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  1. #1
    Community Member cdemeritt's Avatar
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    Default To fix the DDO economy, you must first create one

    After play now for some time, I've noted a couple recurring "complaints & wants". Often these complaints and issues seem independent of each other and offer no solutions when posted, other than just deal with it. However, I believe there is a way to address the issues and bring things together to make them a bit better.

    First the list of complaints I've seen over and over:
    1: The Prices on the Auction House are out of control, please fix this.
    2: There is no real place in game to spend Plat.
    3: We need more storage space
    4: We need Player/guild housing
    5: VIP's need more Perks

    Issue 1: The Auction house. We have had many threads posts and discussions about the prices on the AH. It comes down to the fact I have lots of gold and plat, and when I need something, I pay what I want to get it. Some people feel 8 million gold to be an outrage for Item X, but if I want Item X NOW, and I feel it is worth it to me vs farming said Item, I'll pay. This leads to over inflated prices for many things, even common lowbie gear, but I'm sure I'm not alone in that when I role a new toon, I go to the AH, and with my piles of useless gold, buy my new toon the best of the best, and then dump it on a vendor when I'm done with it (as I don't have the storage to hold onto it). This demand drives the prices up, and supply down. Many have suggested artificial controls to be put in place, to keep people from posting things on the AH with overinflated prices, however, I believe these controls will just drive people underground into private trades, or not to bother at all.

    2: There is no real place in game to spend plat. This issue is acutally I think the core of most of the problem. I can easily make 100-200kpp in a day of hard play (with only 4 raiding toons) my costs for repairs and consumables, usually less that 1kpp. I know this is middle of the road, and someone with 10 capped toons can easily out pace this without a problem. This leads to people having so much money that spending 1 mil gp on a ring of feathers vs the time it takes to farm one is an option, thus driving up the prices on the AH. It has been pointed out many times that the chests pump out gold and plat at a really high rate, but no place to spend it. We really need a deep gold sink.

    3: A lack of storage. yes, with all favor we get 160 storage spaces (100 backpack, 60 bank) however with so much stuff needed, this storage quickly fills up. Especially with stuff that we need for raids such as sigils, dragon essenses, dragonic runes, planer shards, shards of power, etc. etc. My bank accounts are overflowing with "needed" stuff, and my backpacks with what I need to be prepared, that to hold onto lowbie gear for the next toon, that might not be created for months is difficult. Ok, so there are the mules, I, like so many have one too.. mine was a failed toon from my early days that had achieved some favor... however, storing stuff on another charater, while viable, is just a pain.

    4: Player/guild housing : People want this. Some have said "this is dungeons and dragons, not dungeons and dollies", others have said "needless fluff" However, people still want it. and if we implement it with storage capacity, it wont be all "fluff"

    5: VIP perks there really aren't that many perks to being a subscriber. Not saying there are none, just not that many.


    My thought:

    Give use Player housing, but make it more than just needless fluff. The issues listed above will all be adressed in some degree by adding player housing, and this is the Key: By making it a scaleable storage site, for in game gold.

    How:

    first: the basic feature of player housing free for VIP, purchased with TP for F2P.

    The basics: The apartments start at 1 room, and go upto a posh 30 room mansion. to get to your apartment, you step onto one of the teleporter pods, and select the apartment destination, where you come to a long hallway with many doors (all locked with runes, no way to get into) your apartment is at the end of the hall. There is a mailbox, and a vending machine in the hall (to get tavern food), and a teleport pod to return you to the city. While in your apartment, you get Tavern regeneration, and can eat tavern foods, and even set your resurrection bind point. each "room" can hold 10 items, apartments can be any size between 1-30. Things such as bookcases, cabinets, weapons lockers, chests, etc. can be added to increase storage of a specific items (Example: A small bookcase can be added but it takes up 5 inventory slots in a room, however, it can hold 10 stacks of scrolls, tomes, and inscription materials) a jewelery box, same thing takes up 10 slots but can hold 20 ring, necklaces, or trinkets). Gold could be stored in chests, for easier transfer of gold between toons. Various "skins" for apartment footprints could be added as well... (say I rent the 20 room apartment, I could choose it to be a big open loft, the mansion from Sharn's, or some other like layout. The number of "rooms" is more about storage capacity. Oh, and like the real world, you fail to pay your rent, you get locked out. your stuff, placed in a remove only bank...




    The Free base basic Apartment is a 1 bedroom basement apartment (with lowground market view from the window) but gives you a start.

    Upgrade to a 2 room apartment, for a 5000 gp a month rent, you get a better view of the market, as well as a more storage space.

    upgrade to a 10 room apartment will cost you 1 mil gp a month rent, and you get views from the vale, desert or wherever.. (magic windows, you select the view)
    (personally I'd be willing to play 1 mil gp a month for 100 extra storage (more storage with storage items))

    a 20 room mansion will cost you around 10 mil gp

    and a 30 room, 10000kpp

    Some of the higher end stuff sounds outrageous, yet I know people who could pay for 30 room mansion for 1 year right now, and still have money left over.

    All storage items also paid for with ingame gold.

    How would this help? Well items 2, 3 and 4 should be pretty clear. So how will it help the prices on the AH? Well, first I will say that for myself, if I'm paying 1 mil gp a month for rent, I will not as much extra gold to spend, and I'll be less likely to drop 50kpp on an overpriced low level ring of lesser whatever. 2, with increased storage, I'll be more likely to keep the lowbie gear for my next toon, thus reducing the demand, and without my gold funding the prices on the AH, they should in theory drop a bit, and make them easier for new players to afford. Of course there will always be those who will post things for insane prices, but it is likely what you see will be more reasonably priced. Also, there is a "slight" chance you will see more items on the AH... Not sure here, but if worried about making rent, I might be more likely to post stuff on the AH instead of just vendoring it.


    One Side thought as well, A cleric could set up a shrine in their place and use Word of recall to go there, making it a more useful spell...

    This template could then be used to develop guildhalls (with rents paid by guild dues) but not going into this here...
    Last edited by cdemeritt; 12-30-2009 at 01:52 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Mirta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdemeritt View Post
    After play now for some time, I've noted a couple recurring "complaints & wants". Often these complaints and issues seem independent of each other and offer no solutions when posted, other than just deal with it. However, I believe there is a way to address the issues and bring things together to make them a bit better.

    First the list of complaints I've seen over and over:
    1: The Prices on the Auction House are out of control, please fix this.
    2: There is no real place in game to spend Plat.

    tl;dr
    1. There's nothing wrong with the prices on the AH. People buy and sell at these prices all day. The reasons they're so high is because there are only a handful of items that have any monetary value. The rest are just vendor trash.

    2. So the prices on the AH are out of control yet you have no place to spend plat? Anyways...

    We used to have plenty of valuable items to post on the AH. Then they all became bound, or out-of-date by new mobs with immunities and saves. All the best loot in the game is bound. The second best is expensive because those of us with 30mil plat aren't willing to settle for selling our few valuables for chump change. We need some kind of return. Turbine can fix this by adding more valuables that aren't bound and have useful new pre/suffixes. They won't, though, because if they do people will complain about overpowered loot. More.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Fenrisulven6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirta View Post
    1. There's nothing wrong with the prices on the AH. People buy and sell at these prices all day. The reasons they're so high is because there are only a handful of items that have any monetary value.
    Have you looked at the AH recently? On Thelanis, opening bids:

    +1 Holy of Pure Good light mace @ 2.5 million gold. This is not a rare item.

    +1 Seeker of Greater Giant Bane @ 2 mil

    +2 Rapier of Greater Undead Bane @2 mil

    Then check out the lowbie rr items. +5 spot goggles for 1 million. Prob for TRs who are power-leveling and have more plat than they know what to do with. Which reinforces the OPs point.

    The problem is that this behavior puts the AH out of reach of the new player base. Not good for the game.
    Last edited by Fenrisulven6; 12-30-2009 at 07:03 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member DireWolverine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisulven6 View Post
    Have you looked at the AH recently?

    On Thelanis, a +1 Holy of Pure Good light mace @ 2.5 million gold. This is not a rare item.

    Then check out the lowbie rr items. +5 spot goggles for 1 million. Prob for TRs who are power-leveling and have more plat than they know what to do with. Which reinforces the OPs point.

    The problem is that this behavior puts the AH out of reach of the new player base. Not good for the game.
    Meh. I'm a new player, and I haven't noticed the Auction House prices being 'out of reach of the new player base'. So I can't afford the best items... I can generally pick up something that's almost as good and get by with it.

    I spent 3kpp on a pair of +1 Thundering Handwraps of Pure Good today, for my little Monk/Rogue to wear into Delera's Tomb. I don't feel that was excessive. I might have gotten them cheaper if I'd just bid instead of taking the buyout, but I didn't want to wait.

    It just takes a little patience to search through the listings until you find something that will work for you at a price you can afford.

  5. #5
    Community Member Mirta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisulven6 View Post
    Have you looked at the AH recently?
    Nope. I gave up Thelanis to start anew elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisulven6 View Post
    The problem is that this behavior puts the AH out of reach of the new player base. Not good for the game.
    Not true. I've started fresh (deleted all toons and came back) three times. Within a few weeks I had plenty of cash. In fact, I started fresh on Orien a couple weeks ago. Almost up to a million plat already and I've played only a couple hours a day. It's easy to make plat if you try.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Fenrisulven6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirta View Post
    Not true. I've started fresh (deleted all toons and came back) three times.
    Fen: "The problem is that this behavior puts the AH out of reach of the new player base. Not good for the game."

  7. #7
    Community Member Letrii's Avatar
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    The problem is people with more money than sense have driven up prices to point someone that actually needs that item could never afford it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  8. #8
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    i think we all have enough with paying bills to want to see it in the game
    give us mini games to win cosmedic equipments (pimp hat!)
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  9. #9
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    I would like to see people being able to gamble a bit, Like Betting on PvP matches and what not, That would be awesome, and would give people something to spend money on and get Pvp Rolling also. .

    Hell even Regular casino games would be awesome, Pulling up a chair to a Blackjack game or sitting down with a bunch of Guildies playing Texas Hold-Em for your plat would be Freakin Awesome!!!
    Last edited by poonce; 12-31-2009 at 03:51 AM.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Letrii's Avatar
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    This is really wrong game if you want pvp rolling.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  11. #11
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    It doesnt have to be . .
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  12. #12
    Community Member Thailand_Dan's Avatar
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    There are some simple gambling games in the Phoenix Tavern (in the back), on the side of the marketplace bank.

    I think the OP tried to address too many issues at once. I know he said he was tying it together, but they really seem to be separate issues. Guild Housing...ok, good suggestions, but people have been asking for this for quite a while on the forums. Turbine has mentioned they are working on it, and it has seemed to be "a month away" for quite some time. But, it looks like we will eventually get this.

    On the other issue presented, AH pricing, I need to fall on the side of, "What the market will bear". If it is too expensive, don't buy it. Grind for it yourself, or go without those Grundok's Boots on your lowbee. When you mess with pricing in a free market, you cause shortages. If the max an item could be sold for was 100K plat, or lets say 10X's its stated value, you just would not see many items currently priced above that on the AH any more. This is why you never saw w/p rapiers on the AH, because the max price allowed was still low. Think you'll see any Large Scales hit the AH with this price fixing in place? Wow! that solves the problem.

    Every time someone prices something on the AH, they pay a commission on that item to post it. If they get it back, they lose that money. If they want to post it again, the money comes out of the poster's pocket again. Now, if they eventually, get some sucker to pay the inflated price, all those posting fees were worth it. You could tie the fee to the minimum bid price, but we are already paying a 30% commission on the sales price, which is really high. Jacking up the fee to post will just result in less people posting items.

    About 20 years ago, when we were all paying well under a buck for a cup of coffee (with free refills), some guy said, "Hey! I'm going to charge $3 for my coffee". And can you believe, people actually went into this guy's business everyday and paid that $3? Should we have put price fixes in to prevent him from charging so much? If the idiots will pay it, let him make his money.

    If the AH price is too high, IYO, don't buy it. K.I.S.S.

  13. #13
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    The AH and economy would be greatly improved if the 30% fee would be lowered to 5-10%.
    If you only get 70% of what you sell your item for, there are much less incentive to use the AH, and thus making the ingame cash less useful.

    If the AH was generally improved with a search function etc more people will use it and that will make prices more fair.

    So basicly, fix the AH, fix the economy.

  14. #14
    Community Member Stormanne's Avatar
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    My thoughts on the DDO economy is this:

    Bring in housing, both guild and personal. Charge a monthly fee, in game, for both.

    Make real, usable, and trade-capable skill based crafting. Include items for the housing units (chairs, tables, chests, etc.). From there on, a true economy will develop on its own. That was one thing that SWG got right, IMO.

  15. #15
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormanne View Post
    My thoughts on the DDO economy is this:

    Bring in housing, both guild and personal. Charge a monthly fee, in game, for both.

    Make real, usable, and trade-capable skill based crafting. Include items for the housing units (chairs, tables, chests, etc.). From there on, a true economy will develop on its own. That was one thing that SWG got right, IMO.
    like i said, do you REALLY want to deal with another monthly bill?
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  16. #16
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    So your solution to there being nothing useful to buy is to add player housing? It's a money drain sure, but hardly a useful one for anything but storage or cosmetics. How about having more loot in game that is worth while that does not bind? There is a reason why shroud ingredients are used as currency...more crafting items that can be traded or sold would only increase the number of potential items to buy...or actually fixing the random chest loot tables in a variety of ways suggested over the years by various people.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Stormanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    like i said, do you REALLY want to deal with another monthly bill?
    As sad as it is, at least it would be a bill that I would probably never forget to pay, and would always have enough money to cover without worrying about something else...

  18. #18
    Community Member Thailand_Dan's Avatar
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    If they devote the resources to coding housing, and then the servers to keep it running, you can bet you'll get a bill, but it won't be in plat or gold, it will be in RL dollars. First, it has been shown to be wanted by the playerbase, so people will pay for it. Secondly, I can't see Turbine devoting resources both in creating it, and ongoing support of it, if the only return they get is in-game currency which does nothing for them. Think about it. Since DDO:EU went live, what has been introduced for in-game currency? Nothing. Everything has required TPs. I'm not complaining, I'm just stating what I think should be obvious.

  19. #19
    Community Member cdemeritt's Avatar
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    I must say I found many of the responses to be interesting. However, I think either you mis-understood me, or I didn't explain myself clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thailand_Dan View Post
    AH pricing, I need to fall on the side of, "What the market will bear"
    Agreed 100%. I have actually said the same thing in other posts. The prices reflect what the market will bear, and other than adding a better search, there is nothing wrong with the AH. What I was getting at is that if people had another place to spend their money, AH prices will naturally come down. I DO NOT want to see artificial caps or market limiting on the AH.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mirta View Post
    1. There's nothing wrong with the prices on the AH. People buy and sell at these prices all day. The reasons they're so high is because there are only a handful of items that have any monetary value. The rest are just vendor trash. agreed, however, if people didn't have as much free cash, the prices would come down some.

    2. So the prices on the AH are out of control yet you have no place to spend plat? Anyways...
    ok, easy to see how you might think this is my position... however, It's not... I was taking several posts I've seen lately, and offering what I think could work. I buy what I want, pass on what I don't


    We used to have plenty of valuable items to post on the AH. Then they all became bound, or out-of-date by new mobs with immunities and saves. All the best loot in the game is bound. The second best is expensive because those of us with 30mil plat aren't willing to settle for selling our few valuables for chump change. We need some kind of return. Turbine can fix this by adding more valuables that aren't bound and have useful new pre/suffixes. They won't, though, because if they do people will complain about overpowered loot. More. I don't think adding new or unbinding things will have much affect on AH pricing, however, I do think it is rather silly that they bind so much gear. my thought is unless it is raid gear, it should be unbound. I don't get why my crimson gemstone from TR, which was outgrown by level 6 or 7, couldn't be passed on to someone else. If they wanted you to run the quest at least once, then these rewards should be static vs random. (nothing like running TR 6 times to try and get a crimson Gemstone, just to level past it without getting it....) however, this is a different subject, and Thankfully Turbine did change this some.




    Quote Originally Posted by Letrii View Post
    The problem is people with more money than sense have driven up prices to point someone that actually needs that item could never afford it.
    This... to a point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thailand_Dan View Post
    I think the OP tried to address too many issues at once. I know he said he was tying it together, but they really seem to be separate issues. Guild Housing...ok, good suggestions, but people have been asking for this for quite a while on the forums. Turbine has mentioned they are working on it, and it has seemed to be "a month away" for quite some time. But, it looks like we will eventually get this.

    On the other issue presented, AH pricing, I need to fall on the side of, "What the market will bear". If it is too expensive, don't buy it. Grind for it yourself, or go without those Grundok's Boots on your lowbee. When you mess with pricing in a free market, you cause shortages. If the max an item could be sold for was 100K plat, or lets say 10X's its stated value, you just would not see many items currently priced above that on the AH any more. This is why you never saw w/p rapiers on the AH, because the max price allowed was still low. Think you'll see any Large Scales hit the AH with this price fixing in place? Wow! that solves the problem. I never asked for price fixing in any way shape or form, and think it would be very bad... If I want to pay 6 mil gp for a Lg devil scale, as it is the last item I need for my Min II weapon, that I'll be going into the shroud to craft in 5 minutes, I think I should be able to.

    Every time someone prices something on the AH, they pay a commission on that item to post it. If they get it back, they lose that money. If they want to post it again, the money comes out of the poster's pocket again. Now, if they eventually, get some sucker to pay the inflated price, all those posting fees were worth it. You could tie the fee to the minimum bid price, but we are already paying a 30% commission on the sales price, which is really high. Jacking up the fee to post will just result in less people posting items. an iteresting thought...



    If the AH price is too high, IYO, don't buy it. K.I.S.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    So your solution to there being nothing useful to buy is to add player housing? It's a money drain sure, but hardly a useful one for anything but storage or cosmetics. How about having more loot in game that is worth while that does not bind? There is a reason why shroud ingredients are used as currency...more crafting items that can be traded or sold would only increase the number of potential items to buy...or actually fixing the random chest loot tables in a variety of ways suggested over the years by various people. if you find 2-4X your current storage not useful or worthwhile... well this option isn't for you... however, I think many would find extra storage very useful. Also it would add an additional dimension to the game, that myself, and others would find enjoyable, yet would not interfere with your ability to play or enjoy yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    i think we all have enough with paying bills to want to see it in the game
    There is nothing saying you have to even use this feature.... not like it is required to raid flag. Myself, this would be worth it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thailand_Dan View Post
    If they devote the resources to coding housing, and then the servers to keep it running, you can bet you'll get a bill, but it won't be in plat or gold, it will be in RL dollars. First, it has been shown to be wanted by the playerbase, so people will pay for it. Secondly, I can't see Turbine devoting resources both in creating it, and ongoing support of it, if the only return they get is in-game currency which does nothing for them. Think about it. Since DDO:EU went live, what has been introduced for in-game currency? Nothing. Everything has required TPs. I'm not complaining, I'm just stating what I think should be obvious.
    Yes, ingame currency has no value to turbine. Maybe you missed it in my initial wall of text where I mentioned it would need to be unlocked via TP of F2P people, like the shared bank (which is Free for VIP). Yet people will pay real cash for this, if it is a one time fee(and yes I'm one of them, just like I plan on purchasing the shared bank at some point.). However, if they make it a RL cash rent, then I would not use it. I don't believe Turbine is stupid, (maybe a bit delusional at times, but not stupid) If you think this would have a recurrent cash purchase, then why do adventure packs not expire or even need to be re-purchased on different servers? Also, yes, Turbine has pulled a couple shady tricks with the DDO store, but as yet, you can still play the game without it. Any raid/quest that you need something from the store in order to complete, will be a raid/quest I do not do.
    (Say): Haywire says, '"Hey, I don't come into yer home and play with things."'

  20. #20
    Community Member LunaCee's Avatar
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    Honestly... Just create a new area that can be gotten to from the marketplace.

    The Stormreach Emporium, serving adventurers since (insert date here)

    New special type of broker vendors to be spaced out in the new area. One doesn't sell anything to them. They have limited stock and roughly once an hour or once a certain percentage of their stock has sold refresh their inventory with a "new" selection of randomly rolled items of the correct level for the vendor. These would give players new and old a place where they *might* find a steal and would undercut the AH price if somebody could with enough patience within a week or two get that perfect weapon from checking up on the vendors.

    Also for those of you that know of Masei's little shop out in Zawabi's Refuge. Create something similar but have it work off of in-game currency only. Effectively its a gambling shop, tell the NPC how much you want to gamble and get a randomized list of loot you can choose one of. Very high gamble prices give one a very good chance at desired modifier combination and rarer named loots. When you cannot find what you want on the AH and have cash to burn to find that Wounding of Puncturing or Holy Burst of Greater Evil Outside Bane one could wander on over and burn millions on gambles to get what they want. (Or at least something they can toss up on the AH to recoup some of their losses!)

    Deep gold sink accomplished, players feel happy because they have been given an option OTHER than the Auction House to find something good. And economy stabilizes at a lower level as the people with money and nothing to spend it on can now gamble it away for loot.

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