Any reason why you didn't give some info on this weapon choice? Even if it may be less damage, it is viable. :P
Any reason why you didn't give some info on this weapon choice? Even if it may be less damage, it is viable. :P
Very very informative thread Junts, so thank you for the awesome reference. I had come to these conclusions largely based on my own makeshift math, but your Holy Sword argument for total cost of ownership (which I spied in another of your comments a short while back) is what tipped the hat in favour of a drow paladin for my first serious attempt at taking a character to 20.
My requirements were tighter than most, I imagine, as I refused to purchase 32pters, but wanted top end DPS. I'd tried a tempest ranger build, but found the combat uninvolving. Next rolled a pure FB barb, whom I love (one of the few classes that can work optimally with 28pts - THF saves build points and even at low int they get tons of skill points to distribute), however the shortfalls of a pure barb when soloing or short-manning early content soon became apparent in the form of HUGE pot bills. Seeing these would only get bigger, I landed on the paladin. Having unlocked Drow a few weeks back, the choice seemed obvious. LoH and saves meant solving two of my major headaches as a barb - terrible will save and little self-healing options. Moreover, the Holy Sword argument meant low total cost of ownership and being able to pimp out alts sooner. DS and ES also solved the static type of damage dealing mechanic I had encountered with my ranger. I do miss sprint boost and skill points though.
Enact was born - was to be pure and made it all the way to 10 before I started wondering what if... Weighing the pros and cons, I created a new paladin, Tired, that was to be an 18/2 rogue splash. Full rank UMD meant flexibility beyond that afforded me a pure paladin (important, I felt, in a first toon) and evasion - evasion is hard to appreciate early on, but by 10 I had made up my mind I needed it. I hope this impression will only be confirmed as I reach end game.
The build I use, on a drow, was obvious to plan and only required a +1 dex tome to grab ITWF by 12 (I favored IC at 9) and a +2 cha to reach DM3 by 17. Not unrealistic and not particularly expensive as far as things go. Besides, I needn't worry about crafting GS weapons immediately, so I could always trade ingredients for it. The key thing is, I end up with character that I can accumulate resources with, rather than sink them into... which, ultimately, means more freedom to experiment with other builds sooner. He should also be more readily playable outside of guild play (the flexible self healing/rezzing/buffing of full UMD really shines in PUGs) - another quality a new player should appreciate. In short, I think it's the perfect new player toon, though perhaps slightly more complicated to play then some other classes.
Enough advocacy. I did have a question: I satisfied myself that rapier were close enough in most cases to khopeshes not to bother me. Your article raises an interesting question however. You mention that static damage bonus, DM/DF, favor the khopesh, while strikes, DS/ES, favour high crit range weapons, such scimis and rapiers. This is reflected in my numbers, however, I wondered how the picture was affected once the 2 rogue splash came in to play. The splash means -2 damage from missing DM4, which should favour the rapiers. DS3 and capstone wouldn't affect the results either way. Similarly for small SA damage. I'm unsure as to how rogue haste boosts would interact - they mean relatively fewer DS/ES per straight attack as a ratio, presumably favouring khopeshes again, though I can't imagine it would be much. Any other factors I might be missing? Your thoughts?
Last edited by excess; 12-09-2009 at 03:08 AM.
Thank you for a great guide, I wish that I had seen it yesterday, before I spent all morning mucking about the character generator. I particularly appreciate the information on the Holy Sword spell - I had never heard of it, but after reading your guide I realize that I may not want to use falchions after all. Looks like I'd better start saving up for rapiers.
Thank you Junts for this nice guide.
I was a little sad your guide didn't have a sample elf one (since elves are my absolute favorite race in the game, though I do go human when I need the extra feat, human adaptability and the higher CON).
Anyway, would it be possible to do a 32-point TWF elf build in your opinion, or is Drow simply superior due to their +2 CHA bonus?
Also as a side note, I'm a little curious why you mentioned rapiers for only Drow, yet only scimitars for Elves, since Elves can also get enhancements to rapiers.
Anyway, thanks. You're my Paladin hero. ^_^
I think I love you man! I just love my Pally.. My first toon is a Pally, When I reincarnat her, she she will be a pally, and when I reincarnate her again, she will be a Pally! This is exactly the guid I was looking for! +1 Rep and bookmarked!
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Falchion's by far the best weapon choice if you're going two-handed. Its unfortunate that holy sword has such poor 2handed weapon choices, though, because in the end it's probably cheaper for most players to acquire a +2 dexterity tome (especially as tome prices plummet down into the 150-200k plat range, when it used to be 3x that) than it is to create a mineral2 falchion someday.
Drow rapier builds are by far the paladin build with the lowest entry barrier, though, especially since they kind of naturally work out to a 16 dexterity build. They make great /2 rogue builds, too, with a little tweaking. If you took the sample drow twf build here and dropped cha to 16 and took str to 16, while taking rogue levels the same way the sample evasion human did, you'd have an excellent /2 rogue drow build.
Aylin: If you're going a /2 multiclass, elf's not bad, though I admit I feel like both elf and drow don't add a lot in terms of racial enhancements. Dex enhancements are near-useless and weapon damage enhancements are very hard to afford. The extra cha bonus that makes twf drow builds competitive/better than other races 32 point builds goes a long way. If you really did want an elf build, though, there's certainly no reason you couldn't make it; in the end, it may have 1 less strength than a drow build or something, but that's hardly a huge deal in the end. Sadly, it would be mostly an aesthetic advantage, since there's not really any other racial benefit for elf that helps a paladin. I've got a pretty poor view of elven racial enhancements, though, and some might find that taking Undying Court is a valid alternative to UMD. If I was going to make a 32 pointer with just a +2 dex mod, I'd be more attracted to halfling, since they have some really outstanding racial abilities. Its unfortunate that cunning and guile are so expensive, though.
The main reason I give drow so much extra attention is that 20 twf paladin is one of the only builds in the game that's actually best off statistically going drow. I'm no huge fan of the drow race in general, and there's a lot of places on the forum where a new player runs into the information that drow are at best equal and possibly inferior to 32 pt versions of other races, even for classes that drow should logically be good at: human bards > drow bards, human/wf sorcs > drow sorcs, etc. Because that information is so widespread, I felt like it was worth emphasizing that twf drow paladins really are better or tied with other races. There's probably no other melee build type in the game for which drow can be demonstrated to be superior.
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Thanks for putting this thread together, Junts. I've been thinking about doing the same thing for bards but haven't generated the motivation yet.
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Thanks for your reply. Elves have always been my favorite for some reason (and I consequently do a lot of DEX-based builds), but I couldn't get all the stats that you'd posted in your Drow build to a number I was comfortable with. I can see Drow being better off, but it still strikes me as a little odd that the characteristically evil pointy stick-weilding Drow would be a better Paladin than a stronger, tougher human or dwarf.
As a side note, I really wish that Elves/Drow did have some better racial enhancements; generally all I get from the elven side in a build are the DEX enhancements and possibly a level of enchantment resistance or two. :-\
As another aside...
Yes, hurry up and make this already! The main reason I've not done a Bard yet is Idk how to play one!Thanks for putting this thread together, Junts. I've been thinking about doing the same thing for bards but haven't generated the motivation yet.
Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 12-09-2009 at 10:50 AM.
Its fair to note that Eberron drow aren't inherently culturally evil, though they are relatively uncivlized. The difference between drow and Argo/Valenar elves in Eberron is that regular elves broke free from giant slavery and went their own way (usually in a symbiotic relationship with the Giant's enemies, the Dragons) and the drow remained enslaved.
Eberron drow are neither inherently chaotic or inherently evil by nature.
Drow are also only better when you're dealing with pure and twf+divine might 4, two abilities that play very heavily to their innate statistics.
32 pt humans are the best race for nearly every other kind of paladin purpose by a fair margin, since the free feat for Khopesh is actually a far better deal than racial weapons given the tightness of action points. If you look at the sample builds, you can probably see just how much easier the action points are for the THF 20 paladin than the TWF, and how much more flexibility for utility enhancements (auras, racials, etc) the two 18/2 builds have access to comparitively.
Honestly, twf 20 paladins are the only thing in DDO that drow are the best for, so I guess it's fair to let them have their singular moment of glory.
Ahh, I thought Drow were normally evil/chaotic, though to be completely honest I don't know all of the background information on Eberron.
I can how Humans would make the best THFs (though makes me sad; my first paladin was a WF Great Sword user with Bladesworn Transformation) with the +1 STR they can get.
Speaking of that, is it possible to make a good WF paly (with or without Bladesworn)? I thought it'd be pretty cool when I first did mine with Bladesworn, but now I'm unsure since I know better now how awesome Divine Might 4 will be when I get there (plus the loss of a feat for a body leaves me a little iffy).
Anyway, I'll end up making the Drow one later today. I can't wait! ^_^
This is not in the game yet. It may never be. But there had been whisperings about it by Eldarin a while back. Nothing has been said in quite some time.
But if it ever is implemented it may be a longsword. Elves are the only race to get racial enhancements to longsword.
It may end up being that you can choose its weapon type. But if it ends up only being one type of weapon, my money is on longsword.
It may even end up that its a weaker weapon than greensteel or even holy sword. Who knows?
In the meantime I use scimitars, which are basically the same as rapier, but I prefer the look.
Like I said, its a lame reason, but that's why I chose elf.
WF wise, I think there's no reason it couldn't work, though you probably cap out at dm3 and only with a +4 tome; there's a link to such a build in the advanced section (Ultimega). He's got just about everything that works well with thf (chalice, chalice set, etc) but is true-reincarnating to twf. WF have far less reason to go pure than other paladins do, which isn't really bad- a 2 level splash is very rewarding, and its nice when it has less 'cost' becuase you wouldn't be able to afford all the abilities you're giving up anyway.
There's no reason at all to take a body feat on a thf or twf wf paladin build: body feats are almost universally useless, and certainly useless for anyone who's not focused on AC. Since not all max dex enhancers work properly on adamantine body, its a particularly bad feat. If anything, take adamantine and swap it later for a real feat. It wouuld be a wasted feat slot on an endgame warforged.
Ahh, ok thanks, I didn't know that the adamantine body feat was so useless.
I saw you mentioned in another thread that there was a named +7 CHA Full Plate. Do WF get something similar, or are they more or less screwed by that?
EDIT: Would it be ok to take the Extend metamagic later than 6? Starting with 8 WIS I don't think I would be casting much, if any spells at that level. I was thinking I would take Power Attack at level 6, Extend at 15 and GTWF at 18. Would that work?
Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 12-09-2009 at 12:11 PM.
Most WF will be far happier with a docent of defiance or dragontouched docent than they would be a docent of inner light if such a thing existed.
Bravo! Reading this helps alot for the paladin build I am considering out of a rogue that I had been wondering for a while what to do with since I had replaced him with an assasin build. This is the most easy to read easy to follow guide on pld class I have read thus far. Thank you!
Last edited by natakeu; 12-09-2009 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Read Build Preposal for Drow a bit closer, question answered.
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