mages can pull their own aggro into firewalls.
    5. Anyone with a ranged attack and feet can do that.
    1. That actually depends on how many archers and whether they are shooting from the sides or from above and the front. As you point out, arrows are quite easy to dodge in many circumstances. What these were supposed to be were examples of trying to communicate with the group instead of keeping a solo mentality (I firmly believe a solo mentality is what makes many Arcane Archers hard to group with).
    2. I wasn't saying that other people can't accomplish what Arcane Archers do using similar mechanics. The point was to emphasize that Arcane Archers aren't useless in groups. Have you ever been booted from a group simply because people think that your 'spec' is gimp and won't give you a chance to prove otherwise?
    3. Anyone with Evasion to run through the trap in the first place and feet, you mean. Once again, not saying these are all unique contributions, simply that they're contributions to a team mindset and good grouping.
    4. Not all mages can successfully kite 30 mobs through a firewall and with Manyshot I can keep the aggro on myself, rather than the mage. Game-breaking, no. Useful? Sure. Once again, this is about fostering teamwork for the Arcane Archer mindset. You're nit-picking here.
    5. Many mobs cannot be kited without a sprint enhancement end-game. Haste won't cut it. Another character with sprint may be able to kite the mobs, but will have considerably more trouble killing any of them to any large degree while the group fights the boss.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Your position could be more convincing if you'd mention some other things you had compared it against. For example, did you try playing a Tempest Ranger or Favored Soul doing similar things? How much worse were they for soloing?
    This is actually fair criticism. I'd be happy to get back to this one after I level a few more toons past 15. A linear comparison might have some more merit.

    All in all, thanks for the feedback. Your responses were a bit cynical, but I expected some of that when I made this thread. Keep in mind that my ultimate point was that Arcane Archers can be a useful contributing group member end-game and to provide advice to Arcane Archers to help them all be more group-friendly. Are Arcane Archers the strongest class in the game? Absolutely not. Are they so useless that you should boot one the moment they join your group? I'd like to think not, but some people maintain exactly this position. That's one of the reasons I made this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    I like it.

    But many of those things can be done by other classes/specialties as well.

    One of the biggest handicaps to any archer in DDO, is other players cooperation.

    Of course that applies to all tactics.
    Absolutely, agree totally. I wasn't trying to say that Arcane Archers are snowflakes, simply that they're not useless. I've heard many stories and had a few frustrating personal experiences of being booted from a group simply because I have a bow in my hand. Some reasons for this are somewhat valid (the majority of Arcane Archers not knowing when to stop kiting, for example) and others are based on prejudice, "All ranged DPS is gimp, therefore this person can't contribute to the group and I'm going to invite an X instead."

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    Default Arcane Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Qzipoun View Post
    How are you soloing TOR gatekeeper? Can a hireling stand on his square and survive long enough for him to spawn?
    You have two options. One is to buff the higher level cleric hireling with consumables from wands (Blur, etc) and then yes, the cleric hireling can survive the skeletons and kill them/survive long enough to spawn the Gatekeeper. Occasionally the hireling can get knocked off the plate (the skeletons knock back) but it will work after an attempt or two.

    The other option is to put them on passive against one of the pillars and then wand them with invisibility. The downside to this approach is that you'll have to kill all the skeletons AND the boss when the fields drop.

    As for the dragon fights, they're not that hard with Manyshot + Slaying Arrows + a decent bow. Just line up the two Bosses and they'll drop at the same time. Un-even procs with the two targets will sometimes result in one of them standing back up, in which case you'll have to start over after kiting for a while. Mitigation clickies help here.

    The reward is ransack on all the scale chests (I got everything for my black dragon armor in one week from drops, color trades with scales, and 150k plat).

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Actually, if you stay in melee range with a fire elemental you double the number of saves you have to make, one from their damage aura and the other from their fireball effect. Eventually fire elementals will stay at range and just throw fireballs, but you have to find the sweet spot. Given that one failed save will hit you for 100, having your own fire protection buff and heals makes you self sufficient. If you do this on a rogue or a monk you'll make twice the saves
    This is factually incorrect in multiple ways. Suffice it to say that characters with evasion have no trouble punching out a fire elemental in the face.

  12. #12
    Community Member grodon9999's Avatar
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    I have an AA 20 (first toon) and a 17th level Exploiter. While the exploiter is much better at melee she isn't bad at dealing damage (his AC gives him great staying power). I have a feeling he's be more useful against raid bosses but against normal bosses in Amrath/IQ/DD/ETC there's something really awesome about being able to toss out 8500 points of damage to multiple targets.

    That said the second GR is available with alignment change I'm tempted to make her a high AC tempest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    This is factually incorrect in multiple ways. Suffice it to say that characters with evasion have no trouble punching out a fire elemental in the face.
    How is it factually incorrect? Fire Elementals provoke a reflex save with an aura on a pulse, just like Air Elementals do with their knockdown aura. In the Shroud on Normal their Fireball hits for 100+. A Ranger not only has evasion but the ability to self-cast Protection from Fire. If a Monk or Rogue rolls badly a few times on their saves they'll definitely need a heal (although a Monk could simply self heal). Once again, I wasn't saying that other characters can't do the same job, just that Arcane Archers can do it equally well and will have to roll less saves from range and get a Fire Protection self buff. It seems you're just being contrary without purpose here.

    The meat of the argument is that an Arcane Archer can contribute effectively to a group or raid and that not all of their contribution comes from straight DPS as you'd find with a Tempest. That's the point of the thread. Nitpicking the idiosyncrasies of Evasion-tanking a Fire Elemental doesn't really seem productive here.

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    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    You forgot to mention that anything an Arcane Archer can do, a tempest ranger can do with melee and they will be better, faster, and with more DPS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    You forgot to mention that anything an Arcane Archer can do, a tempest ranger can do with melee and they will be better, faster, and with more DPS.
    Anything a Wizard can do, a Sorcerer can do more often and with more sustained DPS. Does that mean that we shouldn't group with Wizards? Does that means Wizards are useless?

    Since when does DPS and only DPS become the measuring stick for class viability?

    Tempest is a high melee damage path. Arcane Archer is a crowd control and moderate ranged damage path.

    If DPS is all you want to consider, an Arcane Archer can Manyshot on a group of mobs, doing an average of 25 damage more per arrow than a Tempest, and since Tempests usually dip into another class to optimize their DPS, the Arcane Archer has the Capstone as well. This means 25% more arrows during Manyshot, 25% more damage plus an average of 25 more damage per arrow, and then the Arcane Archer can still switch to dual wielding weapons and Melee (and should if trying to optimize their DPS).

    Is the difference really so appreciable that Arcane Archers shouldn't be invited to groups or shouldn't be considered as a path?

    I'd invite you to show me that that's the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    I My point was that as a self healing character with stealth and burst DPS I can run all the rares without having to kill the mobs in between, and that I can do it without a hireling. I'd be fascinated to see someone do that on a rogue. Those bosses hit VERY hard.

    I don't think a rogue with 70-80 selfbuffed AC and nofail healscrolls would have any problems there.
    Kiting is not the only way to avoid taking damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    The meat of the argument is that an Arcane Archer can contribute effectively to a group or raid and that not all of their contribution comes from straight DPS as you'd find with a Tempest.
    You have not demonstrated that. As Angelus_dead pointed out, most of what you've identified as a part of an Arcane Archer's contribution to the party can be easily done by anyone, anyone, anyone with Evasion or anyone carrying a bow in his backpack; meanwhile, those other character all bring other more useful contribution (DPS, healing, etc.). Training Arcane Archer (or speccing for ranged combat) is not required nor represents a noteworthy advantage for anything you've mentioned in this thread.

    Just in case:
    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    1. That actually depends on how many archers and whether they are shooting from the sides or from above and the front. As you point out, arrows are quite easy to dodge in many circumstances. What these were supposed to be were examples of trying to communicate with the group instead of keeping a solo mentality (I firmly believe a solo mentality is what makes many Arcane Archers hard to group with).
    2. I wasn't saying that other people can't accomplish what Arcane Archers do using similar mechanics. The point was to emphasize that Arcane Archers aren't useless in groups. Have you ever been booted from a group simply because people think that your 'spec' is gimp and won't give you a chance to prove otherwise?
    3. Anyone with Evasion to run through the trap in the first place and feet, you mean. Once again, not saying these are all unique contributions, simply that they're contributions to a team mindset and good grouping.
    4. Not all mages can successfully kite 30 mobs through a firewall and with Manyshot I can keep the aggro on myself, rather than the mage. Game-breaking, no. Useful? Sure. Once again, this is about fostering teamwork for the Arcane Archer mindset. You're nit-picking here.
    5. Many mobs cannot be kited without a sprint enhancement end-game. Haste won't cut it. Another character with sprint may be able to kite the mobs, but will have considerably more trouble killing any of them to any large degree while the group fights the boss.
    1. I'll give you this one, but rarely is valuable (need a weak party and a quest presenting you with such a scenario).
    2. Easily done by characters with good self-healing, Fire Shield or Evasion.
    3. Easily replicated by anyone with feet (traps can be dodged by using your keyboard's space bar).
    4. Marginally useful (only useful if dealing with gravely incompetent mages). Nullified by Intimidate.
    5. Does not require nor reward training Arcane Archer or ranged combat.

    Again, it's not "Arcane Archers are not capable of contributing in any way" but rather "other characters can do all of that pretty easily, and do so much more that the Arcane Archer cannot do." The few of things you've mentioned that can be attributed as unique to ranged characters are usually only marginally useful and only useful if your party is under average.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Anything a Wizard can do, a Sorcerer can do more often and with more sustained DPS. Does that mean that we shouldn't group with Wizards? Does that means Wizards are useless?
    The difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is much smaller than the difference between a Tempest and an Arcane Archer.
    Last edited by Borror0; 03-06-2010 at 09:04 PM.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I'll add something about the Shroud Fire Ellie.

    It is safer to range him. He has a melee attack, but he actually prefers to throw fireballs.

    A Rgr is ideally suited for soloing him IMO.
    Fire Resist and Protect, and self healing. Evasion.
    And of course the bow.

    What I ran into on a non-AA was that without Manyshot, I could not take him down by myself while ranging. And if I meleed him, his melee attack messed me up bad, so that I could not keep on him long enough to take him down. Had this trouble with my Monk too.

    But a good AA should be able to range him solo easily (in theory)
    (of course a better DPS Monk, Rogue, or melee Ranger could take him down by melee ok too.)

    there is lots of ways to use lots of classes to do what you need them to.

    Certainly an AA does not have much of a monopoly on anything.

    But creative players and leaders can find ways to capitalize on its strengths.
    (if they want to.....)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #19
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    Default Arcane Archers

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Again, it's not "Arcane Archers are not capable of contributing in any way" but rather "other characters can do all of that pretty easily, and do so much more that the Arcane Archer cannot do." The few of things you've mentioned that can be attributed as unique to ranged characters are usually only marginally useful and only useful if your party is under average.
    It truly does amount to this, however, when raid leaders begin booting Arcane Archers. If the end difference amounts to a 10-15% difference in total dps between the two is that really that far off from the Wizard/Sorcerer comparison? Is it fair to boot other players because of a 10% damage difference and a change in playstyle choice? That's what I'm trying to stop here. No one will argue that this game isn't focused on Melee DPS, it definitely is. The fact that an Arcane Archer MUST switch to melee weapons outside of Manyshot supports that. It's a sad truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    The difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is much smaller than the difference between a Tempest and an Arcane Archer.
    Is that really true? As I said in my last post, I would like to see the difference between Manyshot + Melee Dual Wielding for both the Tempest and the Arcane Archer. Each path will do more damage in each area. The actual percentage damage difference shouldn't be terribly large but honestly we're theorycrafting and injecting bias until we see the numbers.

    Specifically, if an Arcane Archer Manyshots when it's up and then switches to Melee Dual Wielding, how does that compare to a Tempest either doing straight Melee DPS or employing the same tactic?

    Is the percentage difference really so appreciable that we devalue an entire path?

    One thing I do know is that recent improvements notwithstanding ranged characters have had very underwhelming dps in the past and that this lends a lot of bias in these kinds of arguments. Shadow Priests had the same issues in WoW. Even when their DPS was increased they would simply be booted from groups for not being healers. Choosing one spec over another shouldn't exclude a person from high level content.

    When it comes to Wizards and Sorcerers, what's the typical spell point difference between a high level Sorcerer and Wizard? How many more spell casts does the Sorcerer get as opposed to the Wizard when rush DPSing a target?

    I'd venture to say until we BOTH saw the numbers for these kinds of situations that simply dismissing the comparison out of hand or saying flatly that the difference isn't as much amounts to simple bias.

  20. #20
    WikiGnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    If the end difference amounts to a 10-15% difference in total dps between the two is that really that far off from the Wizard/Sorcerer comparison?
    The difference between ranged and melee is much greater than 10-15%, which was my point.

    You mention Arcane Archers using TWF most of the time and switching to ranged only for Manyshot. No one gets kicked out of a group for that. Arcane Archers that do get kicked out of a group are the ones that use ranged combat when they shouldn't (ie when Manyshot is on timer). While the position to pick Arcane Archer is indefensible from an optimization point of view (ie there is no noteworthy advantage to it), it's not something you'd get kicked out of a group for.

    You're getting opposition for three reasons:
    1. Your OP might be mistaken as a defense of ranged combat.
    2. Your OP might be mistaken as an argument showing that picking Arcane Archer is a defensible choice, offering simply different but equally useful benefits than Tempest - which is false.
    3. Your OP presents non-exclusive and marginally useful benefits as otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnsharDarkangel View Post
    Is it fair to boot other players because of a 10% damage difference and a change in playstyle choice?
    No.
    Last edited by Borror0; 03-06-2010 at 10:12 PM.
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