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  1. #101
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1gmach198 View Post
    First off, thank you very much for putting these guides together!

    I am a brand new player (this is week #2 for me), and I opted to get the Veteran Status & Drow Race unlocked as a Christmas gift to myself this year. I've used your Drow Paladin template outlined in the guide, but I do have some newbie-type questions. I want to to the TWF, high DPS route and enjoy being in the fray of melee.

    As a preface to my questions, I've found the game to be "information & choice overload" - the vastness of choices & customization are cool once you know what you're doing, but can be a bit overwhelming until you get acclimated. I'm eager to reach that point Please go easy on me...

    Question #1: I mapped out the Enhancement List that you outlined in the template, but I'm not sure what Exalted Smiting is & can't find it in the Compendium. Am I missing something?

    Question #2: If I'm understanding the rules correctly, I'd need to take an Exotic Weapon feat in order to use the Kopesh (which you've highlighted as being the best DPS weapon in the game). I didn't see this listed in your Feat list on the Drow Paladin template, so I was wondering if this particular build was instead meant to use Rapiers or some other weapon.

    Question #3: Related to Question #2, and keeping in mind that I'm new to the game and haven't done a ton of adventuring yet, I noticed that you included the Extend Spell Feat in the template. If Kopesh is the way to go, would it be better to use this slot for that, or would the cost outweigh the benefits? I would imagine that extending buffs has some definite value...

    Thanks in advance for your knowledge, expertise, and patience with your responses to my beginner's questions!

    Cheers!
    Drow get significant benefits to using rapiers, so its generally felt that it's not worth the feat slot for a drow to pick up the khopesh feat. Paladins have a lot of short-length cast buffs, and so extend spell significantly reduces the time you spend re-casting them, as well as making them more sp-efficient. The drow build template is designed for rapier use. Khopesh is roughly 2% better dps at the cost of the feat; generally, you'd get more through maintaining your buffs. Rapiers happen to work particularly well with paladin clicky abilities, which defrays the difference between rapier>khopesh for them moreso than other classes. A race that doesnt get perks to rapier (say, human) would pick up EWP: Khopesh, though.

    As far as exalted smite goes, it's a set of enhancements that replace/improve your basic smite evil ability. You must be a level 6 paladin with extra smiting II to see Exalted Smite I as an option. The exalted smite enhancements expand your critical threat range and multiplier when using a smite evil attack, in addition to shortening the cooldown before you can use another. This provides pretty significant burst damage potential. Exalted 1 and 3 increase threat multiplier; 2 and 4 increase threat range (by 1 each). With all 4, your smite evil attacks have a 10% wider critical range and x2 larger multiplier than your regular attacks (in addition to the massive base damage increase, which is multiplied on a critical hit).

    For example, with 2 rapiers at level 20 paladin and all the exaltd smite enhancements, you would have 13 uses of smite evil, each of which would make a normal and offhand attack at +67 to base damage, with a 40% critical threat chance (base 18-20, doubled for improved crit, and 2 more points added later..a 13-20 range), and a 4x critical multiplier. That means your smite evils will hit for 100-110 points of damage, and crit for 400-500 points of damage. (on each hand). Once you've used them, they regenerate only 1/90 seconds, so they aren't a sustainable damage increase, but are a very nice fast-kill method, and add enough damage to be significant over a long boss fight as well.

    However, since they are limited use, they tend to be less important to your damage output than abilities with long durations and/or unlimited uses, like divine favor/divine might (static +damage every attack) and divine sacrifice (which does less damage than smite, but you can use it as long as you have the hp and sp to power it, which is essentially infinitely at high levels).

    The fact that rapiers like smite evils and divine sacrifices (for smites, 13-20/x4 does more damage than 15-20/x5) is part of what defrays the difference between them and the Khopesh. The Khopesh is the best raw damage output weapon in the game (for the cost of a feat), but since your paladin-specific abilities like wide threat ranges so much (for divine sacrifice, 15-20/x3 beats 17-20/x4, again), the difference is smaller. If you had another feat, you'd take Khopesh, but it's a small loss when you pick up the drow rapier bonus enhancements.

    I'm not sure why Paladin Exalted Smite isnt in the compendium, several people have commented on that. It's a very fun set of enhancements and it's great for regular instance questing where unloading all your smites at a dangerous boss mob is usually enough to kill it very, very quickly. Over longer raid-boss fights (where you may stand still and whack the mob for 3-5 minutes in a row without moving), the longer duration buffs add up to more damage, since your smites are all gone in under 30 seconds if you spam them, and you then only get one back every 90 seconds.

    The main sacrifice of rapiers is that you have to spend 6-12 action points on melee attack/damage enhancements, which is a lot to spend on an AP-starved paladin. However, they're well worth the damage, and if you're gonna run epic quests, the attack bonuses are excellent also.

    The rapier build template in this thread is one of the highest-damage dealing builds in DDO, and by far the cheapest and easiest to make for a new player. It lacks some of the utility of a more complicated splash build, but against evil outsider mobs there's only a few builds that can even hope to compete with it. Since evil outsiders are both a massive percentage of our raid bosses and a significant percentage of high-level trash mobs, it's not as narrow a focus as it will seem like at lower levels.

  2. #102
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1gmach198 View Post
    First off, thank you very much for putting these guides together!

    I am a brand new player (this is week #2 for me), and I opted to get the Veteran Status & Drow Race unlocked as a Christmas gift to myself this year. I've used your Drow Paladin template outlined in the guide, but I do have some newbie-type questions. I want to to the TWF, high DPS route and enjoy being in the fray of melee.

    As a preface to my questions, I've found the game to be "information & choice overload" - the vastness of choices & customization are cool once you know what you're doing, but can be a bit overwhelming until you get acclimated. I'm eager to reach that point Please go easy on me...
    Welcome!
    Question #1: I mapped out the Enhancement List that you outlined in the template, but I'm not sure what Exalted Smiting is & can't find it in the Compendium. Am I missing something?
    The compendium is missing these enhancements for some reason. If you'd like to see their description in-game, you can check the "Show Unavailable" box in your enhancements list, which will show all the possible enhancements you may take. For reference's sake, Exalted Smite is a 4-tier enhancement that alternates each tier between increasing your critical multiplier and your critical threat range of your smite evil attempts.

    Question #2: If I'm understanding the rules correctly, I'd need to take an Exotic Weapon feat in order to use the Kopesh (which you've highlighted as being the best DPS weapon in the game). I didn't see this listed in your Feat list on the Drow Paladin template, so I was wondering if this particular build was instead meant to use Rapiers or some other weapon.
    The rapier and scimitar (drow and elf respectively) aren't that far behind the khopesh normally, but the two races mentioned each have racial enhancements that boost the damage of their respective preferred weapon by up to two points, which closes the gap even further. As a result, these characters can get by with swapping a feat for 6 AP.

    You could still take khopesh on either, but then you're losing part of the benefit of going with that particular race. In the case of drow this isn't a big deal as it carries other significant benefits (stat allocation).

    Question #3: Related to Question #2, and keeping in mind that I'm new to the game and haven't done a ton of adventuring yet, I noticed that you included the Extend Spell Feat in the template. If Kopesh is the way to go, would it be better to use this slot for that, or would the cost outweigh the benefits? I would imagine that extending buffs has some definite value...
    Extend is mostly a convenience feat: when you have so many abilities to activate, making sure that they last for a whole combat means you don't lose DPS partway through, and also ensures that you get a lot of benefit out of you short duration buffs, as you tend to lose around 10 seconds from the time you activate the first to the time you bring Combate Expertise back up. It's also more mana-efficient for Zeal, and gives you the option of extending things like resists for long quests with few or no shrines.

    Whether you want to spend the feat or the AP depends on what you want to do with both--paladins are squeezed for both, so it's a hard trade-off either way.
    Thanks in advance for your knowledge, expertise, and patience with your responses to my beginner's questions!

    Cheers!
    Good luck, and enjoy!

    [Edit] What Junts said!
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 12-14-2009 at 03:53 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    VII. Sample 20 TWF Drow DPS
    Enhancements:

    Knight of the Chalice 1-3 (8 ap)
    Courage of Good 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
    Energy of the Templar 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
    Divine Sacrifice 1-3 (6 ap)
    Divine Might 1-4 (10 ap)
    Extra Lay on Hands 1-3 (6 ap)
    Extra Smiting 1-4 (10 ap, pre-req)
    Exalted Smiting 1-4 (10 ap)
    Racial Toughness 1-2 (3 AP)
    Paladin Toughness 1-2 (3 ap)
    Follower of the Sovereign Host (2 ap, pre-req)
    Unyielding Sovereignty (4 ap, pre-req)
    Paladin Weapons of Good (2 ap)
    Drow weapon damage 1-2 (6 ap)
    Paladin Charisma I (if needed for even)
    2 action points of your choice
    I worked out the enhancement progression using the Drow TWF template. Since KotC has so many prerequisites I used that as the milestone:

    Levels 1-6:
    Paladin Extra Smile Evil I (AP 1/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Follower of the Sovereign Host (AP 2/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Paladin Toughness I (AP 1/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Drow Melee Damage I (AP 2/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Paladin Charisma I (AP 2/LVL 2/Spent 2)
    Drow Racial Toughness I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Courage of Good I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil II (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)
    Paladin Toughness II (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)
    Paladin Energy of the Templar I (AP 1/LVL 4/Spent 11)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice I (AP 1/LVL 5/Spent 15)
    Paladin Divine Might I (AP 1/LVL 5/Spent 15)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice I (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Paladin Exalted Smite I (AP 1/LVL 6/Spent 19)

    Levels 7-12:
    Unyielding Sovereignty (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Drow Racial Toughness II (AP 2/LVL 6/Spent 18)
    Drow Melee Damage II (AP 4/LVL 7/Spent 20)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil III (AP 3/LVL 7/Spent 21)
    Paladin Courage of Good II (AP 2/LVL 7/Spent 22)
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II (AP 2/LVL 8/Spent 26)
    Paladin Energy of the Templar II (AP 2/LVL 8/Spent 26)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice II (AP 2/LVL 12/Spent 42)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice II (AP 2/LVL 12/Spent 42)

    Levels 13-20:
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III (AP 3/LVL 13/Spent 45)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV (AP 4/LVL 10/Spent 32)
    Paladin Divine Might III (AP 3/LVL 15/Spent 53)
    Paladin Exalted Smite II (AP 2/LVL 10/Spent 34)
    Paladin Exalted Smite III (AP 3/LVL 14/Spent 49)
    Paladin Charisma II (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Paladin Exalted Smite IV (AP 4/LVL 18/Spent 64)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice III (AP 2/LVL 18/Spent 66)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice III (AP 3/LVL 19/Spent 69)
    Paladin Weapons of Good (AP 2/LVL 20/Spent 74)
    Paladin Divine Might IV (AP 4/LVL 20/Spent 72)

    Junts wasn't kidding about it being tight. Even swapping out Exalted Smite 3+4 for Drow Attack 2 for epic content leaves you with just 1 AP unallocated.

    Although Paladin Charisma II wasn't explicitly listed in the template, I'm not seeing anything else that would be better. 17 base + 3 tome + 2 enhancement + 6 item = 28 CHA. For 6 enhancement points is there anything better than +2 CHA for this buildout?
    Last edited by Carpone; 12-15-2009 at 07:54 AM.

  4. #104
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I worked out the enhancement progression using the Drow TWF template. Since KotC has so many prerequisites I used that as the milestone:

    Levels 1-6:
    Paladin Extra Smile Evil I (AP 1/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Follower of the Sovereign Host (AP 2/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Paladin Toughness I (AP 1/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Drow Melee Damage I (AP 2/LVL 1/Spent 0)
    Paladin Charisma I (AP 2/LVL 2/Spent 2)
    Drow Racial Toughness I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Courage of Good I (AP 1/LVL 3/Spent 7)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil II (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)
    Paladin Toughness II (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)
    Paladin Energy of the Templar I (AP 1/LVL 4/Spent 11)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice I (AP 1/LVL 5/Spent 15)
    Paladin Divine Might I (AP 1/LVL 5/Spent 15)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice I (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Paladin Exalted Smite I (AP 1/LVL 6/Spent 19)

    Levels 7-12:
    Unyielding Sovereignty (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Drow Racial Toughness II (AP 2/LVL 6/Spent 18)
    Drow Melee Damage II (AP 4/LVL 7/Spent 20)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil III (AP 3/LVL 7/Spent 21)
    Paladin Courage of Good II (AP 2/LVL 7/Spent 22)
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II (AP 2/LVL 8/Spent 26)
    Paladin Energy of the Templar II (AP 2/LVL 8/Spent 26)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice II (AP 2/LVL 12/Spent 42)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice II (AP 2/LVL 12/Spent 42)

    Levels 13-20:
    Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III (AP 3/LVL 13/Spent 45)
    Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV (AP 4/LVL 10/Spent 32)
    Paladin Divine Might III (AP 3/LVL 15/Spent 53)
    Paladin Exalted Smite II (AP 2/LVL 10/Spent 34)
    Paladin Exalted Smite III (AP 3/LVL 14/Spent 49)
    Paladin Charisma II (AP 4/LVL 6/Spent 16)
    Paladin Exalted Smite IV (AP 4/LVL 18/Spent 64)
    Paladin Knight of the Chalice III (AP 2/LVL 18/Spent 66)
    Paladin Divine Sacrifice III (AP 3/LVL 19/Spent 69)
    Paladin Weapons of Good (AP 2/LVL 20/Spent 74)
    Paladin Divine Might IV (AP 4/LVL 20/Spent 72)

    Junts wasn't kidding about it being tight. Even swapping out Exalted Smite 3+4 for Drow Attack 2 for epic content leaves you with just 1 AP unallocated.

    Although Paladin Charisma II wasn't explicitly listed in the template, I'm not seeing anything else that would be better. 17 base + 3 tome + 2 enhancement + 6 item = 28 CHA. For 6 enhancement points is there anything better than +2 CHA for this buildout?
    Yes, whichever of the end of exalted smiting or drow rapier attack you don't have is better than +2 cha for 6 action points, which is why I omitted it; for many paladin builds, the best thing to dump are cha enhancements, as long as you have at least a 26 without them.

  5. #105
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Yes, whichever of the end of exalted smiting or drow rapier attack you don't have is better than +2 cha for 6 action points, which is why I omitted it; for many paladin builds, the best thing to dump are cha enhancements, as long as you have at least a 26 without them.
    Why 26 Junts? I don't think that even having less than that would justify spending more than 2 points (Cha I) to even up an odd score.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Yes, whichever of the end of exalted smiting or drow rapier attack you don't have is better than +2 cha for 6 action points, which is why I omitted it; for many paladin builds, the best thing to dump are cha enhancements, as long as you have at least a 26 without them.
    The problem with choosing Drow Melee Atttack over Paladin Charisma is meeting the number of spent APs early on. Look at where Paladin Charisma I is chosen above. It's needed exactly where it is to meet the AP spent requirement. There's nothing else available to put there without adding something superfluous:

    Paladin Charisma I (AP 2/LVL 2/Spent 2)
    Drow Melee Attack I (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)

    Unless I'm missing something, Paladin Charisma I (or some other filler) is necessary to meet spent AP requirements. You can ditch Paladin Charisma II for Drow Melee Attack I without a problem (and have 2 AP remain). Drow Melee Attack II is then obtainable at the cost of Exalted Smite IV.

  7. #107
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The problem with choosing Drow Melee Atttack over Paladin Charisma is meeting the number of spent APs early on. Look at where Paladin Charisma I is chosen above. It's needed exactly where it is to meet the AP spent requirement. There's nothing else available to put there without adding something superfluous:

    Paladin Charisma I (AP 2/LVL 2/Spent 2)
    Drow Melee Attack I (AP 2/LVL 4/Spent 10)

    Unless I'm missing something, Paladin Charisma I (or some other filler) is necessary to meet spent AP requirements. You can ditch Paladin Charisma II for Drow Melee Attack I without a problem (and have 2 AP remain). Drow Melee Attack II is then obtainable at the cost of Exalted Smite IV.
    You can use Drow Melee Attack I, Cha I, and/or Resistance of Good II (and any other cheap, low AP req. talents) to springboard up to everything else. The build as Junts presented it has 2 AP open anyway, so you can use any of these to open things up. You don't need Cha I.
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  8. #108
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    How do paladins make great tanks? The sword and board paladin is perhaps the worst character build in all of DDO. Fighters who use S&B can more readily swap to dps modes so how do paladins make great tanks in comparison?
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  9. #109
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    How do paladins make great tanks? The sword and board paladin is perhaps the worst character build in all of DDO. Fighters who use S&B can more readily swap to dps modes so how do paladins make great tanks in comparison?
    Better saves, higher burst DPS, self-healing, better hate generation, comparable base damage, aura buffs for the party...

    And with a two-level splash of fighter, the paladin has enough feats to pick up DPS feats, making it just as easy to swap to a DPS mode. So, why do you think it's a poor build?
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  10. #110
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    How do paladins make great tanks? The sword and board paladin is perhaps the worst character build in all of DDO. Fighters who use S&B can more readily swap to dps modes so how do paladins make great tanks in comparison?
    Have you actually ever played with Jaerlach? How can you decide whether he's a good tank or not if you've never seen him play?

    His build is sound. He can tank bosses like Horoth while taking much less damage than some fighters or barbarian tanks I've seen, and he's never lost aggro in all the times I've grouped with him. Some of our smoothest ToD runs are with him as main tank, whether he's keeping The Jailor busy in part 1 while we beat down the Judge, or taking the heat from Horoth in Part 3.

    Don't knock it 'til you try it.
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  11. #111
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    Have you actually ever played with Jaerlach? How can you decide whether he's a good tank or not if you've never seen him play?

    His build is sound. He can tank bosses like Horoth while taking much less damage than some fighters or barbarian tanks I've seen, and he's never lost aggro in all the times I've grouped with him. Some of our smoothest ToD runs are with him as main tank, whether he's keeping The Jailor busy in part 1 while we beat down the Judge, or taking the heat from Horoth in Part 3.

    Don't knock it 'til you try it.
    He would be better as a fighter which is the point. Fighters have better dps.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    He would be better as a fighter which is the point. Fighters have better dps.
    The point of this thread is about making an effective end-game paladin tank, not whether fighters are better than paladins. If you want to argue that point, do it in another thread
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  13. #113
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    He would be better as a fighter which is the point. Fighters have better dps.
    How so? If assuming both are Defenders, then fighters have +6 damage (WS, GWS, and 2 enhancements) to their attacks (and another +1 from Ftr Str III), while paladins have +8 from DM IV, or +6 from DM III, as well as Exalted Smites and Divine Sacrifice, oh, and Divine Favor.

    Even if the fighter is a Kensai and the Paladin is a defender their pretty close. If the paladin is a KotC, then he takes the lead against any Evil Outsider.

    So, again, how so?
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  14. #114
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    How so? If assuming both are Defenders, then fighters have +6 damage (WS, GWS, and 2 enhancements) to their attacks (and another +1 from Ftr Str III), while paladins have +8 from DM IV, or +6 from DM III, as well as Exalted Smites and Divine Sacrifice, oh, and Divine Favor.

    Even if the fighter is a Kensai and the Paladin is a defender their pretty close. If the paladin is a KotC, then he takes the lead against any Evil Outsider.

    So, again, how so?
    Your forgetting the fighter capstone of 10% attack speed, more easily able to fit in the three twf or thf feats, khopesh prof and improved critical and feats such as stunning blow, better tactical dcs, etc.

    A guide to paladins should be heavily slanted toward the dps builds that take advantage of the thf or twf combat styles.
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  15. #115
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    He would be better as a fighter which is the point. Fighters have better dps.

    Hey look, a ac-based paladin with the option to swap to a twf mode and significantly better dps output than an equivalent fighter, due to superior +damage buffage:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=214423

    I mean, if that's your thing and all. The only advantage fighters have over paladins is feats; paladins get their 10% attack speed earlier, have more +damage buffs, and have enormously more survivability. The main limiter on twf availability for non-dwarf paladins is the excessive dexterity investment, but you'd do well to notice that the sample ac paladin build here has the full line of thf feats and could easily make those into twf by adjusting other statistics to stat at 15 dexterity. There's not anything that precludes paladins being built with dps swap modes except bad character design.

    However, you address exactly why this guide was written in the first place: Something like 90% of the paladins people roll blow absolute, utter ass. I agree; most sword and board paladins are utter garbage (so are most s/b fighters, as I'm sure you're aware). It is a more complex, less forgiving and more time-consuming class to make effective in multiple roles than just about any other. And, hence, why there's a guide! If we even get the rate down to 60%, we'll have something like 4 times as many useful paladins.

    Frankly, fighters are in desperate need of such a resource, there's more pathetic trash fighters in this game than any other class, since people almost uniformly make first chars out of them and then bail on them when they realize the scope of their creation errors and the cost of changing multiple, inter-dependent feats.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Your forgetting the fighter capstone of 10% attack speed, more easily able to fit in the three twf or thf feats, khopesh prof and improved critical and feats such as stunning blow, better tactical dcs, etc.

    A guide to paladins should be heavily slanted toward the dps builds that take advantage of the thf or twf combat styles.
    Are you forgetting paladins get that +10% bonus at level 14 or are you just being a troll?

    There's an equal amount of this guide devoted to making dps paladin builds despite the fact that it entails nothing besides 'get 20 cha with tome. get 15 dex. max str. take twf. hit ****'. If someone needs more than I wrote to make one of those builds, I confess little confidence they will actually be able to play the game past level 5, since it involves moving parts.
    Last edited by Junts; 12-15-2009 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Are you forgetting paladins get that +10% bonus at level 14 or are you just being a troll?

    There's an equal amount of this guide devoted to making dps paladin builds despite the fact that it entails nothing besides 'get 20 cha with tome. get 15 dex. max str. take twf. hit ****'. If someone needs more than I wrote to make one of those builds, I confess little confidence they will actually be able to play the game past level 5, since it involves moving parts.
    Not trolling just looking at things from an objective framework. Stunning blow is huge right now and if you are a fighter it is alot easier to get a high stunning blow dc. If I were making a tank I would make a fighter that can swap between modes easily and has a very good stunning blow dc. That would be fairly useful on epic content being able to stun mobs effectively and help the other dps characters rack up some kills. Paladins have so many difficulties with stat scores, feat distribution, tactical dcs, and even skills. A paladin basically has to be highly focused because of these limitations and because dps is essential really there is no way around dps being essential, its best to be a dps paladin.
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    Haven't checked because it's a bit asinine to be arguing over who has the higher dps in dps mode on their ac tank, but fighter haste boost(if you can fit it in) probably gives fighters higher dps over 5 minute fights.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Not trolling just looking at things from an objective framework. Stunning blow is huge right now and if you are a fighter it is alot easier to get a high stunning blow dc. If I were making a tank I would make a fighter that can swap between modes easily and has a very good stunning blow dc. That would be fairly useful on epic content being able to stun mobs effectively and helping the other dps characters rack up some kills. Paladins have so many difficulties with stat scores, feat distribution, tactical dcs, and even skills. A paladin basically has to be highly focused because of these limitations and because dps is essential really there is no way around dps being essential, its best to be a dps paladin.
    Frankly, with dual weighted 5% weapons I could really give a damn whether or not I or anyone else has stunning blow.

    Perhaps you should take off your beer goggles for a minute and go back and count the number of times that the section on building an ac-based paladin says 'your damage is incredibly important, do not gimp it'. I'll give you a hint, its 6 paragraphs long and that concept appears roughly 2-3 times per paragraph. If someone reads this guide and comes away with the idea that their paladin should not have some method available to maximize it's dps, I take no responsibility for them because they're at least as bad at reading as you are, and probably worse (in fact, I invite you to return to section 3 of the guide and prove that they are by counting).

    Seriously, without including a section on how to create those kind of builds, the thread would be nothing but questions about how to make them, because its an incredibly popular character concept that people want to play.

    Go on and browse through the first 3 pages of responses. I don't think you're in mortal danger of a pack of shield-using paladins belaying your epic quest runs any time soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimVerg View Post
    Haven't checked because it's a bit asinine to be arguing over who has the higher dps in dps mode on their ac tank, but fighter haste boost(if you can fit it in) probably gives fighters higher dps over 5 minute fights.
    While I'd certainly agree that that is highly likely to be the case, I'd be a lot more interested in matt either providing constructive information for people building paladins or to go back to the fighter forum and create a thread so that i don't see fighter icons and immediately assume that the character is worthless, which is pretty much what I assume without exception if I don't know the player. Not even paladins or monks are as likely to be completely worthless characters in random pugs. I couldn't tell you the last time I grouped with a character with more than 12 fighter levels who I didn't know and wasn't an utter gimp. At least a fair segment of 18/2 and 20 twf paladin builds migrate through lfms.

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