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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stermlin View Post
    How was I wrong? I said 5.5 average for Khopesh and 9 average for Bastard Sword, exactly like you just repeated. So what exactly did I say wrong? Maybe you need to read my post again?
    Lets assume 36str, +5 mineral II greensteel, +9 damage bard buff, seeker +6

    Bastard sword
    2d8 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 42 on HIT
    2*(2d8 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +6 seeker) +1d10burst + 1d10blast +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 112.5on CRIT

    Khopesh sword
    1d10 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +3.5acid +2.5bleed = 38.5 on HIT
    3*(1d10 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +6 seeker ) +2d10burst + 2d10blast +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 161 on CRIT

    If you say 2-16 are hits and 17-20 are crits then...
    Bastard sword does 54.7 damage on average
    Khopesh does 61.8 damage on average

    You can check my math... or you can read 1 of the other 500 khopesh > all for 0% fort non-autocrittable mob threads.
    Last edited by Logic; 04-05-2010 at 04:45 PM. Reason: yep wizz is right, 38.5 not 39.5

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stermlin View Post
    How was I wrong?
    Because you assumed the character has 10 strength and no damage buffs.

  3. #23
    Community Member Gelmir87's Avatar
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    I think assuming a 36 STR is a little high. Even as a fighter, sustainable STR = 18+5(levels)+3(fighter)+6(item)=33, 34 if Human, and that's assuming you start at an 18 STR. If you are TWF as a fighter, starting with a 15 dex and eating a +2 tome causes a higher strength to be even harder to attain. If you're talking fully raid buffed with 1 minute clickys and pots for massively high level toon, sure it's good, but for the basic population, I'd say we calculate a little lower.

    So lets say 30 STR (easily attainable for a TWF-ing fighter or Ranger), and also, unless you are running a full raid buff, a +9 bard buff is rarely an attribute of a normal 6-man party, so I'd count that out also. Now since most people have friends that they can borrow from, or steal from, or farm with, a Bloodstone is pretty accessible.

    Base percentage per hit = 5.26% 1 = miss
    2-16 = 78.9%
    17-20 = 21.1%

    +5 GS Bastard Sword = 2d8+5 X2
    Damage = 7-21 // 14-42(crit)
    STR+BS Damage = 17-31 // 46-74
    AVG Damage = 31.596/hit

    +5 GS Kopesh = 1d10+5 X3
    Damage = 6-15 // 18-45
    STR+BS = 16-25 // 66-93
    AVG Damage = 32.949/hit

    This is base damage per weapon for a Blank. Adding in the bonuses from say a MinII if you go Good+Acid+Acid VS a non resistant enemy, the damage boost for a kopesh comes only from a critical hit in which it gains and extra 1d10 from burst and 1d10 from blast Acid Damage which is negligible vs most devils and end game mobs.

    This is from a standard point of most players in the game. The damage difference will increase slightly as your damage boosts and strength boosts increase with raid buffs, but this damage is not as different as most lead you to believe.

    Again, VS anything with a heavy to immunity to crits, the bastard sword will win do to it's higher basic damage.

    Edit: Forgot how to add... LoL.
    Last edited by Gelmir87; 04-05-2010 at 03:21 AM.


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  4. #24
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logic View Post
    Lets assume 36str, +5 mineral II greensteel, +9 damage bard buff, seeker +6

    Bastard sword
    2d8 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 42 on HIT
    2*(2d8 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +6 seeker) +1d10burst + 1d10blast +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 112.5on CRIT

    Khopesh sword
    1d10 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +3.5acid +2.5bleed = 38.5 on HIT
    3*(1d10 + 5bonus + 13str + 9bard +6 seeker ) +2d10burst + 2d10blast +1d6acid + 1d4bleed = 161 on CRIT

    If you say 2-16 are hits and 17-20 are crits then...
    Bastard sword does 54.7 damage on average
    Khopesh does 61.8 damage on average

    You can check my math... or you can read 1 of the other 500 khopesh > all for 0% fort non-autocrittable mob threads.
    Redo your math.

    The enemies that we care about dps the most on tend to have at least some fortification. I'm not knowledgable about their various levels of fort (except that I know that the Abbot's is 100%, seeing as he is undead) so I will leave the specifics of that to others, but if the fort is of a sufficiently high value then you may achieve higher dps with a bastard sword than with a khopesh (though if this were true, then it is also true that you would achieve even higher dps with a dwarven axe than with a bastard sword).

  5. #25
    Community Member toughguyjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelmir87 View Post
    I think assuming a 36 STR is a little high. Even as a fighter, sustainable STR = 18+5(levels)+3(fighter)+6(item)=33, 34 if Human, and that's assuming you start at an 18 STR. If you are TWF as a fighter, starting with a 15 dex and eating a +2 tome causes a higher strength to be even harder to attain. If you're talking fully raid buffed with 1 minute clickys and pots for massively high level toon, sure it's good, but for the basic population, I'd say we calculate a little lower.
    A 36 str is not as hard to attain as you make it out to be. While its not something is going to strive for, its not too hard to attain.

    first, 18base +5level+3Fighter+6Item+3ToDRing+2Tome=37 is certainly not out of the question for MANY melee toons on ALL servers. Even with just +2 excptional Str on a ToD ring puts you at the 36 before any buffs are used on you.

    A ranger at 30, like in the part of your post i didn't quote is still semi low. An AC build ranger, which I do not have, I can't make assumptions about, but a Dwarven DPS ranger will start with a 16-18 in str for a final of Base+5level+2Tome+6Item+3ToDRing+2Rams= 34/36 depending on starting stats.

    Barbarians...Well. Geez. Base 18+5level+2Tome+6Item+12MightyRage+2Capstone+3TodR ing= 48......

    I guess if you take the ToD rings out you're closer to right, though above thirty is still easy, but they're the only raid loot generated in the current highest level raid, why wouldn't a toon strive to get one and craft it the way he wants it?
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    if u put 1000 smurves in front of 1000 computers, eventually one of them will make a pally that isnt a complete abomination.
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    Why should I care about what none friends think? It really not like anythink they do are say in this game really affects me.

  6. #26
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelmir87 View Post
    I think assuming a 36 STR is a little high. Even as a fighter, sustainable STR = 18+5(levels)+3(fighter)+6(item)=33, 34 if Human, and that's assuming you start at an 18 STR. [snip]

    So lets say 30 STR [snip] .
    No, let's not say 30 strength. You are ignoring strength tomes, exceptional strength, yugo pots, store pots, rage, et cetera. 36 strength is low, 30 is just sad.

    18
    +5 levels
    +3 fighter (just to play along with your example)
    +6 item
    +2 rage
    +2 tome
    = 36 easily attainable
    +3 exceptional
    +1 tome (+3 instead of +2)
    +2 yugo pot
    +2 store pot
    = 44 strength, still not maxed
    +1 tome (+4 instead of +3)
    +3 house d pot
    +2 madstone, single
    = 50 sustainable strength - on a non-human pure fighter

  7. #27
    Community Member fytorebus's Avatar
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    I say Khopesh. (It also looks cooler!)


    We live a dying dream, if you know what I mean.

  8. #28
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stermlin View Post
    I'm going to go against the grain here. Khopesh is a better weapon in the early and middle levels of the game. But once you get to Green Steel the difference is pretty negligible and might even favor the Bastard Sword. Here's my math on it: A normal Khopesh does 1d8x3. A Green Steel Khopesh does 1d10x3. So assuming average damage done with a GS Khopesh,, 5.5, and assume a +5 Str enhancement, your doing 10.5 points of damage with your primary hand. Multiply that by three when you crit and your doing 31.5 damage. Now let's look at the Bastard Sword. A normal Bastard Sword does 1d10x2. But a Green Steel does 2d8x2. So with your average hit with a Bastard Sword, 9, and adding 5 points for Str, your doing 14 points of damage on a non-crit and 28 points on a crit. So while your losing a few points when you crit with a Bastard Sword, your gaining damage when you don't crit. So while the normal Khopesh is better than a normal Bastard Sword, once you get to Green Steel they are pretty much equal. And Bastard Swords have the advantage of being cheap and easy to come by. Because of that, I have to say that I prefer GS Bastard Swords over GS Khopeshs.
    One gets the impression you have no mid to high level strength based melee ... or for possibly any melee? Even many non-melee do more than +5 bonus damage when they pick up a weapon at level 20... Green Steel itself is a +5 weapon so this melee you speak about has only 10 str (mod +0) standing and no items, or anything else? Even a finesse build is going to have about 20-26 strength and they would not be using either bastard sword nor Khopesh since neither is finessable they could not get a decent "To-Hit" with one... the finesse based character is normally running with about a 20+ damage mod under buff and/or class bonus'.

    Just having a bard along per-say will be +6 to +9 on top of it in a raid group. A typical twf fighter has +11 with just weapon specialization (+4 to +6) plus PA (+5) on before counting in strength mod + now that is per swing not even counting seeker from bloodstone nor SA etc... then we have Barbarians Raged up, Rangers and +12 favored enemy, Pallys divine might + divine favor, etc... fighters actually have to close gaps via 35% haste boosts and capstones to compete with other class bonus' Stop guessing and try a real number like +50 is resaonable on a buffed strength build holding said +5 weapons.

    A kensai under running buffs...



    Quote Originally Posted by Gelmir87 View Post
    I think assuming a 36 STR is a little high. Even as a fighter, sustainable STR = 18+5(levels)+3(fighter)+6(item)=33, 34 if Human, and that's assuming you start at an 18 STR. If you are TWF as a fighter, starting with a 15 dex and eating a +2 tome causes a higher strength to be even harder to attain. If you're talking fully raid buffed with 1 minute clickys and pots for massively high level toon, sure it's good, but for the basic population, I'd say we calculate a little lower.
    .
    30 str would make for a sad fighter ... I've 34 on my ranger and 36 on my barb and 32 on my pally just standing around before rams, rage, divine favor or any buffs. I've 30 strength on my FvS and people sometimes hear me complain that I feel like a "weak sided pally" because she lacks zeal and divine might and smites.

    The fighter in my signature is a pure TWF Khopesh weilding human Kensai III... with just a +2 str tome she stands at 38 strength before even using any Yugo pots, madstones, kensai boosts or rages... and no litany profane bonus. Play the game and numbers are easy to aquire.

    18 starting
    +5 levels
    +3 fighter str enhancements
    +1 Human adaptability (one of the few things Human get to compete with other races for output)
    +2 tome
    +6 item
    +3 exceptional (encrusted Tod ring +1 exceptional upgraded with an additional +2 exceptional strength)
    ---
    38

    When I get a +4 tome she will be standing unbuffed at 40...

    for now... she's normal running quest with about 52 thru trash... She yugo pots (+2) though, rage pot if spell (+2) add madstone (+2) and Kensai Boost (+8)... to run her at 52 strength sustained easily and maintains such for near every encounter between shrines - then come raid boss I may push her well beyond 60+ as an easy mark... with titan grip (+6), double madstone (for another +2), +3 denieth pot and blooded +6 (which I rarely do) ... any combination I have the items and yes I use them as I see fit. Why do you think I collected all this stuff if I'm not going to use it?

    My viewpoint ... a level 20 figher should be running above 40 strength normally to poise any dps (or else turtle up tank and intimidate) below 34 (if you're not a tank) you're better off rolling a Barb, tempest, pally, rogue, bard or any other melee... outside of strength all a fighter has for it are weapon focus and specialization feats (a possible +6 in damage)... PA every DPS focus'd melee take... Tacticals? Again To-Hit is required To-Land .... again Strength plus weapon focus come into play. 30 strength is so light for a prime "To-hit" value in end game for a fighter you had best provide other options for the group - intimidate, UMD etc... Pally, ranger, rogue may adjust to such as they have extra damage bonus and dice the fighter may not compete with.


    My viewpoint on weapons... either Khopesh or Bastard sword or any other weapon suffice enough... I do not care if you use a mop or broom handle just kill the mob quickly... and to those arguing the bastardsword better for fort point of view, fort is a bad arguement for the weapon - If fort was your concern then why would you not be a dwarf instead what is the purpose of feating bastard sword in? Grab a Dwarf axe instead... Bastardsword only serves one purpose and that is for flavor.

    Last edited by Emili; 04-05-2010 at 11:18 AM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member SquelchHU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stermlin View Post
    I'm going to go against the grain here. Khopesh is a better weapon in the early and middle levels of the game. But once you get to Green Steel the difference is pretty negligible and might even favor the Bastard Sword. Here's my math on it: A normal Khopesh does 1d8x3. A Green Steel Khopesh does 1d10x3. So assuming average damage done with a GS Khopesh,, 5.5, and assume a +5 Str enhancement, your doing 10.5 points of damage with your primary hand. Multiply that by three when you crit and your doing 31.5 damage. Now let's look at the Bastard Sword. A normal Bastard Sword does 1d10x2. But a Green Steel does 2d8x2. So with your average hit with a Bastard Sword, 9, and adding 5 points for Str, your doing 14 points of damage on a non-crit and 28 points on a crit. So while your losing a few points when you crit with a Bastard Sword, your gaining damage when you don't crit. So while the normal Khopesh is better than a normal Bastard Sword, once you get to Green Steel they are pretty much equal. And Bastard Swords have the advantage of being cheap and easy to come by. Because of that, I have to say that I prefer GS Bastard Swords over GS Khopeshs.
    What character has only 14 damage hits with a 2d8 weapon? That's literally +5 enhancement and nothing else from strength, buffs, power attack...

    Where are these 10 str melees using a melee weapon?

    And even using that terrible example, that means the Khopesh is doing 283.5 over 20 hits, and the Bastard Sword is doing 322 over 20 hits. So yes with that terrible example the Bastard Sword is technically better, but both are so terribly, terribly gimpy that no one cares.

    Using an actual example with numbers you are more likely to have at the time gives numbers more like this:

    Khopesh: 1d10+50 = 55.5 on a hit, 166.5 on a crit.

    1: Miss.
    2-16: 55.5 * 15 = 832.5.
    17-20: 55.5 * 12 = 666.

    = 1,498.5.

    Bastard Sword: 2d8+50 = 59 on a hit, 118 on a crit.

    1: Miss.
    2-16: 59 * 15 = 885.
    17-20: 59 * 8 = 472.

    = 1,357.

    And seeker and the like make the Khopesh pull further ahead as it has a better crit profile. The Khopesh is also more useful in auto crit situations.

  10. #30
    Community Member Thalmor's Avatar
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    From the Compendium the following is the defination of a Critical Hit

    "A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue’s sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)"

    So according this you calculations of Critical Hit are a little off, as all Critical threats have to be confirmed.

  11. #31
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmor View Post
    From the Compendium the following is the defination of a Critical Hit

    "A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue’s sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)"

    So according this you calculations of Critical Hit are a little off, as all Critical threats have to be confirmed.
    Speaking of critical rolls ... many a time people have asked me on such things as enhancement: fighter critical accuracy or feat: power critical. The practical use of these in game play are ... enhancement: fighter critical accuracy - only purpose really seems to be Kensai pre-req... and feat: power critical litterally a waste unless your "to-hit" be so low on the mob to actually adhere to missing it enough ... What I mean by this is most mob in the game today lack any real AC ... I have not seen any AC on mob outside epic or Elite and then only on nameds. We're running arround with +40-70 to-hits on average and very very few mob have AC's within said range... fact be a any seeker item beit bloodstone (which these items also add crit damage too - i.e. +18 on bloodstone) on a charcter even higher effective then either enhancement or feat...

    Also... I'd like to point out - look at your logs.

    The confirm critical roll does not follow suit in rule as an actual "To-Hit" roll does... what I mean is a "To-Hit" roll of a one is always a "miss". That is not true of a "Confirm" roll a "To-hit" roll of "one" will often look like - you rolled a 1(+72): critical confirmed. Yes as am stating it is commonplace to succeed critical confirmation on a roll of "one" the sytem counts the "To-Hit" bonus into the result before making the comparison.

    Some bosses ... purples and reds have some fortification ... Harry for example touts light fort in the shroud and hits a mark of medium fort on elite... these occur in the combat log as "critical resisted" when the confirm is actually good. Yet the fact that most strength based melee damage power does not come from the the weapon itself but from the + mod side of the equation tops the dice rolled damage of the weapon even more...

    Last edited by Emili; 04-05-2010 at 09:53 AM.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    use what you like.

    A lot here have given you the math on why Khopesh is better for damage and bastard sword is cheaper, etc. the differences are small enough between any of the weapons that you can do just fine with going with what you like the look of.

  13. #33
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    You can use rapiers, heavy picks, khopesh, bastard swords, dwarven axes, scimitars, whatever and you dps isn't really going to vary by more than 20%. Nothing that will make or break your character and usually will not make or break a raid.

    Anyhow this topic has been beat to death and the conclusion is always the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    For best average dps vs 0% fort red/purple named.. Khopesh.

    But other weapons aren't junk, they have their place.

    Best high fort DPS: Dwarven Axe
    Best 100% crit DPS: Heavy Pick (Dwarven Axe is also ahead of Khopesh here)
    Best versus very high AC target: Dwarven Axe (on dwarf characater with +2 to hit enhance)

  14. #34
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    Last edited by GHBeast; 04-02-2012 at 05:55 AM.

  15. #35
    Community Member Scalion's Avatar
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    The fact is that the more damage bonuses you get the khopesh damage improves more and more against anything that is crittable.

    The bastard sword damage may always average +4 more damage on a non crit, but that +4 will NOT get any better no matter how well geared you get.


    That is why khopesh is better, it simply scales better.

    Base weapon average damage for a Greensteel Batard sword is 9. For a Khopesh it's 5.

    +10 damage bastard sword will hit for (9 + 10) X 2 = 38
    + 10 damage with a Khopesh is (5 +10) X 3 = 45
    This isn't that big a difference, only 7

    If you double the damage, however....
    +20 damage basard sword (9 + 20) X 2 = 58
    +20 damage khopesh (5 + 20) X 3 = 75
    Here the difference is increased to 17

    And at +30 damage... (this +30 isn't even very high considering seeker effects and various buffs available)
    9 + 30 X2 = 78
    Versus 5 + 30 X3 = 105
    A difference of 27

    So the higher your damage bonus gets the more khopesh outshines on a crit.

    On a non crit, the math is simple... There is only EVER a difference of +4 average damage using a bastard sword instead of a khopesh. The difference will NOT increase from 4 on a non crit. There is no scaling whatsoever.


    The ONLY reason a bastard sword is worth considering is to save money, or if you want to go sword and board and get glancing blows.
    Last edited by Scalion; 04-02-2012 at 06:35 AM.

  16. #36
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    Thread necro...

    Also, your example uses characters without Improved Critical, as well as a mediocre strength, no damage bonuses whatsoever, etc. It is hardly a good starting point for comparison. All you have calculated is more or less what would do more damage if a sorcerer/wizard with no investment whatsoever starting dualwielding greensteel weapons for some reason. It is about as relevant as saying that 6 str halfling clerics do more dps than fully geared half-orc barbarians because the barbarian is AFK.

  17. #37
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecerak View Post
    Thread necro...

    Also, your example uses characters without Improved Critical, as well as a mediocre strength, no damage bonuses whatsoever, etc. It is hardly a good starting point for comparison. All you have calculated is more or less what would do more damage if a sorcerer/wizard with no investment whatsoever starting dualwielding greensteel weapons for some reason. It is about as relevant as saying that 6 str halfling clerics do more dps than fully geared half-orc barbarians because the barbarian is AFK.
    well...barbarians don't actually go afk.

    they rage and knock their beer over and have to clean it off of their keyboard
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  18. #38
    Community Member Scalion's Avatar
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    lol, my bad on replying to a necro. I don't even look at the date when I hit the 'new posts' button.

  19. #39
    Community Member MrChipinator's Avatar
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    Everyone knows the Kama is supreme. Sure it may look horrible, and do horrible damage, and have stats that make the starter dagger from Veteran Status look awesome, but don't let that fool you, the Kama Revolution is coming and I suggest you pick the right side.

  20. #40
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    Necro again really, what people seem to be missing is the kopesh is by far the better duel wielding weapon of choice, by far.


    Where bastard swords really shine is sword and boarding as they not only get glancing blows (as if they were a two handed weapon) they also get all the benefits from the two handed fighting feats and enhancements while being wielded in one hand. Glancing blows and fighting lots of mobs can swing the bastard sword dps over the kopesh against mob groups rather than single target dps.

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