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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    That can be true for any portion of the game.
    Yes, obviously. I don't see why you feel the need to point that out...
    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    That's power gamer talk. The rest of the raid is irrelevant, it's only the end boss that matters.
    Your continuous need to label, demonize and belittle others is certainly amusing.

    Anyhow, you're missing the point that was being made: VoN would be poorly received because a significant part of the raid is bland, anti-climatic and boring. It has nothing to do with "powergamer talk" or being the end boss. It could have been another part of the raid that sucked and the criticism would have been the same.

    Actually, let me do just that:
    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    [...] but VoN5 (which I would consider part of the raid) is fun, and gets most everyone involved.
    A lot of the time, less than six players have things to do. At the very least, there is not enough things to do to keep twelve players busy all at once. Then, there is silly obstacles like the runes/levers that require certain score which were never really good design either (and which is why we've never seen those in latter raids).

    Vault of the Night was DDO's second raid, and it shows. It had several design flaws and that is why it would be poorly received.
    Last edited by Borror0; 12-19-2009 at 03:41 PM.
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  2. #122
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    then what do you consider a good raid, irrelevant of what kind of loot is in there?

    If you have 5+ characters each with 2000+ favor I could see saying there is not much left to do from a replayablility (fun) point of view (and i'm not talking about just get an alt to open elite for me kind of favor). However, for most hardcore gamers that is probably not the case. It's the fact that they choose to disregard 3/4 or more of the content based on factors other than replayability (fun), and rerun the other 1/4 to death, that leaves them "nothing to do".

    I'm not belittling them, but they should realize that no company would ever be able to keep up with that kind of demand.
    Last edited by krud; 12-19-2009 at 04:18 PM.
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  3. #123
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    then what do you consider a good raid, irrelevant of what kind of loot is in there?

    If you have 5+ characters each with 2000+ favor I could see saying there is not much left to do from a replayablility point of view (and i'm not talking about just get an alt to open elite for me kind of favor). However, for most hardcore gamers that is probably not the case. It's the fact that they choose to disregard 3/4 or more of the content based on factors other than replayability, and rerun the other 1/4 to death, that leaves them "nothing to do".

    I'm not belittling them, but they should realize that no company would ever be able to keep up with that kind of demand.
    The shroud is, by far, the best designed raid in the game because it provides the most different things for the most people to do. Pt 1 is boring, but pt 2 requires a lot of people be aware of whats going on, pt 3 requires every individual to do 1-2 jobs, and pts 4-5 are both beatdowns that actually have (had, now that its easy enough) important jobs for other people (eg gnolls, kiting, etc).

    IMO the only other raid that comes close to providing that much interestingness for every party member is ToD. VoD is a pretty boring tank and beatdown, 3 people have interesting jobs in hound, 3 in titan, everyone who doesnt cast or range is useless in demon queen, velah is 2-3 people do the pillars and an extremely uninteresting beatdown, and the reaver similarly involves 9-11 party members not needing to pay any attention whatsoever.

    I think the Abbot is an excellent raid, too, but it only provides a lot for everyone to do with an experienced group, so I excluded it. But, by far, those 3 raids involve the whole party the most consistently.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    then what do you consider a good raid, irrelevant of what kind of loot is in there?
    Well, key elements to a good raid, to me, are:
    • Must involve all members
    • Must not require silly obstacles
    • Must not devolve in a DPS contest where melee players stand still


    For those reasons, Hound of Xoriat is probably the best raids in the game at the moment. It has its own flaws, especially in the loot department, but it's better designed than most. The Shroud is not that bad either if you remove Freedom of Movement and ignore part 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    If you have 5+ characters each with 2000+ favor I could see saying there is not much left to do from a replayablility (fun) point of view (and i'm not talking about just get an alt to open elite for me kind of favor). However, for most hardcore gamers that is probably not the case. It's the fact that they choose to disregard 3/4 or more of the content based on factors other than replayability (fun), and rerun the other 1/4 to death, that leaves them "nothing to do".
    People play RPGs partly for the character progression.
    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    I'm not belittling them, but they should realize that no company would ever be able to keep up with that kind of demand.
    I have been telling you for several posts that Turbine IS capable of providing enough content.
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  5. #125
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Glad to see this topic is still civil was worried that id come back to a flame war. Read as much as I could but people still are not getting what my original post is about. I think I muddled it up and I apologize for it so let me try to convey what im getting at clearer.

    For myself and speaking only for myself since I noted someone took a stab at that, not my friends who I do believe feel the same way. I think that Turbine did mess up high levels. Not intentionally but I do not feel they thought we were getting past the Shroud.

    As for loot I dont cry for new loot I dont even knock epic loot period because to me someone will want or make use of it. I already stated more then once that I believe Epic loot truly began with Greensteel items and thats where I hunt when I want powerful items for my characters with the exception of bloodstone/icy rainments and a few named items from Titan and DQ do I really think most items even touch being able to craft your own.

    So please stop lumping me into the boat of being bored with loot. If anything I think shroud crafting for me will solve my personal loot needs for a long time to come.

    As to what I feel should be present for level 20s I dont know how many times I have to say that if people feel True Reincarnate, shelving and playing only other builds is their thing thats fine. Personally id like to see more of a reason to keep my level 20's active save just farming but if thats their fate i'll do that, not because I refuse to see you should just retire the character, but because I dont believe in putting so much work to make one strong only to say "well thats it time for another character." So maybe im wrong to many posters in here for feeling that way but I just fail to see how its fun to build a character up then watch as they get to a point where you cant really do much with them anymore.

    I get that we just got updates and I have said I appreciate them. I have had fun in the new mind sunder quests not for loot but for a change of pace. But I can see why some do not find them worth their level rating as well. But it seems that no matter how much I try to convey that this thread is not about being bored, being mad or being fed up with things. That its just my hope towards a future where all levels have enough things to do for fun, and not coming down to having to reincarnate just to get a longer play life out of my characters.

    I cant argue with those who refuse to see that there is nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy a level 20 you worked hard on. I will take the label powergamer but I will not accept that I should have to leave because I feel that getting to twenty should not end a characters journey.
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  6. #126
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Not counting the loot grind, how long do you suppose another GH or vale size mod would hold your interest, compared to IQ?

    I think it would take an expansion size update to hold enough interest beyond the loot grind.
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  7. #127
    Community Member ProdigalGuru's Avatar
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    Completionist Feat on a lvl 20 character is how you win.

    At least it is how I am going to win.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Well, key elements to a good raid, to me, are:
    *Must involve all members
    It's interesting to note that for any given raid encounter, that metric could be simply improved simply by reducing the number of players allowed to come. That's why I was happier when the original DDO raid loot rules turned out to encourage groups of under seven players, and why I repeatedly suggested that non-large groups be given increased access to raid content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    *Must not require silly obstacles
    One could call it a "silly obstacle" to have an enemy who is immune to all forms of damage except for something unique that just happens to be found right where he lives. The Warforged Titan, Black Abbot, and Hound of Xoriat all share that trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    *Must not devolve in a DPS contest where melee players stand still
    I've been meaning to write up a suggestion on how some existing raid-like fights could work better in that regard. Nytrious is a particular offender.

  9. #129
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    Not counting the loot grind, how long do you suppose another GH or vale size mod would hold your interest, compared to IQ?

    I think it would take an expansion size update to hold enough interest beyond the loot grind.
    Amrath was only really 4 quests and a raid (you can count the side-quests, but they're super short, super mindless and not run even remotely the same way) and it kept people occupied for a month or more

    It took at least as long, if not longer, for people to reliably get reaver's refuge down. Those quests were -hard- at release!

    A gianthold-sized update that featured quests of GH-caliber would probably comfortably last the endgame community 2-3 months, depending on the specifics of loot unlocks, etc.

    Epic hasn't taken as long primarily because the entry barrier is so much higher and, thusfar, the loot is rather niche outside a few items. It was tackled avidly by the highest-quality characters, but there's a lot of players on Ghallanda for example who are neither interested in the loot or in challenges of that magnitude (and length) and consequently will not even consider entering one. Samadhi is an excellent example; he simply refuses to do epic quests becuase they take too long and he dislikes the desert.

    Epic Gh will probably go a long way, as long as they dont make the mistake they made in the desert and only epic crucible-madstone-pop-tor-reaver. Even if they do, those quests are generally better-liked and feature more loot that more characters use or would use with potential upgrades, so it'll probably bring more people in than epic desert did.

    You didn't see complaint threads like this after the Amrath release; hell, even after IQ. It's just a little misleading to suggest that these 5 new quests are remotely part of DDO's endgame or designed for characters who are there. IQ is clearly not, and no one was bothered by that. These quests play 4-5 CR lower than the other lv 19 quests on the same difficulty. The idea that Turbine released this content for my characters is laughable.

  10. #130
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Exactly I dont even think and I know im in the small minority for this that loot would be the answer just something different something where you know that your level 20 can get in and be put to the test, maybe a series of gauntlet style quests mirroring Amrath in difficulty but since experience is not a factor have it unlock something else. Set goals up that people will want to strive for maybe to unlock items (tie into housing sorry cant help the shameless promo.)

    I just dont get why the same argument that Turbine cant keep up I know I have plenty to do still, classes and races to play still so its not a matter of having nothing to do. I will continue to repeat this till it becomes clear that that argument does not apply to this forum poster. Its a matter of taking a character working on them getting them gear, getting them levels putting your efforts into what you think is a solid character only to feel like your at a stop point once you hit cap.

    I noticed some people say they dont feel that way and great if you feel you can play your level 20s and have fun I envy you. But to me outside the occassional raid to help others or gain a piece of loot I can now transfer between accounts (war trophies, epic seals) I dont seem much point of logging on my 20's for to long. Right now my favorite to play is my ranger rogue I go out into the desert to get items to test epic recipes but once thats done she will probably not be played unless I decide hmm let me break her down and rebuild her giving her extra stat points..

    I dont want it to come to that I am not saying this to be selfish I do not knock the game and I really want to convey that. I just hate thinking cap should mean end game yes epic content will be hard to create but with the way they are going about it (redoing quests that used to have night mare flagging for them) I just dont think that will be the answer either. I used to love the desert but before the new flagging had to run the content constantly to be flagged. Its not fresh enough even on epic to get more then a wow the first time threw now its done to test stuff but even then its going to get to the meh point.

    Vons maybe interesting but who knows? Ive run that series so much and just recently to that I dont see myself getting too giddy on it either. I just hope that with the new revenue and hopefully the company will be able to one day develop newer content that addresses those who want to keep their level 20's and play them.

    Mind sunder quests are fun I believe I said that in the thread that questioned that and got + 1 rep from you Krud. But honestly do you really feel that they are of the same par as Amrath? I cant honestly say yes to that, though I still enjoy the area I love the music I think the concept is amazing and look forward to more but I do not think of them when I think "oh lets do something that will get the blood pumping."
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  11. #131
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    I got neg repped 4 times for saying it the other day, but in the end the reality is that bad players like easy quests.

    Reaver's Refuge and Amrath quests are simply way, way too hard for some people. Not on an equipment/gear suitability level, but on a 'run them 50 times and still don't understand why they die so much' level.

    I have tons of patience and sympathy for the new, the under-geared and those who're trying.

    I just entirely lack sympathy for people who've run a quest dozens of times and are still just flat up terrible at it. Frankly, most of the players who have a problem with Amrath content are in this class, not in the newbie one. If you've run a quest like Monestary or Prey or the Shroud 40-50 times and still don't know how to do puzzles, separate lieutenants, get through the maze, etc, maybe you should just TR and level back up again because the endgame is clearly not for you.

  12. #132
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I got neg repped 4 times for saying it the other day, but in the end the reality is that bad players like easy quests.

    Reaver's Refuge and Amrath quests are simply way, way too hard for some people. Not on an equipment/gear suitability level, but on a 'run them 50 times and still don't understand why they die so much' level.

    I have tons of patience and sympathy for the new, the under-geared and those who're trying.

    I just entirely lack sympathy for people who've run a quest dozens of times and are still just flat up terrible at it. Frankly, most of the players who have a problem with Amrath content are in this class, not in the newbie one. If you've run a quest like Monestary or Prey or the Shroud 40-50 times and still don't know how to do puzzles, separate lieutenants, get through the maze, etc, maybe you should just TR and level back up again because the endgame is clearly not for you.
    I hear you Junts I never understood why people take it so personally but I am glad that we are able to air our frustrations out this way.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    A gianthold-sized update that featured quests of GH-caliber would probably comfortably last the endgame community 2-3 months, depending on the specifics of loot unlocks, etc.
    It's interesting to note that this is not what happened with Gianthold, though. Even though it probably is the most popular content release Turbine has ever released and contains quite a fair deal of quests, the blues started after a month and a half after the release of the content which is about similar to what the Vale took. That's because most of the quest were not really worth running.

    Instead of using the utmost of their quests, Turbine set a large number of them to be less hard (ie level 13) and contain less interesting loot.

    That resulted in only four quests and the raid to be really ran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    One could call it a "silly obstacle" to have an enemy who is immune to all forms of damage except for something unique that just happens to be found right where he lives. The Warforged Titan, Black Abbot, and Hound of Xoriat all share that trait.
    No. I can bear that kind of obstacle - heck, it can be quite fun if done right (the Titan is really fun if you're one of the three people doing something and I like the Hound's design). I meant one that just was implemented for the purpose of requiring more players or a particular kind of player (Vault of Night comes to mind).
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  14. #134
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    I hear you Junts I never understood why people take it so personally but I am glad that we are able to air our frustrations out this way.

    I'm getting out my Bad at Diplomacy Hat.

    I think a lot of people look at threads like this, look at the majority of the posters and/or click on my.ddo links, see cubic tons of raid loot items and think 'oh, that's why'. Then you have players like you making the exact same kind of thread, and if they did that they'd see that none of your characters is exactly swimming in raid loot or shroud items. There's nothing any of your characters are using that couldn't be acquired by any casual player in a few weeks to a month of hopping higher level raids.

    Yet here you are in this thread making the same commentary, because you know what you are doing and that matters a lot more than whether or not you're wearing 2 cleansed shroud hp/sp items and a shroud exceptional stat stick on your caster.

    It has nothing to do with equipment caliber; it's about player competence. If people are challenged by the DD or IQ quests after their first run, they are just not good at this. (exception: Devourer of Dreams is badass).

  15. #135
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It's interesting to note that this is not what happened with Gianthold, though. Even though it probably is the most popular content release Turbine has ever released and contains quite a fair deal of quests, the blues started after a month and a half after the release of the content which is about similar to what the Vale took. That's because most of the quest were not really worth running.

    Instead of using the utmost of their quests, Turbine set a large number of them to be less hard (ie level 13) and contain less interesting loot.

    That resulted in only four quests and the raid to be really ran.

    No. I can bear that kind of obstacle - heck, it can be quite fun if done right (the Titan is really fun if you're one of the three people doing something and I like the Hound's design). I meant one that just was implemented for the purpose of requiring more players or a particular kind of player (Vault of Night comes to mind).
    Same problem in Amrath except for the Bauble which caused a lot of weap shipment farming, too.

    And again with the Desert, which probably had the same problem at release and they just compounded it by having only 5 epic-diff quests instead of modifying all those rarely-run sidequests. I get those quests don't have named loot in them to have epic effects for, but by spreading all the explorer zone loot upgraders throughout them they would have made those quests 30 times more popular than they've ever been, especially since so many desirable upgrades (spellstoring, bloodstone, firestorm) come out of explorer zone chests.

    The decision not to epic rahmat/kouroush/marauding the mines/purging the fallen shrine/raid the vulkoorim was just a massive, massive mistake.

  16. #136
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I'm getting out my Bad at Diplomacy Hat.

    I think a lot of people look at threads like this, look at the majority of the posters and/or click on my.ddo links, see cubic tons of raid loot items and think 'oh, that's why'. Then you have players like you making the exact same kind of thread, and if they did that they'd see that none of your characters is exactly swimming in raid loot or shroud items. There's nothing any of your characters are using that couldn't be acquired by any casual player in a few weeks to a month of hopping higher level raids.

    Yet here you are in this thread making the same commentary, because you know what you are doing and that matters a lot more than whether or not you're wearing 2 cleansed shroud hp/sp items and a shroud exceptional stat stick on your caster.

    It has nothing to do with equipment caliber; it's about player competence. If people are challenged by the DD or IQ quests after their first run, they are just not good at this. (exception: Devourer of Dreams is badass).
    Hehe you win the diplo check but I learned long ago never wear any important items when I log off due to my ddo's tendency to show off plus the girl I really have decked out in any type stuff is unavailable for viewing due to transferring her back and forth. I do rely more on skill then just crafted items though and I think it keeps the game fun, but by 20 I still feel like there is so much more they could face and enjoy and its just not happening.

    Maybe i'll just work on the new builds and wait patiently for newer updates I just hope that epic doesnt always mean reskinned quests.
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  17. #137
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    yadda, yadda, yadda ... Maybe i'll just work on the new builds and wait patiently for newer updates I just hope that epic doesnt always mean reskinned quests.
    I hope you are right with that statement as well. Granted I have not tried the 'Epic' quests personally. But from what I have read on the various threads thus far, I really don't think I will be impressed when I finally do.

    You want a real challenge? Go to Korthos, and pick 1 player that is new to DDO or a RL friend that has just signed up and make them your protege. Work with them until they get to a 'competent' gaming ability. Like I have stated before, I am no way a 'power gamer' or know EVERYTHING there is to know about DDO. But I find the real challenge to be the patience to teach others what i do know.

    I'm not saying pick up some d-bag that has no intentions of learning. Pick out someone that asks 'logical' questions or seems to really be interested in the mechanics of the game. Believe it or not they are really out there. Try and break the stigmata of vet vs. noob.

    I mean really other than the loot grinds this game is about the community, it is what has kept me around this long. Yeah, you get the occasional @$$ hat (vet or noob), but for the most part a lot of us are here because of the name DDO carries, trying to recapture a part of our youth we either lost or are trying to keep a grasp on. Sure there are those that will only last a few hours, days, weeks or months. But there are also those that while may not have been around since 'head start', I am sure will be around longer than some of us that have already come and gone and come back again.

    Besides, there is nothing more time consuming, challenging or rewarding than teaching. To those of you that do it as a profession, kudos. I don't have the patience to teach professionally, I show my frustration too easily. However, with DDO, it is just a game and does not have the RL consequences involved, so do not get 'over excited' about it when things go wrong, or people don't get the 'simplest' of concepts.

    I assure those of you that are frustrated with the lack of level 20 challenges that by time you have taught someone else (not told, but actualy taught) everything you know, there will be more level 20 content and that it will be better than what is out there now. And by that time, you may have a new friend that thinks in ways that you do to run it with, which makes it even more fun.

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  18. #138
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I do want to see more lvl 20 content. Absolutely. Lots of it.

    But I want to see LFMs for what I haven't done yet.

    And I am not currently convinced that more content would change that in any way.

    More loot will change that. But from what I see the players only want more loot, not more chalenge in any way.

    Amrath flagging quests are not being done on hard/elite.
    Epic 6 mans are not being done.
    And Mindsunder gems(or whatever) quests are not being done. And not hard/elite.

    Reaver's refuge quests are not being done...especially hard/elite.

    So IMO, people do not desire a challenge at all. Only a reward (read loot).

    They even find protecting venerated with lvl 20 chars too hard.
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  19. #139
    Community Member Anarkius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    ...So IMO, people do not desire a challenge at all. Only a reward (read loot)...
    While I agree with this opinion in MOST applications, I don't think that is what the OP was about. And I'm sorry if I am misreading your post, but that is the point that sticks out the most (to me).

    I do agree with a lot of what you said in your most recent post. It is one thing to run the 'high end' content on normal. But what about on hard / elite. I know most of us reserve this for dedicated guild groups (and I understand why, although I do not want to get into 'that' conversation here). But There is definately a 'lack of' high end LFM's all the way around. Granted, that may be due to the reason 'not mentioned' above.

    Personally, for those that have capped characters, more power to ya. Those that have reincarnated and are going for the 'completionist feat' I wish you all luck.

    But, I would rather take my time burning through the content. Yes, it's nice having the bragging rights of "I did SUCH-AND-SUCH the day it was released (or on Lamannia)" (and I did that with the first IQ quest set), but once you do that continuously there is nothing left. Having capped characters is great to be able to do that, but then what??? You have to wait around until the next update / module. Or you re-run it on norm over and over to get your 'loot' and then you're bored or tired of it and feel that there is not enough 'end game content'.

    I'm not bashing anyone that has posted their opinions on this, and my point of view is more than likely very different than a lot of yours. But I think the real challenge that DDO presents is finding ways to keep ourselves interested in what is there and hope for more to come.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I got neg repped 4 times for saying it the other day, but in the end the reality is that bad players like easy quests.

    Reaver's Refuge and Amrath quests are simply way, way too hard for some people. Not on an equipment/gear suitability level, but on a 'run them 50 times and still don't understand why they die so much' level.

    I have tons of patience and sympathy for the new, the under-geared and those who're trying.

    I just entirely lack sympathy for people who've run a quest dozens of times and are still just flat up terrible at it. Frankly, most of the players who have a problem with Amrath content are in this class, not in the newbie one. If you've run a quest like Monestary or Prey or the Shroud 40-50 times and still don't know how to do puzzles, separate lieutenants, get through the maze, etc, maybe you should just TR and level back up again because the endgame is clearly not for you.
    I laughed when I read this.

    It is amazing that I am still alive the horrid groups I have been in. How do you wipe the entire raid during the puzzle part? It's happened. After screaming not to, the group decides to kill the white dragon in Prey during the Giant fight? Aneurysm incoming...

    My first toon (Ballistics 20 sorc) was a ton of fun... but realizing that I did not have healing capabilities, there was only so many instances I could solo (the entire IQ chain is a joke). Making my next toon, the solo capability began to take fruition. My toon I am currently working on, I should only have to join raid groups or epic dungeon groups. Everything else can be soloed.

    New players are great. They are the lifeblood of any game. However, I cannot stand those that cannot grasp the simplest of concepts. This has lead me to want to solo more and more, to not deal with the headaches. Hell, when I have free time, I sit in the Harbor or Marketplace reading chat and squelching people, stopping the inevitable.


    There are still many things the Devs can do to bring the endgame back to life. Amrath was a nice jolt for a little while, but it's not enough. Epic content is interesting, but the sub-par upgrades makes it more of a joke. Greensteel items (CR 12 if im not mistaken?) are better than IQ CR 18's or the CR20's from epics. There's no incentive. There's no reason to really push ourselves to obtain said items unless for a really minor purpose.


    I think the chimps in the background that are designing the loot need to be turned to scientific experiments, and we get some real loot our way. With the exception of ToD sets, shroud is the only saving grace. (Dont get me started on SoS)


    If there's enough interest, I have a number of ideas to shoot Turbines way that may or may not make the grade.

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