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  1. #121
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    We spoke a bit in PM's and i have to thank you yet again for your builds, they helped me set a foot in the maze that id character building in DDO

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by FauxSho View Post
    Don't worry though, I'll toss some tihocan's way for you in either case, since I've been meaning to for all the great work.
    Hehe thanks, though no need to worry about my rep, I reached the point where I can give negative rep, so I don't need more

  3. #123
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    Default Spellsinger

    Spellsinger (L20 Bard)

    Concept: Support Bard, focused on Crowd-Control and able to do some backup healing
    Original path's flaws: Lacking Empower Healing to boost mass cure spells, waste of a couple build points in Int, and a few minor oddities in spell selection for some races (e.g. Charm Person after Charm Monster, Heroism after Greater Heroism)
    Main fixes: Optimized starting stats (resulting in particular in slighthly higher Con), switched Force of Personality for Empower Healing, and revised spell selection slightly

    Character generator version:
    Melee Variant - Human (28 pt)

    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

    Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
    ........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
    .Str.....10........10........10........10........10........10....
    .Dex.....10........10........10........10........10........10....
    .Con.....14......17/18.....14/15.....15/16.....15/16.....16/17...
    .Int.....10........8.........8.........8.........8.........8.....
    .Wis.....8........8/10......8/9.......8/10......8/10......8/10...
    .Cha.....20........16........18........18........18........16....

    Ability increase every 4 levels: All in Cha.

    Skills (except Human and Drow): Keep maxed out at all levels UMD, Perform, Concentration and Balance. At character creation, get one rank into Tumble and three in Jump, then on next levels always spend your extra skill point into Jump.
    Skills (Human and Drow): Same, but also keep Haggle maxed out at all levels.

    Feats (by level), except Human: Spell Focus: Enchantment (1), Extend (3), Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment (6), Heighten (9), Empower Healing (12), Spell Penetration (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18)
    Feats (by level), Human: Same, but add Mental Toughness at L1.

    For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
    Enhancements (Bard): Charisma II, Concentration II, Energy of the Music III, Improved Spell Penetration II, Inspired Attack III, Inspired Damage III, Lingering Song III, Lyric of Incredible Song II, Lyric of Song II, Musical Prodigy (capstone), Song Magic III, Spellsinger II, Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    Enhancements (Drow): Enchantment Resistance I
    Enhancements (Dwarf): Spell Defense I
    Enhancements (Elf): Enchantment Resistance I
    Enhancements (Halfling): Hero's Companion III
    Enhancements (Human): Adaptatability Charisma I, Versatility III
    Enhancements (Warforged): Healer's Friend I

    Spells taken when leveling up.
    Spells followed by brackets may be swapped for the spell given in brackets, at the character level also provided. Swapping spells is often a non-mandatory minor optimization, so you may decide not to do it if it is too expensive for you (you can also directly pick the spell that should be swapped to, but be careful that you may wish you had the other spell while leveling up).
    • L1: Cure Light Wounds [Feather Fall at L13]
    • L2: Charm Person [Focusing Chant at L7]
    • L3: Hypnotism
    • L4: Heroism [Rage at L8] / Soundburst [Invisibility at L17]
    • L5: Cure Moderate Wounds [Suggestion at L14] / Expeditious Retreat [Detect Secret Doors at L11]
    • L7: Blur / Charm Monster [Cure Serious Wounds at L14] / Haste
    • L8: Good Hope
    • L10: Dimension Door / Displacement / Otto's Sphere of Dancing
    • L11: Freedom of Movement
    • L13: Cure Critical Wounds / Cure Light Wounds, Mass / Greater Heroism
    • L14: Mass Suggestion
    • L16: Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass / Mind Fog / Otto's Irresistible Dance / Remove Fear
    • L17: Glitterdust / Greater Shout
    • L18: Crushing Despair
    • L19: Hold Monster / Mass Charm Monster
    • L20: Greater Dispel Magic


    Soloability by level:

    No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20


    Tips:
    - This build is not meant to solo, your goal is to buff and heal allies, while contributing to fights with crowd-control spells. You will rarely directly kill anyone by yourself, so you should be carrying spell boosting weapons (e.g. weapons with Devotion, Healing Lore, Power, and at higher level Spell Penetration).
    - Learn to take advantage of Fascinate: it is a very strong ability when used in the right place (and at the right time - practice your timing to avoid being killed while fascinating!)
    - You should be able to handle the main healer's job in many quests, as long as you are not trying to tackle a quest too hard for your party. However, be aware it may sometimes get expensive since you may need to rely on wands / Heal scrolls to save spell points. In most raids, although you will not be a main healer (a Cleric or Favored Soul can bring more healing power), you will be able to bring a significant contribution by helping with heals.

    Variants:
    - The proposed build entirely gives up meleeing in favor of offensive casting. It is possible to balance it a bit more to keep some support melee, especially at low level (which would help if you are planning to solo). In order to achieve this, drop Con and Dex to start with 14-16 Str. Use two-handed weapons (Falchion, Greatsword or Greataxe), picking the Master's Touch spell at L2 to gain proficiency in these weapons. If you want to keep meleeing at higher levels, grab Power Attack instead of Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment at L6, and possibly Improved Critial: Slash at L15 (thus losing Greater Spell Penetration). On a Human, you may also swap Mental Toughness for Toughness. Your level-up ability points should still be invested into Cha, so as to keep a decent chance of landing offensive spells (if you want a melee-focused build, a Warchanter build is more appropriate).
    - Irinis offers other sensible options in this post, in particular: (1) Taking Maximize instead of Empower Healing, for more powerful (but less SP-efficient) emergency/backup heals, and being able to sometimes use Greater Shout as a damage-dealing spell. (2) Taking Toughness instead of Mental Toughness on Human, for better survivability. (3) Starting with 12 Str to avoid being made helpless or encumbered, particularly at low level.
    - Note that there is not a lot of freedom in enhancements after you pick the proposed ones, since some of them are quite expensive. In particular, the last rank of Inspired Attack may seem overkill and you could be tempted not to acquire it. This would be fine as long as you are not running Epic content (where a +1 to-hit will be most welcome by your party).
    - On a Human, you can get rid of the Human Versatility enhancement once your UMD is high enough for you to use your preferred scrolls.

    Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red
    Last edited by tihocan; 04-14-2011 at 08:42 AM.

  4. #124
    Community Member Irinis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tihocan View Post
    Spellsinger (L20 Bard)

    Concept: Support Bard, focused on Crowd-Control and able to do some backup healing
    Original path's flaws: Lacking Empower Healing to boost mass cure spells, waste of a couple build points in Int, and a few minor oddities in spell selection for some races (e.g. Charm Person after Charm Monster, Heroism after Greater Heroism)
    Main fixes: Optimized starting stats (resulting in particular in slighthly higher Con), switched Force of Personality for Empower Healing, and revised spell selection slightly
    Feat choice:

    Empower Healing? Why? Maximize is much more effective for emergency/backup healing and also works on Greater Shout, the only direct damage spell a bard gets that works - and it stuns Mindflayers. Plus the Warchanter set reduces the cost of Maximize later on. (So it's good to get that set even on a Spellsinger - many casters get it just for that anyway.)

    On a Human, get Toughness instead of Mental Toughness every time. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED because it also opens up toughness enhancements. This will make you a LOT more survivable than the few extra spellpoints will.

    Spell choice:

    Freedom of Movement is important from an earlier level than 17, especially if you're not taking FoP, and especially if you end up in a shortmanned group without someone else who can cast it.

    Stats:

    Statswise, on 32pt build I would boost STR over CON/WIS in this build, if only to carry loot without getting burdened. My first build Spellsinger's lack of STR is a source of constant frustration. At low levels new players will find the extra STR to be very useful if they can afford 32pt, and at higher levels it will help avoid helplessness from stat damage effects for long enough to drink a potion. I'd even go so far as to try to start with a minimum of 12 STR on a 28pt build and sacrifice CON for it, making it up with a tome later.

    Bards are squishy, invest in a CON tome even if you almost go broke for it if you start with less than 16 CON. It's not as daunting as you might think for a new player to get ONE +2 tome from loot or AH.

    Race:

    Drow should be yellow, not green. The CON problem is a big one for a Bard. 32pt Elf and Drow are about even for a Spellsinger, but Human comes out way ahead due to being able to get almost the same CHA as Drow through enhancements AND have the CON to survive.

    Enhancements:

    On ANY Bard, always max out Attack and Damage lines of enhancements for your Inspire Courage. This will make you a welcome addition to any raid and also to epic quests where to-hit matters.

    On a healing Bard, a couple of investments into Wand and Scroll Mastery can be really helpful in making your scroll healing more effective.

    Extra Songs IV opens up Music of the Dead and Music of Makers, these are amazing songs that enable you to fascinate Undead and Constructs. However you may have to sacrifice higher levels of Lingering Song for it.

    Overall:

    Great job yet again! Eagerly looking forward to your Virtuoso build.
    Please split the class forums into REAL subcategories this is a jumbled mess.

  5. #125
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    Thanks Irinis, all good points. It looks like we have diverging opinions on what is best, which is fine, I certainly can't claim my choices are obviously better than yours. I'll add your suggestions in the variants section, and just justify my own point of view here:

    1. Empower Healing vs Maximize: it's true Maximize will allow more powerful emergency / backup heals, but a lot less of them too as it drains spell points much faster. Bards don't get that many SPs so that's why I picked Empower Healing. The fact Maximize helps one high level spell that can be situationally useful for damage, or its cost is reduced by a high level item set you may not have room for in the long term, does not seem that important to me. Also, Empower Healing is easier to use since you can just leave it on all the time, while with Maximize you typically need to do more micro-management to avoid wasting spell points in situations where you don't need it (or you need to save SPs).

    2. Toughness vs. Mental Toughness on Human: I was debating which one to take. I went with Mental Toughness because more SPs on a casting-focused Bard can't be bad, especially for new players. Now, I totally agree more HPs are also useful for new players. It's a tough call. But this build is not meant to grab aggro, and that's why I went with MT. I've been playing a no-toughness squishy Cleric and it worked fine, so I don't see why it wouldn't work here (remember this is not meant to be a solo build).

    3. FoM taken earlier: I tend to agree with you here, I'll switch Hold Monster with FoM to get FoM at L11. Although most places where FoM really matters are raids where a Cleric is typically available to cast it, it's true it can still help in some quests where you may not have a Cleric with you (e.g. Crucible). And the DQ raid is often short-manned.

    4. Higher Str vs. Con: in my own experience, if you're not going to melee then I find more than 10 Str to be wasted in the long term, even though it may help a bit at low level. Being made helpless should be quite rare with 10 Str on a build who is supposed not to grab aggro, and if it happens, there should be a party member who can use a Lesser Restoration potion on you (worst case scenario, stat damage now regenerates fast enough to not be such a big deal). I agree that if you want to melee / solo at lower level, a higher Str would help, and I mention it in the Variants section.

    5. Drow vs. Human. If someone wants to max Cha, Drow is the way to go. I don't think the extra Con / feat makes Human significantly better (and Human Versatility is not much useful anymore at high level). Although if I were to decide between which is best, I'd say Human, I think they both deserve being in the most recommended races. As a sanity check, the HPs on a L20 Drow would look something like 20 (DDO bonus to everyone) + 120 (6*20 from base Bard HPs) + 140 (24 Con, 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Rage) + 20 (Toughness from Minos Helm) + 10 (GH favor) = 310, which should be enough to stay alive on a character who is not supposed to be an aggro magnet (add +45 with a Shroud item). Even 260 HPs (without Con tome / Minos / GH favor) isn't that bad if you are careful (I wouldn't advise to run Epic quests without investing a bit in gear though).

    6. Enhancements: looks like we agree here I didn't add Music of the Dead / Makers because that would pretty much force me to set the whole enhancements list (doubt there would be many APs left to spend), and I prefer to leave some freedom to players here to customize it a bit to their own liking.

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this! Always good to hear more varied opinions.

  6. #126
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Good luck with Virtuoso of the Sword when you get to it!

    I wouldn't mind seeing Arcane Cannon bumped up the list, but really, whenever you get to it is fine :-)

    Well, up next is the Truthbringer. Good luck with that one, too!

  7. #127
    Community Member Irinis's Avatar
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    Very cool.

    Maximize vs Empower Healing - I understand your reasoning here, definitely a personal choice. That's the beauty of Bards, eh?

    Toughness vs Mental Toughness - having played my gimpy first builds I'd personally rather have the hp to stay alive long enough to throw a scroll than to have more sp to throw a spell to get more hp, in most situations anyway. But then, I'm great at managing to grab aggro when I really shouldn't have it. LOL! Again, a personal choice.
    Please split the class forums into REAL subcategories this is a jumbled mess.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irinis View Post
    Very cool.

    Maximize vs Empower Healing - I understand your reasoning here, definitely a personal choice. That's the beauty of Bards, eh?

    Toughness vs Mental Toughness - having played my gimpy first builds I'd personally rather have the hp to stay alive long enough to throw a scroll than to have more sp to throw a spell to get more hp, in most situations anyway. But then, I'm great at managing to grab aggro when I really shouldn't have it. LOL! Again, a personal choice.
    Actually, regarding HP...

    I'm actually doing the Spellsinger listed here right now, and any troubles I've had with HP I would've had if I had Toughness. The extra SP *really* helps out more than the extra HP would, IMO, even with the Racial Toughness feats.

    I'm two ranks into level 4 and just took my second Song Magic enhancement. And it's not that I'm staying back, either... I'm rushing in with a +1 Longsword and kicking butt, too, without having deviated from this build at all. Then again, my Inspire Courage song makes it so that it's like I've got 14 strength. Granted, I'm not doing as much as the DPS is doing, but I'm contributing nontheless. I'm not using a shield yet (I'll probably buy a Light Mithril Shield soon, though), but you know what? I'm still contributing :-)

    Throwing Heroism on and singing Inspire Courage (and Inspire Competence to the Rogue) to everyone just makes me feel so much happier as a party member. I can actually tell that my buffs are making a difference.

    (Of course, trying to buff a party is like trying to herd cats. It's kinda difficult. I am SO glad Inspire Courage has a large radius)

    So, basically, I'm doing just fine without Toughness :-) When I start taking damage, I back off. Either the Cleric heals me or I chug a potion. If I'm taking too much damage, well... no Toughness feat on earth would be able to really save me, because usually that means I've managed to attract ALL the aggro, which generally means I've somehow wandered off by myself and gotten into deep doodoo.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    And it's not that I'm staying back, either... I'm rushing in with a +1 Longsword and kicking butt, too, without having deviated from this build at all.
    Well, I'm glad you can do this, but just be aware this is not supposed to work for very long.. don't come tell me you can't melee anymore past L5 or something like that

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by tihocan View Post
    Well, I'm glad you can do this, but just be aware this is not supposed to work for very long.. don't come tell me you can't melee anymore past L5 or something like that
    I understand that it won't really work past that point. The more I level, the more specialized I become.

    I'll probably have a potency item of some sort at that point.

    EDIT: An aside note... I've noticed that none of your Wizard or Sorcerer builds have Master's Touch for one of the level 1 spells. According to the Wizards forum, the best way to get experience early on is to throw on Master's Touch and melee with a two-handed weapon.
    Last edited by Zachski; 04-19-2010 at 10:28 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    I'll probably have a potency item of some sort at that point.
    Actually, bards don't get many useful damage spells, so devotion is all you need. Then later on, spell penetration.

  12. #132
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    By the way, as a level 4 Spellsinger, I just found a nice cheap robe that gives True Neutral characters +2 AC and +2 to all saves.

    Is this worth using over a +1 Chain Shirt, or should I assume my role as support caster now?

    EDIT: Scratch that. I just found a Robe that has Lesser Acid Guard (1d4 Acid damage to anything that touches me) and also has the Command suffix, which gives me a +2 competence bonus to all of my Charisma-based skill checks. It's like I have Inspire Competence on me at all times! Not to mention with 2 more UMD, I can use Re...

    Oh yeah, that's right.

    I actually main-healed two quests on Elite using nothing but wands and my own spells. I bought two CLW wands and two Repair Light Damage wand. The Warforged in the party smiled when I mentioned the repair wands. The Sorcerer also brought RLD wands. And I had a blast. I didn't actually get to do much Soundburst, but hey, our party survived... mostly. Well, a couple of party members died, but we managed to win both quests. One was Captives (easy for me to main heal, and I felt great about it afterwards) and the other was irestone inlet, both of which were on elite. (Irestone Inlet ate up ALL of my CLW charges, and I only had one RLD wand left...)

    Even so, it was a blast. I actually got the robe in Irestone Inlet, and slapped it on when I saw the Command suffix. I didn't immediately realize that it raised my UMD, but I'm pretty sure the Warforged was subconsciously happier about it.

    By the way, there was absolutely no Clerics or FVS in the party. Me and another Bard were the only healing the entire party had, and... well, the other bard seemed more interested in scouting than actually healing.

    Ah well.

    I just wish I was a little more agile with my wand-whipping. It's annoying to have to heal a Warforged, then switch to a Cure wand for a fleshie, then back to the Repair wand, but I'll get used to it :-)

    I'm definitely loving the support role, but I'm never doing Irestone Inlet again on a healer unless there's another healer to actualyl back me up.
    Last edited by Zachski; 04-20-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  13. #133
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    Smile

    It would've been great if you could dual-wield wands, eh? :P

    Anyway, posting to jump in the "tihocan appreciation" bandwagon. Two of my toons are using these revised builds, and so far, they rock at their roles. However, I noticed that you're asking human Flames of Justice to take the Extend Spell feat twice (L3, L12). Which one would be correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaneDitto View Post
    However, I noticed that you're asking human Flames of Justice to take the Extend Spell feat twice (L3, L12). Which one would be correct?
    Thanks for spotting this, you only get 1 feat at L12, so the correct time to pick Extend is L6.

  15. #135
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    Oh, one thing... about the Tempest Ranger...

    You have Ranger Dexterity I listed, but the game says that Tempest II requires Ranger Dexterity II.

    I forget if this was addressed already or not, just saying.

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    These guides have been very helpful so thank you Tihocan for all the work!

    I am a long time WoW player who is ready for something a little different. I downloaded last night and installed this morning before work. I am getting ready for my first build this evening.

    I grew up on DnD, LOVE DnD, but am slightly removed. Majority of my time was with the Dark Sun series (shattered land and wake of the ravager). I did play Baldurs Gate for a little while.

    Anyway, my question is how to determine which level you should multi class into another class? What are the benefits and where can I find them. I will likely start with one of your builds until I get familar with the game, but intend on creating a completely new class after re-engaging with DnD. Just wondering why you use level 2 for a different class then go back to the original through 20.

    Thanks!

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    Default The Truthbringer

    The Truthbringer (L20 Paladin)

    Concept: Dual-wielding Paladin with good offense, and decent defense in Sword & Board mode
    Original path's flaws: Wis higher than necessary, some wasted feats (multiple Toughness, Weapon Focus), relying on Sword & Board for damage output instead of dual wielding
    Main fixes: Converted to a Two-Weapon Fighting build for much better offensive abilities, leaving the ability to switch to Sword & Board when mitigating damage is necessary

    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

    Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
    ........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
    .Str.....15......14/15.......15........14........14........14....
    .Dex.....16........16........16........16........16........16....
    .Con.....11........13......11/12.......13........13........13....
    .Int.....10........8.........8.........8.........8.........8.....
    .Wis.....9.........9........9/10.......9.........9.........9.....
    .Cha.....17......13/14.....15/16.....14/16.....14/16.....12/14...

    Ability increase every 4 levels: If you cannot get a +1 Dex tome to qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at L6, spend your L4 point into Dex. If your starting Cha was 16 or less, spend your L20 point into Cha. All other points should go into Str (for a total of +3 to +5 Str depending on these conditions).

    Skills, except Human and Drow: Max out UMD.
    Skills, Human and Drow: At character creation, max out UMD, get one rank (two skill points) in Tumble, and spend the rest into Balance. On further levels, keep UMD maxed out and spend extra points into Balance.

    Feats (by level), Drow and Elf: Toughness (1), Two-Weapon Fighting (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Pierce (9), Extend (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Power Attack (18)
    Feats (by level), Dwarf and Halfling: Toughness (1), Two-Weapon Fighting (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Slash (9), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Power Attack (18)
    Feats (by level), Human: Toughness (1), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (1), Two-Weapon Fighting (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Slash (9), Extend (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Power Attack (18)
    Feats (by level), Warforged: Adamantine Body (1), Two-Weapon Fighting (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Slash (9), Toughness (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Power Attack (18)

    For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
    Enhancements (Paladin): Charisma I, Devotion II, Divine Light II, Divine Might IV (or highest tier you can get), Divine Sacrifice II, Energy of the Templar I, Exalted Smite II, Extra Lay on Hands II, Extra Smite Evil III, Extra Turning III, Follower of the Sovereign Host (except Warforged), Hunter of the Dead III, Improved Turning III, Toughness II, Unyielding Sovereignty (except Warforged), Weapons of Good (capstone)
    Enhancements (Drow): Melee Attack I, Melee Damage I, Racial Toughness II
    Enhancements (Dwarf): Constitution I, Racial Toughness II
    Enhancements (Elf): Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I, Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I, Racial Toughness II
    Enhancements (Halfling): Cunning I, Guile I, Racial Toughness II
    Enhancements (Human): Adaptability Strength I, Improved Recovery I, Racial Toughness II
    Enhancements (Warforged): Bladesworn Transformation, Constitution I, Follower of the Lord of Blades, Healer's Friend I, Racial Toughness II

    Soloability by level:

    No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20


    Tips:
    - Contrary to the original build, you will be mostly dual wielding weapons rather than systematically using a shield: when you want to kill enemies fast, use two weapons. If you need better defense, you should be able to maintain a good enough Armor Class (for most of the game) when switching to Sword & Board (at the highest levels however, you will likely find yourself mostly in offensive mode, as it is difficult to reach good AC without a more specialized build and rare gear).
    - At L1-2, use a one-handed weapon with a shield. At L3+ you can dual wield weapons. Drow and Elf should use a Rapier in main hand, and a shortsword in off-hand (you may wield two rapiers once you see you can hit reliably and can afford the extra -2 to-hit penalty due to using a non light off-hand weapon). Human should use a Khopesh in main hand, and any light (and Slashing at L9+) weapon in off-hand (similarly, you may wield two khopeshes once the -2 to-hit penalty is not an issue). Other races can start with any weapon combination as long as the off-hand is light, using slashing weapons at L9+ and Khopesh at L12+ (except Warforged that does not get the Khopesh proficiency in the proposed build, but see the variant below if you want it).
    - Once you reach L14, keep the Holy Sword spell memorized (grab components at House Jorasco's Apothecary). This powerful weapon will be quite useful (especially against some monsters with Damage Reduction), until you can find / craft even better ones.
    - You may start using healing wands at L1, even if you are not able to cast any spell yet.
    - Remember that you need a Wis of at least (10 + spell level) to cast a spell. You can use items, enhancements, tomes and the Owl's Wisdom spell (available on potions / wands / clickies) to meet this requirement.
    - Paladins can start casting spells at L4, but receive very few base spell points to do so. Use items giving bonus spell points ('of Power', 'of Wizardry') and increase your Wis (for bonus spell points) so as to get a larger spell point pool.
    - Read Junts' excellent paladin guide here, especially the parts about important buffs and how to use your special attacks.

    Variants:
    - This build follows the Hunter of the Dead prestige enhancement line, but if you want to maximize your offensive abilities, particularly against the many Evil Outsiders threatening Stormreach, you can go for Knight of the Chalice instead, picking Paladin enhancements from The Flame of Justice path.
    - The proposed Elf version uses rapiers only because it made it easier to "combine" it with the Drow, for presentation purpose. But it is just as good to use scimitars instead (switching the Pierce feats for Slash, and the Aerenal enhancements for the Valenar ones). Initially use a Kukri in your off-hand at lower levels until you can hit reliably enough (then you can switch to dual scimitars).
    - The proposed Warforged version takes Adamantine Body at L1 to stay in the spirit of the build that requires some decent defensive ability. However, once you are high level, as mentioned above it will be difficult to really get good AC, so that Adamantine Body may not be useful anymore. You can then choose to respec it for Khopesh proficiency for instance. You can also choose not to take it at all, using the same feat progression as Dwarf and Halfling (though this will make you more vulnerable at low levels).
    - If you can get a +2 Dex tome, you may start with 15 Dex (increasing either Str, Con or Cha), relying on your tome to reach 17 Dex (pre-requisite for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). Since +2 tomes are Minimum Level 7, you will not be able to pick Improved TWF at L6. Get the feat planned for L12 instead, and either respec it into Improved TWF after using your +2 Dex tome (note: this trick may not be possible anymore), or just shift feats (taking Improved TWF at L9, and following the same feat progression from there, recovering the originally planned feat setup at L12).
    - A more min/max approach would start with 8 Wis to increase for instance Con. This was not done here as it may be difficult for new players without access to tomes to find a +3 Wis item early enough in the game, thus being unable to cast spells for too long. But in the long term, 8 Wis would be better.
    - UMD is the most useful long-term skill, but if you are more worried about short-term ease-of play on a non Human or Drow, you can instead get one rank in Tumble and spend your other points into Balance. If you happen to have a +2 Int tome you can use at L7, then start with the rank in Tumble and the other points in Balance, then after using your tome, spend all points into UMD until it is maxed out (and then keep it maxed and spend your last few points into Balance).
    - The reasoning for spending some level-up point(s) into Cha on some builds is to try and get access to a higher rank of Divine Might. You can decide to spend more or less points to increase Cha depending on your own preferences, keeping in mind that if you let your Str lag behind too much, you may have trouble hitting monsters (but damage-wise, investing in Cha for Divine Might gives higher benefit than increasing damage through Str). The four tiers of Divine Might require respectively 14, 16, 18 and 20 Cha (counting only base score and tomes), and you can count at least on a +2 Cha tome (easy enough to get at high level, while +3 require some significant raid grind, and +4 a lot of griding and luck).
    - An Elf may prefer to initially pick the Follower of the Undying Court and Undying Call enhancements instead of Follower of the Sovereign Host and Unyielding Sovereignty (similarly, a Drow may pick Follower of Vulkoor and Vulkoor's Avatar). However, at higher levels the Sovereign enhancements are more useful, and you should reset your enhancements to switch to these (unless you are an Elf without UMD and no other way to raise dead).
    - This build is close in spirit to the Storm of Kargon (Barbarian) and Whirlwind Fighter paths. There is no real "best" when comparing one to each other, so go with the class that appeals to you most! To give a rough idea of the main differences, in terms of self-sufficiency and defensive potential, Paladin >> Fighter > Barbarian, while in terms of sustained damage, Barbarian > Fighter > Paladin. The Paladin playstyle is also more "active" (there are more short-term buffs and special abilities to keep track of).

    Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red
    Last edited by tihocan; 10-18-2010 at 09:51 AM.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Oh, one thing... about the Tempest Ranger...

    You have Ranger Dexterity I listed, but the game says that Tempest II requires Ranger Dexterity II.

    I forget if this was addressed already or not, just saying.
    Thanks. Funnily enough, I originally had Dexterity II, then forgot it was a prereq, and later I thought "hmm this is a Str-based build, Dex I is enough!" so I removed it

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by fogelbee View Post
    Anyway, my question is how to determine which level you should multi class into another class? What are the benefits and where can I find them. I will likely start with one of your builds until I get familar with the game, but intend on creating a completely new class after re-engaging with DnD. Just wondering why you use level 2 for a different class then go back to the original through 20.
    That's a complex question. There may be guides to multiclassing floating around, but I don't have any link for that. So I'll keep it short and give you some general guidelines:
    - the class with highest number of skill points should come first, because the number of skill points at character creation is multiplied by 4
    - some classes may allow you to "catch up" on skill points, in which case it matters when you take them (too early = you are wasting skill points, too late = you cannot catch up), this happens mostly when taking rogue levels for traps
    - when splashing a class you often want to do it early to benefit from it sooner (e.g. evasion with 2 levels of rogue, martial proficiencies with a splash of fighter,TWF with 2 levels of ranger, ...)
    - some classes give you bonus feats that may allow you to take feats at "unusual" levels, so for instance by taking Fighter at L20 on a Wizard 18/Fighter 1 build, you can quality for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (that requires BAB 11), which is the only way to get it while splashing only two levels of something else
    - in the end, it often doesn't matter that much

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tihocan View Post
    That's a complex question. There may be guides to multiclassing floating around, but I don't have any link for that. So I'll keep it short and give you some general guidelines:
    - the class with highest number of skill points should come first, because the number of skill points at character creation is multiplied by 4
    - some classes may allow you to "catch up" on skill points, in which case it matters when you take them (too early = you are wasting skill points, too late = you cannot catch up), this happens mostly when taking rogue levels for traps
    - when splashing a class you often want to do it early to benefit from it sooner (e.g. evasion with 2 levels of rogue, martial proficiencies with a splash of fighter,TWF with 2 levels of ranger, ...)
    - some classes give you bonus feats that may allow you to take feats at "unusual" levels, so for instance by taking Fighter at L20 on a Wizard 18/Fighter 1 build, you can quality for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (that requires BAB 11), which is the only way to get it while splashing only two levels of something else
    - in the end, it often doesn't matter that much
    These are good general guidelines to multiclassing, which is indeed quite complex. It's useful to examine what you're gaining and what you're losing by taking X levels of a second (or third) class over staying pure.

    There are several good sources of info on the subject around, some a bit older than others. However nowhere is there a comprehensive breakdown guide of every possible benefit or consideration for multiclassing, since it's such a complex subject.

    mediocresurgeon has one of the most complete guides to multiclassing I've seen at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203587 . (Note that it was written before Monk 1 was changed to grant the first tier of stances automatically).

    Aranticus has an old guide up at http://ddowiki.com/page/How_I_Build_My_Toons which is decent (even though it irks me when people refer to their characters as "toons").

    There was an attempt to document the various break levels for each class at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=217370 but it sort of fell by the wayside.

    Some general info is at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2906626 .
    Last edited by FauxSho; 04-23-2010 at 01:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
    You should probably try being just slightly specific.

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