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  1. #1
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Default Epic SoS makes THF king, but it's not barbs who get the throne!

    I ran the numbers for epic SoS in my and A-Os DPS calc, and it turns out that fighters win the DPS race again:

    Here's the results:
    WF pure fighter:
    Full twitch:
    0%: 685 DPS
    50%: 505 DPS
    100%: 325 DPS

    No twitch:
    0%: 511 DPS
    50%: 382 DPS
    100%: 253 DPS

    WF pure barb:
    Full twitch:
    0% fort: 598 DPS
    50% fort: 457 DPS
    100% fort: 315 DPS

    No twitch:
    0%:494 DPS
    50%: 383 DPS
    100%: 272 DPS

    WF pure paladin:
    Twitch:
    0%: 571 DPS
    50%: 464 DPS
    100%: 357 DPS

    No twitch:
    0%: 470 DPS
    50%: 385 DPS
    100%: 300 DPS

    I hope you don't mind if I don't post all 18 calculations, 1 for each build should be enough I think.

    Fighter:
    Code:
    Fgt20 Warforged   Build
    THF-Twitch	Fighting Style
    		Weapon
    Epic SoS		Weapon Type 
    1		Extra Critical Threat Range
    0		Extra Critical Multiplier
    No		<Element> Burst
    No		<Element> Blast
    No		<Alignment> Burst
    No		<Alignment> Blast
    		
    		Prestige Enhancements
    3		Kensai Rank
    0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    0		Knight of the Chalice Rank
    0		Assassin Rank
    		
    		Base Damage
    14		Weapon base damage
    10		Weapon modifier
    54		Strength
    33		Total strength damage
    16		Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
    0		Litany
    2		Frenzied berserker set
    2		Shintao monk set
    0		Racial damage enhancement
    2		Fighter damage enhancements
    4		Kensai Damage
    4		Weapon specialization
    0		Monk True Reincarnation
    0		Favored enemy
    0		Ram's might 
    0		Divine favor
    0		Divine might
    9		Song
    1		Prayer
    No		Bladesworn
    97		Total Base
    		    
    		Sneak attack
    0		Rogue levels
    0		SA enhancements
    0		Item
    0		Halfling
    0		Rogue True Reincarnation
    0		Total
    		
    		Effects
    0		<Alignment>
    0		<Element>
    0		Tempest set
    0		Henshin monk set
    0		Sneak attack
    0		Frenzied Berserker vicious
    0		Knight of the Chalice EO damage
    0		Paladin Capstone
    0		Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
    0		Slicing
    0		Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
    1		Force ritual
    1		Effects Total
    98		Total Base With Effects
    		
    		Glancing Blows
    No		Barbarian Capstone
    3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
    3		Kensai Rank
    0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    42,33		Base Damage
    0		Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
    0,3		Effects
    1		Number of targets hit by glancings
    20,25		Average Damage Per Hit
    		
    		Critical Hits
    8		Seeker from item
    7		Critical threat range
    4		Critical multiplier
    388		Base critical damage
    1		Effects
    0		<Element> Burst
    0		<Element> Blast
    0		Alignment Burst
    0		Alignment Blast
    0		Natural 20
    64		Total seeker damage
    0		Critical Effects
    453		Critical Total
    		
    0		Attack 1
    118,25		Attack 2
    118,25		Attack 3
    118,25		Attack 4
    118,25		Attack 5
    118,25		Attack 6
    118,25		Attack 7
    118,25		Attack 8
    118,25		Attack 9
    118,25		Attack 10
    118,25		Attack 11
    118,25		Attack 12
    118,25		Attack 13
    473,25		Attack 14
    473,25		Attack 15
    473,25		Attack 16
    473,25		Attack 17
    473,25		Attack 18
    473,25		Attack 19
    473,25		Attack 20
    236,59		Average Damage
    		
    		Monster Immunities
    0		Fortification
    0		Damage reduction
    0		Elemental resistance
    		
    		Relevant Attack Data
    5		Minutes lapsed
    Yes		Madstone
    20		Base Attack Bonus
    5		BAB Tier
    0,62		Unarmed Duration
    0,56		THF-Twitch Duration
    0,67		Armed Duration
    10		Number of haste boosts
    30		Haste boost amount
    10		Competence (Capstone, Tempest, Acrobat)
    0		Insight (Wind stance)
    0		Sacred (zeal)
    0,68		Duration Modifier, Unboosted
    0,48		Duration Modifier, Boosted
    0,56		Base Duration
    1,38		Unboosted Rate Increase
    1,82		Boosted Rate Increase
    0,075		Offset
    0		Extra Smite Rank
    0		Number of Smites
    0		Divine Sacrifice Interval
    		
    		Activations & Feats
    No		Frenzy activation
    No		Death Frenzy activation
    Yes		Power Surge activation
    No		Divine Might activation
    No		TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
    GTHF		THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
    Yes		Quick draw
    		
    6		Loss per minute due to activations
    		
    		Attackspeed
    10		Number of haste boosts used
    107,18		Normal
    147,56		Haste/ Other
    195,36		Haste/ Other/ Boost
    868,83		Total Amount of Attacks
    		
    205556,01	Total Damage
    41111,2		Damage/M
    685,19		Damage/S
    685,19		Damage Per Second
    Barb:
    Code:
    Brb 20	Warforged	Build
    THF-Twitch	THF-Twitch	Fighting Style
    		Weapon
    Epic SoS	Epic SoS	Weapon Type (Green steel)
    0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
    3	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
    No	No	<Element> Burst
    No	No	<Element> Blast
    No	No	<Alignment> Burst
    No	No	<Alignment> Blast
    		
    		Prestige Enhancements
    0		Kensai Rank
    3		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    0		Knight of the Chalice Rank
    0		Assassin Rank
    		
    		Base Damage
    14	14	Weapon base damage
    10	0	Weapon modifier
    62	0	Strength
    39	0	Total strength damage
    22	0	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
    0	0	Litany
    2	0	Frenzied berserker set
    2	0	Shintao monk set
    0	0	Racial damage enhancement
    0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
    0	0	Kensai Damage
    0	0	Weapon specialization
    0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
    0	0	Favored enemy
    0	0	Ram's might 
    0	0	Divine favor
    0	0	Divine might
    9	0	Song
    1	0	Prayer
    No		Bladesworn
    99	14	Total Base
    		    
    		Sneak attack
    0	0	Rogue levels
    0	0	SA enhancements
    0	0	Item
    0	0	Halfling
    0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
    0	0	Total
    		
    		Effects
    0	0	<Alignment>
    0	0	<Element>
    0	0	Tempest set
    0	0	Henshin monk set
    0	0	Sneak attack
    21	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
    0	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
    0	0	Paladin Capstone
    0	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
    0	0	Slicing
    0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
    1	0	Force ritual
    22	0	Effects Total
    121	14	Total Base With Effects
    		
    		Glancing Blows
    Yes		Barbarian Capstone
    3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
    0		Kensai Rank
    3		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    46,33	0	Base Damage
    21	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
    0,35	0	Effects
    1		Number of targets hit by glancings
    32,15	0	Average Damage Per Hit
    		
    		Critical Hits
    8	0	Seeker from item
    6	6	Critical threat range
    4	4	Critical multiplier
    396	56	Base critical damage
    22	0	Effects
    0	0	<Element> Burst
    0	0	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    32	56	Total seeker damage
    0	0	Critical Effects
    450	112	Critical Total
    		
    0	0	Attack 1
    153,15	14	Attack 2
    153,15	14	Attack 3
    153,15	14	Attack 4
    153,15	14	Attack 5
    153,15	14	Attack 6
    153,15	14	Attack 7
    153,15	14	Attack 8
    153,15	14	Attack 9
    153,15	14	Attack 10
    153,15	14	Attack 11
    153,15	14	Attack 12
    153,15	14	Attack 13
    153,15	14	Attack 14
    482,15	112	Attack 15
    482,15	112	Attack 16
    482,15	112	Attack 17
    482,15	112	Attack 18
    803,15	112	Attack 19
    803,15	112	Attack 20
    276,29	42,7	Average Damage
    		
    		Monster Immunities
    0	0	Fortification
    0	0	Damage reduction
    0	0	Elemental resistance
    		
    		Relevant Attack Data
    5	0	Minutes lapsed
    Yes		Madstone
    20	0	Base Attack Bonus
    5	1	BAB Tier
    0,62	0,66	Unarmed Duration
    0,56	0,6	THF-Twitch Duration
    0,67	0,72	Armed Duration
    0	0	Number of haste boosts
    0	0	Haste boost amount
    0	0	Competence (Capstone, Tempest, Acrobat)
    0	0	Insight (Wind stance)
    0	0	Sacred (zeal)
    0,76	0,81	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
    0,76	0,81	Duration Modifier, Boosted
    0,56	0,6	Base Duration
    1,26	1,2	Unboosted Rate Increase
    1,26	1,2	Boosted Rate Increase
    0,075	0,075	Offset
    0	0	Extra Smite Rank
    0	0	Number of Smites
    0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
    		
    		Activations & Feats
    Yes	Yes	Frenzy activation
    Yes	Yes	Death Frenzy activation
    No	No	Power Surge activation
    No	No	Divine Might activation
    None	None	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
    GTHF	GTHF	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
    No	No	Quick draw
    		
    24	24	Loss per minute due to activations
    		
    		Attackspeed
    0	0	Number of haste boosts used
    107,18	0	Normal
    135,3	0	Haste/ Other
    135,3	0	Haste/ Other/ Boost
    649,46	0	Total Amount of Attacks
    		
    179439,59	0	Total Damage
    35887,92		Damage/M
    598,13	0	Damage/S
    598,13		Damage Per Second
    
    		
    		Special
    		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
    8	0	Seeker
    7	0	Critical multiplier
    693	0	Base critical damage
    22	0	Effects
    0	0	<Element> Burst
    0	0	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    56	0	Total seeker damage
    0	0	Critical Effects
    771	0	Critical Total
    Paladin:
    Code:
    Pal 20	Warforged	Build
    THF-Twitch	THF-Twitch	Fighting Style
    		Weapon
    Epic SoS	Epic SoS	Weapon Type (Green steel)
    0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
    0	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
    No	Yes	<Element> Burst
    No	Yes	<Element> Blast
    No	No	<Alignment> Burst
    No	No	<Alignment> Blast
    		
    		Prestige Enhancements
    0		Kensai Rank
    0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    3		Knight of the Chalice Rank
    0		Assassin Rank
    		
    		Base Damage
    14	14	Weapon base damage
    10	0	Weapon modifier
    42	0	Strength
    24	0	Total strength damage
    16	0	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
    0	0	Litany
    0	0	Frenzied berserker set
    2	0	Shintao monk set
    0	0	Racial damage enhancement
    0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
    0	0	Kensai Damage
    0	0	Weapon specialization
    0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
    0	0	Favored enemy
    0	0	Ram's might 
    3	0	Divine favor
    6	0	Divine might
    9	0	Song
    0	0	Prayer
    Yes		Bladesworn
    86,76	14	Total Base
    		    
    		Sneak attack
    0	0	Rogue levels
    0	0	SA enhancements
    0	0	Item
    0	0	Halfling
    0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
    0	0	Total
    		
    		Effects
    7	7	<Alignment>
    3,5	3,5	<Element>
    0	0	Tempest set
    0	0	Henshin monk set
    0	0	Sneak attack
    0	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
    14	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
    10,5	0	Paladin Capstone
    10,5	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
    0	2,5	Slicing
    0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
    1	1	Force ritual
    46,5	14	Effects Total
    133,26	28	Total Base With Effects
    		
    		Glancing Blows
    No		Barbarian Capstone
    3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
    0		Kensai Rank
    0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
    38,92	0	Base Damage
    35	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
    1,73	0	Effects
    1		Number of targets hit by glancings
    35,93	0	Average Damage Per Hit
    		
    		Critical Hits
    8	0	Seeker from item
    6	6	Critical threat range
    4	4	Critical multiplier
    347,04	56	Base critical damage
    46,5	14	Effects
    0	16,5	<Element> Burst
    0	16,5	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    32	56	Total seeker damage
    0	33	Critical Effects
    425,54	159	Critical Total
    		
    0	0	Attack 1
    169,19	28	Attack 2
    169,19	28	Attack 3
    169,19	28	Attack 4
    169,19	28	Attack 5
    169,19	28	Attack 6
    169,19	28	Attack 7
    169,19	28	Attack 8
    169,19	28	Attack 9
    169,19	28	Attack 10
    169,19	28	Attack 11
    169,19	28	Attack 12
    169,19	28	Attack 13
    169,19	28	Attack 14
    461,47	159	Attack 15
    461,47	159	Attack 16
    461,47	159	Attack 17
    461,47	159	Attack 18
    461,47	159	Attack 19
    461,47	159	Attack 20
    248,42	65,9	Average Damage
    		
    		Monster Immunities
    0	0	Fortification
    0	0	Damage reduction
    0	0	Elemental resistance
    		
    		Relevant Attack Data
    5	0	Minutes lapsed
    No		Madstone
    20	0	Base Attack Bonus
    5	1	BAB Tier
    0,62	0,66	Unarmed Duration
    0,56	0,6	THF-Twitch Duration
    0,67	0,72	Armed Duration
    0	0	Number of haste boosts
    0	0	Haste boost amount
    0	0	Competence (Capstone, Tempest, Acrobat)
    0	0	Insight (Wind stance)
    10	10	Sacred (zeal)
    0,73	0,73	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
    0,73	0,73	Duration Modifier, Boosted
    0,56	0,6	Base Duration
    1,31	1,31	Unboosted Rate Increase
    1,31	1,31	Boosted Rate Increase
    0,075	0,075	Offset
    4	4	Extra Smite Rank
    12	12	Number of Smites
    3	3	Divine Sacrifice Interval
    		
    		Activations & Feats
    No	No	Frenzy activation
    No	No	Death Frenzy activation
    No	No	Power Surge activation
    Yes	Yes	Divine Might activation
    No	No	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
    GTHF	GTHF	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
    No	No	Quick draw
    		
    30	30	Loss per minute due to activations
    		
    		Attackspeed
    0	0	Number of haste boosts used
    107,18	0	Normal
    140,41	0	Haste/ Other
    140,41	0	Haste/ Other/ Boost
    666,93	0	Total Amount of Attacks
    		
    171321,47	-790,8	Total Damage
    34106,13		Damage/M
    571,07	0	Damage/S
    571,07		Damage Per Second
    Pal 20	Warforged	Build
    		
    		Special
    		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
    0	0	Seeker
    0	0	Critical multiplier
    0	0	Base critical damage
    0	0	Effects
    0	0	<Element> Burst
    0	0	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    0	0	Total seeker damage
    0	0	Critical Effects
    0	0	Critical Total
    		
    		Exalted Smite
    20	0	Paladin levels
    4	0	Exalted smite rank (6, 10, 14, 18)
    67	0	Extra smite damage
    		
    		Smite Critical Hits
    8	0	Seeker
    8	0	Critical threat range
    6	0	Critical multiplier
    922,56	0	Base critical damage
    46,5	0	Effects
    0	0	<Element> Burst
    0	0	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    48	0	Total seeker damage
    0	0	Critical Effects
    1017,06	0	Critical Total
    516,97	0	Average Smite Damage
    		
    		Divine Sacrifice
    3	0	Divine sacrifice rank (5,12,19)
    31,5	0	Divine sacrifice damage bonus
    		
    		Divine Sacrifice Critical Hit
    8	0	Seeker
    6	0	Critical threat range
    5	0	Critical multiplier
    433,8	0	Base critical damage
    78	0	Effects
    0	0	<Element> Burst
    0	0	<Element> Blast
    0	0	Alignment Burst
    0	0	Alignment Blast
    0	0	Natural 20
    40	0	Total seeker damage
    0	0	Critical Effects
    551,8	0	Critical Total
    272,63	0	Average Divine Sacrifice Damage

    Let me know I i screwed up somewhere or if you want me to calc another class/multiclass.

  2. #2
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Your 100% fort numbers make me doubt the calculation's accuracy...

    The end result of fighters being top is not surprising though, given the increased threat range and huge seeker bonuses.
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  3. #3
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    IBS!

  4. #4
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    There's a few problems here:

    1: you assume an absurdly unrealistic number of temporary buffs for a 5 minute fight

    2: Your attack speed numbers are simply not stacking accurately. Shade claims to get 138 attacks with thf twitch, which is something I personally question a little bit, but even that aside, there's simply no way that even 30% haste boosts add -50 more attacks- to that. Nothing in DDO gets 190 attacks per minute with a two handed weapon. It does -not- happen. All your dps numbers are massively inflated because your swings per minute numbers are incredibly inflated

    3: Equally, what exactly in this game do you use haste boosts against regularly and fight for 5 minutes, against which you can also bypass DR with the sword of shadows? For a paladin, it could bypass dr against demons or devils. For any other user, they're facing 15-30 dr against every raid boss, from 100% fort undead to 50% fort pit fiends. This makes the weapon -much- worse, and its simply misleading to advertise it as though it were useful in a raid situation for a non-paladin.


    Your numbers also lack context because you're comparing it only across classes. Personally, when I ran it I found that SoS gives up around 25% of its total damage against a 50% fort target, since its entire goodness is dependent on critical range.

    I also note that you do a poor job of accounting for effects with 100% proc rates on glancing blows. This really negates the benefit of twitch attack, because you go from a 75% glancing blow rate to a 50%. However, glancing blows dramatically benefit barbarians and paladins, who have tons of guaranteed-proc damage (10d6 for paladins, 6d6 for zerkers) on glancing blows, where fighters have none whatsoever. Glancing blows alone can equal 50-60 additional dps for a paladin and 35-40 for a barbarian. You omit this, but it's pretty important in establishing parity.

    The funny part is that if you're going to use an epic weapon on a paladin silvered, dual epic chaosblades is still substantially better than a sword of shadows.

    There's not a single raid encounter in the game otuside of the one in which you get this weapon (Velah) in which this weapon is in practice superior dps, and it in no way changes who's the dps king unless you're more interested in how much damage you do to random minotaur trash mobs than you are actual monsters that must be slain.

  5. #5
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Your 100% fort numbers make me doubt the calculation's accuracy...

    The end result of fighters being top is not surprising though, given the increased threat range and huge seeker bonuses.
    The fortification calcs are accurate.

    Here's how the attacksequence looks at 100% fort, and it's only the average damage post that is used for the actual DPS calculation later on. And average damage is a very simple calculation, you can see for yourself if it's flawed or not.
    Code:
    	
    Attack 1	   0
    Attack 2	118,25
    Attack 3        118,25
    Attack 4        118,25
    Attack 5	118,25
    Attack 6	118,25
    Attack 7	118,25
    Attack 8	118,25
    Attack 9	118,25
    Attack 10	118,25
    Attack 11	118,25
    Attack 12	118,25
    Attack 13	118,25
    Attack 14	118,25
    Attack 15	118,25
    Attack 16	118,25
    Attack 17	118,25
    Attack 18	118,25
    Attack 19	118,25
    Attack 20	118,25
    Average Damage	112,34
    Yea, but most people will still believe barbs deal most DPS. As usual:P
    Last edited by Aaxeyu; 01-28-2010 at 08:51 AM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Hellmoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    Yea, but most people will still treat DPS calculations as though haste boost lasts forever. As usual:P
    Sorry, I don't have a barb and even I couldn't help it.

    Also, A_O's calculator is miiiles out of whack for attack speeds and attack speed stacking.

  7. #7
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    so in a epic quest context, how realistic is the 5 minute scale? if you up the scale to 10 minutes the fighter won't be on top anymore. boosts < permanent buffs if there is limited shrines and the average quest length getting exceedingly longer with epic content...

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellmoob View Post
    Sorry, I don't have a barb and even I couldn't help it.

    Also, A_O's calculator is miiiles out of whack for attack speeds and attack speed stacking.
    Though you try, know that it's not me you're insulting, as I got the attackspeed numbers from Cforce, and they are very accurate.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Hellmoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Though you try, know that it's not me you're insulting, as I got the attackspeed numbers from Cforce, and they are very accurate.
    No, they're very old.

    While incomplete, the most accurate current attackspeed index is Monkey_Archer's.

    And this isn't an effort to "insult" you, I don't even know you.

  10. #10
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    what hellmoob said, the attack speed numbers you're using are like 3 patches old and hugely inflated

    I have a list that might be more comprehensive than Monkey's thread, though still not complete for every BAB and boost-type combination available.

  11. #11
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    There's a few problems here:

    1: you assume an absurdly unrealistic number of temporary buffs for a 5 minute fight
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    2: Your attack speed numbers are simply not stacking accurately. Shade claims to get 138 attacks with thf twitch, which is something I personally question a little bit, but even that aside, there's simply no way that even 30% haste boosts add -50 more attacks- to that. Nothing in DDO gets 190 attacks per minute with a two handed weapon. It does -not- happen. All your dps numbers are massively inflated because your swings per minute numbers are incredibly inflated
    The calc uses Cforces attackspeed numbers, and the base twitch attackspeed is 135 attacks/minute.
    A fighter with capstone gets 10% + 30% attackspeed increase, and in the way they stack it goes from 135 to 190 during the 20 seconds the boost lasts.

    I do trust Cforces calculations and testing more than your gut feeling in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    3: Equally, what exactly in this game do you use haste boosts against regularly and fight for 5 minutes, against which you can also bypass DR with the sword of shadows? For a paladin, it could bypass dr against demons or devils. For any other user, they're facing 15-30 dr against every raid boss, from 100% fort undead to 50% fort pit fiends. This makes the weapon -much- worse, and its simply misleading to advertise it as though it were useful in a raid situation for a non-paladin.
    In a pure fighters case it makes no difference if it's 1 minute or 5 minutes.

    Yes, it doesn't take all DR, but it can be made Good alinged and take all trash mob DR.
    For raid bosses however, it would take around like 20-50 DR to make a mineral II more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Your numbers also lack context because you're comparing it only across classes. Personally, when I ran it I found that SoS gives up around 25% of its total damage against a 50% fort target, since its entire goodness is dependent on critical range.
    Compare all you want: http://community.codemasters.com/for...-mod-10-a.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I also note that you do a poor job of accounting for effects with 100% proc rates on glancing blows. This really negates the benefit of twitch attack, because you go from a 75% glancing blow rate to a 50%. However, glancing blows dramatically benefit barbarians and paladins, who have tons of guaranteed-proc damage (10d6 for paladins, 6d6 for zerkers) on glancing blows, where fighters have none whatsoever. Glancing blows alone can equal 50-60 additional dps for a paladin and 35-40 for a barbarian. You omit this, but it's pretty important in establishing parity.
    Glancing is counted on every hit, but it's also multiplied with 0.5 for twitching to adjust it. It's simpler that way.
    If you take another look you will see that paladins and barbs get like 50% more damage from glancing blows.

    So, I don't really know what the problem is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    IThe funny part is that if you're going to use an epic weapon on a paladin silvered, dual epic chaosblades is still substantially better than a sword of shadows.

    There's not a single raid encounter in the game otuside of the one in which you get this weapon (Velah) in which this weapon is in practice superior dps, and it in no way changes who's the dps king unless you're more interested in how much damage you do to random minotaur trash mobs than you are actual monsters that must be slain.
    Feel free to back up ANY of your claims with some facts. Try it atleast.
    Last edited by Aaxeyu; 01-28-2010 at 08:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellmoob View Post
    No, they're very old.

    While incomplete, the most accurate current attackspeed index is Monkey_Archer's.

    And this isn't an effort to "insult" you, I don't even know you.
    The ones I use are newer than the ones you linked. Cforce has not posted the ones I use. And they are made after mod 9.2 was released (the patch that changed the numbers).
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  13. #13
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzschlag View Post
    so in a epic quest context, how realistic is the 5 minute scale? if you up the scale to 10 minutes the fighter won't be on top anymore. boosts < permanent buffs if there is limited shrines and the average quest length getting exceedingly longer with epic content...
    Wrong, the fighter will be ahead in a 10 min situation too. 631 DPS to be precise.

    20 minutes: 603 DPS
    30 minutes: 594 DPS
    60 minutes: 585 DPS

  14. #14
    Community Member Hellmoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    The ones I use are newer than the ones you linked. Cforce has not posted the ones I use. And they are made after mod 9.2 was released (the patch that changed the numbers).
    So, um, post them?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellmoob View Post
    So, um, post them?
    Unarmed Duration(0,67-(0,0091*babtier)
    THF-twitch Duration (0,6148-(0,011*babtier)
    Armed Duration(0,7368-(0,0125*babtier)

    Duration modifier UNBOOSTED ((1 -(Competence/100))*(1-(Insight/100))*(1-(Sacred/100))*IF(Madstone="Yes";0,8;0,85)*0,95)
    Duration Modifiers BOOSTED (Duration modifer unboosted*(1-(haste boost amount/100))
    Base Duration(IF(Fighting style="Unarmed";Unarmed Duration;IF(fighting Style="THF-Twitch";THF-twitch duration;Armed Duration))
    Unboosted rate increase (Base duration/(((base duration-(Offset))*Duration mod unboosted)+(offset))
    Boosted rate increase (base duration/(((base duration-(offset))*Duration mod boosted)+(offset)))

    Offset
    THF: 0,225
    TWF: 0,125
    Unarmed: 0,08
    THF-Twitch: 0,075

    If you check the posted calculations you can see these numbers a few lines above the attackspeed.
    Last edited by Absolute-Omniscience; 01-28-2010 at 08:59 AM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    2: Your attack speed numbers are simply not stacking accurately. Shade claims to get 138 attacks with thf twitch, which is something I personally question a little bit, but even that aside, there's simply no way that even 30% haste boosts add -50 more attacks- to that. Nothing in DDO gets 190 attacks per minute with a two handed weapon. It does -not- happen. All your dps numbers are massively inflated because your swings per minute numbers are incredibly inflated
    Shade did post a video showing 136 attacks per minute (with a slight graphics glitch so it may have been 1 or 2 swings faster). Even so I've only managed to get about 130-132... may be a connection issue or something.

    Anyway.. just tested on my pure 20 fighter and hit 150 attacks per minute with madstone. 150 * 1.3 = 195 attacks per minute... given how boosts provide slightly less benefit for THF then S&B or TWF, id say 190 is about accurate.
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    Cool post, thanks!

  18. #18
    Community Member Hellmoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Shade did post a video showing 136 attacks per minute (with a slight graphics glitch so it may have been 1 or 2 swings faster). Even so I've only managed to get about 130-132... may be a connection issue or something.

    Anyway.. just tested on my pure 20 fighter and hit 150 attacks per minute with madstone. 150 * 1.3 = 195 attacks per minute... given how boosts provide slightly less benefit for THF then S&B or TWF, id say 190 is about accurate.
    Doesn't haste boost only have a 66% uptime and a 2swing/activation loss?

  19. #19
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellmoob View Post
    Doesn't haste boost only have a 66% uptime and a 2swing/activation loss?
    The 66% uptime is all accounted for. It's 1.2 sec loss from activation, and only 0.6 sec with quickdraw, and that has also been taken into account in the calcs.

  20. #20
    Community Member Hellmoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    The 66% uptime is all accounted for. It's 1.2 sec loss from activation, and only 0.6 sec with quickdraw, and that has also been taken into account in the calcs.
    I got that, I was referencing M_A's 150*1.3 calculation.

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