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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    si, typo.
    realy fast repl.

    How much do you think 2wf WF would lose compared to the drow in you example?
    I'm speaking about a distantant future I asume I have access to 36-pointer.

    Something like:

    Str: 16 (10) + 4 level ups
    Dex: 15 (8) (+2 tome qualifies for imp twf)
    Con: 12 (2)
    Int: 10 (2)
    Wis: 7 (1) (+1/2 tome and +6/5 item is 14)
    Cha: 15 (13) + 1 level up (+2 tome for divine might 3)

  2. #42
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Favis View Post
    realy fast repl.

    How much do you think 2wf WF would lose compared to the drow in you example?
    I'm speaking about a distantant future I asume I have access to 36-pointer.

    Something like:

    Str: 16 (10) + 4 level ups
    Dex: 15 (8) (+2 tome qualifies for imp twf)
    Con: 12 (2)
    Int: 10 (2)
    Wis: 7 (1) (+1/2 tome and +6/5 item is 14)
    Cha: 15 (13) + 1 level up (+2 tome for divine might 3)
    That's not bad at all, just remember how incredibly good the statistics of a 36 point drow can be (16 str, 18 cha starting if they wanted, or 17 str, 15 dex and 17 cha)


    But mathematically not the best does not equal 'bad', and there's certainly a lot of good ways to build paladins with every race. What I wanted to do with this thread was stress some of the aspects of optimization that are different for paladins than they are for other melee classes, so people understood that there's very different tradeoffs and benefits involved.

  3. #43
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Excellent guide, Junts! I'll be sure to rep you when the timer on you is up.

    Really, very well written formatted. You could possibly stand to add some color, maybe in the section-titles and dividers, or to highlight key points in longer paragraphs, in order to present some ocular variety.

    I was going to make a few comments, but somewhere between that first post and the 5th, it dropped outta my head.


    However, a couple of other fairly minor ones have popped in since:

    You may want to put a larger section concerning skills. In particular some more detail about Intimidate (how it works, the penalties it gets vs. larger monsters, DCs to shoot for, and other uses, such as monster positioning), and perhaps other skills besides UMD and Intimidate that are worth taking/recommended. Obviously, on the lower-Int, non-human builds, this won't be of much concern, but making sure to recommend a little Jump (but not much), a little Tumble (on DoS), and then one of Balance or Concentration (self-healer...I believe you had mentioned considering this for one of your self-healers in another thread).

    You should include in the Holy Sword section that the ingredients do not stack, tend to cost around 1000gp, and that Holy Sword can only be cast in an instance. It's been a little bit of a hassle for Ferrumrym, since he only has 14 Pal levels, and must swap in Holy Sword, find somewhere to cast it, then pop out back to a tavern or shrine and grab Zeal again. This can be especially frustrating when joining a raid group. And even more so if they group has some certain elitists, who will ***** and moan about my not having a Mineral II 2-hander.

    On a similar note to my two above points, you may want to mention somewhere which quests are especially tank-friendly or require Holy Sword. Not a big deal, since this info can be found elsewhere (such as in some of Aranticus' guides), but it would be good to at least have a link to the pertinent info.

    Oh, it may also be worth noting that there now exist some Heavy Shields that are competitive with Towers available (if only very late in the game), as well as a tower that grants proficiency (Madstone), so someone who doesn't splash fighter on a tanking paladin may not need the proficiency, although it's still valuable.


    If some of this is covered in the specific builds, I apologize. I didn't read those this time through, but I'll promise to do so eventually.

    Again, great job! Now I think I'll go bump my Guide to Using a Gamepad thread, and maybe replicate it in the New Player forums.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  4. #44
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    That's not bad at all, just remember how incredibly good the statistics of a 36 point drow can be (16 str, 18 cha starting if they wanted, or 17 str, 15 dex and 17 cha)


    But mathematically not the best does not equal 'bad', and there's certainly a lot of good ways to build paladins with every race. What I wanted to do with this thread was stress some of the aspects of optimization that are different for paladins than they are for other melee classes, so people understood that there's very different tradeoffs and benefits involved.
    For a TWF 36 point Drow PLD is a 18 str and 17 cha possible with a 12 con? I would find out myself but on a library computer I dont think that is wise.

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  5. #45
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natakeu View Post
    For a TWF 36 point Drow PLD is a 18 str and 17 cha possible with a 12 con? I would find out myself but on a library computer I dont think that is wise.
    Drow can't get to 36 points; they're counted as being 32-point builds (even though you can only mess with 28 of them) and with the current 2 reincarnations max, you can get up to 32.

  6. #46
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Drow can't get to 36 points; they're counted as being 32-point builds (even though you can only mess with 28 of them) and with the current 2 reincarnations max, you can get up to 32.
    I am aware of thier predistribution and its mainly a matter of viewpoint or semantics. I appreciate you trying to point this out though.

    As for potential questions one may have about the idea preposed is I was thinking about using +3/+4 dex to make up the differance for the requirement. I know early on this would pose a problem potentially, but would only even out later on. Another question that is blossoming in my head is simply are bound tomes able to be used after completeing the TR process. I understand I probably need to do more research, but I appreciate anyone's input personally.

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  7. #47
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    That was my stutter; I meant 32 point drow.

    17 str (13)
    15 dex (5)
    12 con (6)
    10 int (0)
    8 wis (0)
    17 cha (8)

    16/18 is doable, but not 18/16 .. remember, you're taking advantage of the racial +2.

  8. #48
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    How's this for insanity's sake?

    18 str
    13 dex
    11 con
    10 int
    8 wis
    17 cha

    2x True Res Drow PLD TWF with respective tomes. Its an idea alone.

    "Lead me, Follow me, or Get the hell out of my way!" - General Patton
    Haggle is not just a skill in game, but a skill in life.
    Khyber, We Know Drama...

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Holy swords have the following statistics:

    +5 enhancement
    Holy Burst (2d6 per hit, 3d6/4d6/5d6 on crit)
    Silver, Cold Iron and Byeshk all at once
    Static Protection from Evil effect on the user when wielded
    Permanent until logout (they will vanish when you have been off-line for around 15 minutes)
    I love me some Holy Sword! Where it usually gets me in trouble, though, is against Neutral things like Animals, Vermin, and Elementals. I still carry my dual +5 True Law Rapiers of Pure Good for those guys, and it works great. Just saying, it helps to carry something else for non-Evil things.

    Also, as a Rapier using Drow, when I log in I create two Rapiers (duh), two Longswords for Slashing, and two Warhammers for Bludgeoning.

  10. #50
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post

    Also, as a Rapier using Drow, when I log in I create two Rapiers (duh), two Longswords for Slashing, and two Warhammers for Bludgeoning.
    That sounds...excessive.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That sounds...excessive.
    Well sure, if you know you won't go near any Zombies or Skeletons don't bother, but I hate hacking away at those guys with my Rapiers (been in the Desert alot recently).

  12. #52
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Well sure, if you know you won't go near any Zombies or Skeletons don't bother, but I hate hacking away at those guys with my Rapiers (been in the Desert alot recently).
    I don't think I could stand, or recommend, making 6 weapons every time a paladin logged on. I make mine when I know what I'm running--if it will require Holy Sword, I go and make one, two if I'll be needing a bludgeoning 2-hander. Otherwise, there's plenty of other weapons that are useful for places like the desert.

    Holy Sword is awesome when it's replacing a Mineral II, which otherwise costs many millions of gold and months of work to acquire, but they don't stack up well cost-wise against a +5 Holy of Pure Good weapon, for example, which does more damage and will cost less over a long period of time.

    Even a +5 Flaming of Pure Good would be just as useful in many situations.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #53
    Community Member excess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Also, as a Rapier using Drow, when I log in I create two Rapiers (duh), two Longswords for Slashing, and two Warhammers for Bludgeoning.
    Wouldn't you be better off making scimis for slashing weapons?

  14. #54
    Community Member flynnjsw's Avatar
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    How feasible is a THF WF Pure Pali? I know the initial -2 CHA hit is tough, but that can be gotten over.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I don't think I could stand, or recommend, making 6 weapons every time a paladin logged on.

    <snip>

    Even a +5 Flaming of Pure Good would be just as useful in many situations.
    That's cool. I haven't wanted to worry about obtaining and maintaining those other weapons, so I haven't bothered. I agree there is additional cost which others may not want to put up with, but I jump into a quest and make my Rapiers whenever I log on, so it takes insignificant additional time to make the other weapons too. As mentioned, I just finished with the Desert, so having the Slashing and Bludgeoning for the things there came in handy. Moving on to GH and beyond I'm sure I won't bother as much.

    I basically just wanted to point out it's nice that we can get good Zombie/Skeleton beaters for cheap when we need 'em. That's also a minor benefit of the Khopesh in my opinion. Slashing is one of the popular DR types, so then they just need to cover Bludgeoning. Piercing doesn't bypass much (or anything...?), so you still have to cover both Slashing and Bludgeoning with secondary weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by excess View Post
    Wouldn't you be better off making scimis for slashing weapons?
    Well, since it's pretty much for zombies, the crit range doesn't matter, so I figure the d8 base damage is marginally better than d6.
    Last edited by rimble; 12-09-2009 at 03:39 PM.

  16. #56
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natakeu View Post
    I am aware of thier predistribution and its mainly a matter of viewpoint or semantics. I appreciate you trying to point this out though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    That was my stutter; I meant 32 point drow.

    My apologies then Natekeu. I didn't mean to sound rude.

  17. #57
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    That's cool. I haven't wanted to worry about obtaining and maintaining those other weapons, so I haven't bothered. I agree there is additional cost which others may not want to put up with, but I jump into a quest and make my Rapiers whenever I log on, so it takes insignificant additional time to make the other weapons too. As mentioned, I just finished with the Desert, so having the Slashing and Bludgeoning for the things there came in handy. Moving on to GH and beyond I'm sure I won't bother as much.

    I basically just wanted to point out it's nice that we can get good Zombie/Skeleton beaters for cheap when we need 'em. That's also a minor benefit of the Khopesh in my opinion. Slashing is one of the popular DR types, so then they just need to cover Bludgeoning. Piercing doesn't bypass much (or anything...?), so you still have to cover both Slashing and Bludgeoning with secondary weapons.
    Fair enough. Oh, and I believe rakshasas require Piercing and Good to bypass their DR. And razor cats may as well? Nothing else springs to mind, though.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  18. #58
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    My apologies then Natekeu. I didn't mean to sound rude.
    Not a problem, nor do I mean to come off as abrasive. Its something that I find that happens alot as I am strait forward and to the point.

    "Lead me, Follow me, or Get the hell out of my way!" - General Patton
    Haggle is not just a skill in game, but a skill in life.
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  19. #59
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natakeu View Post
    How's this for insanity's sake?

    18 str +5
    13 dex +3/4/5
    11 con +1/3/5
    10 int +2/4
    8 wis +2/4
    17 cha +1/3/5

    2x True Res Drow PLD TWF with respective tomes. Its an idea alone.
    Well back to the idea I was trying to prepose before I ran out of time yesterday. The idea alone is to use the above stat array, after gaining the appropriate tomes. I understand at first glance it appears to be not viable. What I am looking to do here is partially explained in red under the quote. Aproximately in the time frame of the birth of Giant Hold I began to grow tired of making new characters simply to have to remake them due to each respective tome being released for use to the players. Thus I began building every character since with +5 tomes in mind respectively.

    I know the limitations this build will have initally but is something that in time I believe will grow to be something worthwhile. For the sake of not being a bottom feeder I would likely adjust the stat array to something that would work within the paramaters currently available untill the collecting of required items is completed. In other words, wait to True Resurrect the second time or if tomes aren't allowed to be carried with after banking them in the remove only chest; obtain and adjust stats with the lesser variations of the Resurrect System.

    Anyone wish to discuss?

    "Lead me, Follow me, or Get the hell out of my way!" - General Patton
    Haggle is not just a skill in game, but a skill in life.
    Khyber, We Know Drama...

  20. #60
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    I don't really see the net benefit of that over a basic 32 point, 17/14/17 human, which would have 3 more con and equivalent strength due to the human str enhancement

    If you're not pushing multiple stats on a drow build, it's just inferior to other races. A 36 point human would even have equitable dexterity, or more if you started at 12 con, which is still more than the drow has. The advantage to drow is taking multiple stats past 14 for 1 build point; if you're not getting that advantage, then they don't have one.


    Seph, I'm going to give some more extended treatment to max dex bonus, but at this time I have no intention of altering the section about tower shields, as I think that this moment of parity is quite short; as soon as we get another epic content, whether its the vons or gianthold, there will be epic tower shields that renew the issue, and since the vons is probably first, it won't even give free proficiency. You'll notice I in general avoided the specifics even of DT vs mith vs EVoIL, since by the time any character created with this build is capped and getting that gear, there will be new gear to deal with. I avoided equipment on purpose.
    Last edited by Junts; 12-10-2009 at 12:09 PM.

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