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  1. #61
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post


    Seph, I'm going to give some more extended treatment to max dex bonus, but at this time I have no intention of altering the section about tower shields, as I think that this moment of parity is quite short; as soon as we get another epic content, whether its the vons or gianthold, there will be epic tower shields that renew the issue, and since the vons is probably first, it won't even give free proficiency. You'll notice I in general avoided the specifics even of DT vs mith vs EVoIL, since by the time any character created with this build is capped and getting that gear, there will be new gear to deal with. I avoided equipment on purpose.
    Yeah, the equipment thing is a slippery slope and all of that info is available for anyone who spends a moment searching. Still, I think that merely mentioning the fact that there is a decent tower shield for which you don't need the feat, and a few late game heavy shields of comparable AC is worth the line or two.

    What tower shield comes from the VoN series?

    I think elaborating upon your thoughts about max Dex is a good idea.

    Anyway, I think this suggestion was of less importance than the others I put down in the same post. Thoughts on that stuff (skills, Holy Sword, etc...)?
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  2. #62
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Yeah, the equipment thing is a slippery slope and all of that info is available for anyone who spends a moment searching. Still, I think that merely mentioning the fact that there is a decent tower shield for which you don't need the feat, and a few late game heavy shields of comparable AC is worth the line or two.

    What tower shield comes from the VoN series?

    I think elaborating upon your thoughts about max Dex is a good idea.

    Anyway, I think this suggestion was of less importance than the others I put down in the same post. Thoughts on that stuff (skills, Holy Sword, etc...)?
    Kundarak Warding Shield is a tower that drops from the raid.

    Say hello to a +6 or 7 tower shield, and to us figuring out how to get its MDB high enough.

  3. #63
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Kundarak Warding Shield is a tower that drops from the raid.

    Say hello to a +6 or 7 tower shield, and to us figuring out how to get its MDB high enough.
    I thought it was a Large shield? The screenie on the Static Loot list says so. It'd be pretty nice if it became a +6 or +7, with a higher base AC, +5 resistance, and an open slot.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  4. #64
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I don't really see the net benefit of that over a basic 32 point, 17/14/17 human, which would have 3 more con and equivalent strength due to the human str enhancement

    If you're not pushing multiple stats on a drow build, it's just inferior to other races. A 36 point human would even have equitable dexterity, or more if you started at 12 con, which is still more than the drow has. The advantage to drow is taking multiple stats past 14 for 1 build point; if you're not getting that advantage, then they don't have one.
    I see your point and perhaps some of my numbers need a bit of more work. I was only trying to take advantage of the GTWF stat requirement of 17 dex and seeing if a tome could take the place of needing to use more stat points to achieve the same goal. Which it does in a way. Although the dev's haven't said anything about Perfect TWF as possible for after level 20, but they don't seem to be going that far. I mention it only because of that feat having a dex requirement of 21 in PnP. The reason itself for drow is because the former rogue that would be used to TR has sets of GS Rapiers already crafted. It was to save a bit of work on my part in order to not to have to scrap them. So I think with thus I will likely just lower/rearrange some stats a little and see what that gets me.

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  5. #65
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natakeu View Post
    I see your point and perhaps some of my numbers need a bit of more work. I was only trying to take advantage of the GTWF stat requirement of 17 dex and seeing if a tome could take the place of needing to use more stat points to achieve the same goal. Which it does in a way. Although the dev's haven't said anything about Perfect TWF as possible for after level 20, but they don't seem to be going that far. I mention it only because of that feat having a dex requirement of 21 in PnP. The reason itself for drow is because the former rogue that would be used to TR has sets of GS Rapiers already crafted. It was to save a bit of work on my part in order to not to have to scrap them. So I think with thus I will likely just lower/rearrange some stats a little and see what that gets me.
    I understand your goal, but drow dex only helps you do that if you are only using a +2 tome .. when you get to 3s and 4s, it stops being profitable.


    edit: seph, that's funny, you're right; the item I was thinking of is the heroism shield that drops from threnal, kumdarak troopers shield
    Last edited by Junts; 12-10-2009 at 03:38 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member natakeu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I understand your goal, but drow dex only helps you do that if you are only using a +2 tome .. when you get to 3s and 4s, it stops being profitable.
    Yeah I understand, mainly I was looking at it from the aspect of cheaper cha. I guess its something I will figure out as I travel down that lonely road the second TR through. Thanks

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  7. #67
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post

    edit: seph, that's funny, you're right; the item I was thinking of is the heroism shield that drops from threnal, kumdarak troopers shield
    Haha. No problem. All the similarly named items and quests and abilities get muddled together for everyone from time to time.

    Man, I haven't run Threnal in so long. I think I need to get my character in that range in there, if only to re-experience the quests.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  8. #68
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    Default Wisdom Item

    This guide is fantastic, thank you very much for all the helpful info in one place. I do have a question/suggestion for improvement however. Since the convential advice seems to be to start a new paladin with 8 wisdom, it would be helpful to know if there is a farmable +6wisdom item that a level 13-14 character would be able to acquire. ATM on the newer servers (Cannith & Orien), I haven't seen any 6 wis items for sale at all at any price, and if/when they do become available, I'm not sure if they will be affordable for a newer player without a lot of gold in the bank. If there are no 6wis items that are farmable/quest reward, it would be helpful to have some AH more likely turn up a 6wis item (ie is there a certain minimum level for 6wis, best slots to search under, etc) With 8 starting wis, and little access to money or tomes, a 6 wis item is going to be essential. As you pointed out, "Holy Sword" is a great spell, unless of course you don't have enough wisdom to actually cast it. A small section added to the wisdom section of the guide (or even the Holy Sword section) would be a helpful addition. Thanks again for the guide

  9. #69
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posterboy View Post
    This guide is fantastic, thank you very much for all the helpful info in one place. I do have a question/suggestion for improvement however. Since the convential advice seems to be to start a new paladin with 8 wisdom, it would be helpful to know if there is a farmable +6wisdom item that a level 13-14 character would be able to acquire. ATM on the newer servers (Cannith & Orien), I haven't seen any 6 wis items for sale at all at any price, and if/when they do become available, I'm not sure if they will be affordable for a newer player without a lot of gold in the bank. If there are no 6wis items that are farmable/quest reward, it would be helpful to have some AH more likely turn up a 6wis item (ie is there a certain minimum level for 6wis, best slots to search under, etc) With 8 starting wis, and little access to money or tomes, a 6 wis item is going to be essential. As you pointed out, "Holy Sword" is a great spell, unless of course you don't have enough wisdom to actually cast it. A small section added to the wisdom section of the guide (or even the Holy Sword section) would be a helpful addition. Thanks again for the guide
    I'll take a look at this when I do some max dex edits; +stat items all have the same mls though:

    5: +2
    7: +3
    9: +4
    11: +5
    13: +6

    Those are for plain +stat items; -2 for race required versions, and of course other modifiers increase the ml. Wisdom can spawn on random helms, necklaces and rings. Getting a ml 13 +6 wis item might be slightly difficult, but a +6, ml 15 wisdom item should be quite cheap.

    Lastly, there's Lorikk's Necklace, a 6 wis / 150 sp necklace that is an extremely common drop from Hound of Xoriat that is a great item for new paladins, since it also provides buffing sp. On established servers the item is almost always vendored, on orien/cannith it may be wanted by more cle/fvs, but I doubt it is a highly prized item either.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    5: +2
    7: +3
    9: +4
    11: +5
    13: +6
    Just wanted to throw out there that the Sharn Syndicate quests reward no ML BtA +2 stat items and +5 skill items.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I'll take a look at this when I do some max dex edits; +stat items all have the same mls though:

    5: +2
    7: +3
    9: +4
    11: +5
    13: +6

    Those are for plain +stat items; -2 for race required versions, and of course other modifiers increase the ml. Wisdom can spawn on random helms, necklaces and rings. Getting a ml 13 +6 wis item might be slightly difficult, but a +6, ml 15 wisdom item should be quite cheap.

    Lastly, there's Lorikk's Necklace, a 6 wis / 150 sp necklace that is an extremely common drop from Hound of Xoriat that is a great item for new paladins, since it also provides buffing sp. On established servers the item is almost always vendored, on orien/cannith it may be wanted by more cle/fvs, but I doubt it is a highly prized item either.
    Exactly the info I needed, the mls for the stats was helpful enough, the -2 for race req I never would have guessed (another reason for paladin UMD!), and knowing the necklace name to look for at the AH will save a lot of pointless searching. You deserved the rep for the guide anyway, but I added it for the quick and incredibly helpful response instead.

  12. #72
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posterboy View Post
    This guide is fantastic, thank you very much for all the helpful info in one place. I do have a question/suggestion for improvement however. Since the convential advice seems to be to start a new paladin with 8 wisdom, it would be helpful to know if there is a farmable +6wisdom item that a level 13-14 character would be able to acquire. ATM on the newer servers (Cannith & Orien), I haven't seen any 6 wis items for sale at all at any price, and if/when they do become available, I'm not sure if they will be affordable for a newer player without a lot of gold in the bank. If there are no 6wis items that are farmable/quest reward, it would be helpful to have some AH more likely turn up a 6wis item (ie is there a certain minimum level for 6wis, best slots to search under, etc) With 8 starting wis, and little access to money or tomes, a 6 wis item is going to be essential. As you pointed out, "Holy Sword" is a great spell, unless of course you don't have enough wisdom to actually cast it. A small section added to the wisdom section of the guide (or even the Holy Sword section) would be a helpful addition. Thanks again for the guide
    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I'll take a look at this when I do some max dex edits; +stat items all have the same mls though:

    5: +2
    7: +3
    9: +4
    11: +5
    13: +6

    Those are for plain +stat items; -2 for race required versions, and of course other modifiers increase the ml. Wisdom can spawn on random helms, necklaces and rings. Getting a ml 13 +6 wis item might be slightly difficult, but a +6, ml 15 wisdom item should be quite cheap.

    Lastly, there's Lorikk's Necklace, a 6 wis / 150 sp necklace that is an extremely common drop from Hound of Xoriat that is a great item for new paladins, since it also provides buffing sp. On established servers the item is almost always vendored, on orien/cannith it may be wanted by more cle/fvs, but I doubt it is a highly prized item either.
    While it takes quite a bit longer to acquire if you don't have a higher level character in the Shroud already, an Existential Stalemate item (tier II, not III, so much easier to make) has +6 Wis on it. There are also named items from the Abbot (helm) and VoN (helm).

    Also, keep in mind that +5 along with a +1 tome will accomplish the same task. The only named item with +5 Wis on it is the Ring of Stormreaver Prophecy (Gianthold Tor).
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #73
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posterboy View Post
    Exactly the info I needed, the mls for the stats was helpful enough, the -2 for race req I never would have guessed (another reason for paladin UMD!), and knowing the necklace name to look for at the AH will save a lot of pointless searching. You deserved the rep for the guide anyway, but I added it for the quick and incredibly helpful response instead.
    lorikk's necklace is a raid drop: its bound to character, but the Hound of Xoriat is probably the single most pugged raid in the entire game, and I doubt that's any less true on Orien or Cannith. There's only 8 raid items in the raid, and the necklace has the highest droprate of all of them. You're nearly guaranteed to see the item in 3-5 runs. Its minimum level 14.

    Start joining Hound Pugs as soon as you're level 14 or so to look for it. Even if you aren't getting exp, the loot is worth it. Its a fast, very easy raid that even pugs can only rarely screw up.

  14. #74
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    lorikk's necklace is a raid drop: its bound to character, but the Hound of Xoriat is probably the single most pugged raid in the entire game, and I doubt that's any less true on Orien or Cannith. There's only 8 raid items in the raid, and the necklace has the highest droprate of all of them. You're nearly guaranteed to see the item in 3-5 runs. Its minimum level 14.

    Start joining Hound Pugs as soon as you're level 14 or so to look for it. Even if you aren't getting exp, the loot is worth it. Its a fast, very easy raid that even pugs can only rarely screw up.
    Good advice, but I don't know if you'd include that last part if you had been in some of the PUGs I have!
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  15. #75
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post

    ...Its a fast, very easy raid that even pugs can only rarely screw up.

    Wait...it's possible for a PUG NOT to screw up??? o_O

    Since when???



  16. #76
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Good advice, but I don't know if you'd include that last part if you had been in some of the PUGs I have!

    its the Hound. I was in a normal hound one night at 3 am this spring, back at 16. At the portal I realized the reason no one was talking is that 9 or so of the group members knew each other irl and had just been out drinking all night and were sloppy drunk

    The other two puggers were the clerics. We coordinated in tells real quick, I ran around, whacked each dog once to make sure I had aggro, grabbed the stones, charmed all 3 dogs, then went off and killed trash until we completed. When we finished the raid, team drunk had 1 kill: xyzzy. And that was totally ok. They could have not even been in the raid, though it was handy of them to hold aggro on Xyzzy by standing there while I charmed.

    Seriously, that raid is so easy it can be done by 4 people without even noticing you're short-manning.

    I don't think even pugs can screw it up, not on normal, not at 20. Not without intentional griefing.

  17. #77
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    its the Hound. I was in a normal hound one night at 3 am this spring, back at 16. At the portal I realized the reason no one was talking is that 9 or so of the group members knew each other irl and had just been out drinking all night and were sloppy drunk

    The other two puggers were the clerics. We coordinated in tells real quick, I ran around, whacked each dog once to make sure I had aggro, grabbed the stones, charmed all 3 dogs, then went off and killed trash until we completed. When we finished the raid, team drunk had 1 kill: xyzzy. And that was totally ok. They could have not even been in the raid, though it was handy of them to hold aggro on Xyzzy by standing there while I charmed.

    Seriously, that raid is so easy it can be done by 4 people without even noticing you're short-manning.

    I don't think even pugs can screw it up, not on normal, not at 20. Not without intentional griefing.
    You know, I was going to respond with something like: Junts is probably just so badass that he can make any PUG successful. And there ya go!

    Honestly, though, I think that was a better situation to be in than the usual bad PUG, because you knew from the get go that you were going to have to compensate for several people. Normally, that is not the case. The Hound PUGs I've been in recently that have failed did so because some people who seemed competent (or at least that they could follow directions) screwed something up...like the bard running right into Xyxxy after charming one dog.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  18. #78
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    You know, I was going to respond with something like: Junts is probably just so badass that he can make any PUG successful. And there ya go!

    Honestly, though, I think that was a better situation to be in than the usual bad PUG, because you knew from the get go that you were going to have to compensate for several people. Normally, that is not the case. The Hound PUGs I've been in recently that have failed did so because some people who seemed competent (or at least that they could follow directions) screwed something up...like the bard running right into Xyxxy after charming one dog.
    rofl

    Ok


    I find that just assuming anyone you dont know by reputation is probably not going to be very effective works out; anything they do contribute is then a pleasant surprise.

  19. #79
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Hey Junts, what's the math for the damage increase on Smite?

    I couldn't find it doing a goggle search*, but I figured you'd know. I just keep finding the same "damage increases based on Paladin level" stuff I already knew! V_V



    *: goggle searches: DDO + Smite, DDO + Smite + Forum, DDO + Smite + Wiki, + DDO + Wiki, DDO + Paladin, DDO + Paladin + Smite.

  20. #80
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Hey Junts, what's the math for the damage increase on Smite?

    I couldn't find it doing a goggle search*, but I figured you'd know. I just keep finding the same "damage increases based on Paladin level" stuff I already knew! V_V



    *: goggle searches: DDO + Smite, DDO + Smite + Forum, DDO + Smite + Wiki, + DDO + Wiki, DDO + Paladin, DDO + Paladin + Smite.
    7 + (3 * pal level)

    61 for an 18p build, 67 for one that's capped.

    That variation rarely amounts to much; whether you can afford, effectively, 11 action points for Exalted Smite 4 is usually the toughie.

    the ES enhancements go +1 mult, +1 range, +1 mult, +1 range, but Exalted Smite 3 requires Extra Smiting 4 (which is otherwise a terrible enhancement), so picking up exalted 3/4 actually costs you 4+3+4 action points. Similarly, +1 mult on smites is pretty poor as well (its not enough added damage given how infrequent critical smites are overall), so the 7 AP it costs for exalted 3 is usually a pretty bad investment .. but Exalted 4 is pretty solid if you can afford the whole kit and kaboodle, since it increases the frequency of exalted 1/3/normal smite multiplication by quite a bit.

    That's why you'll usually see that tank builds cap out at Extra 3/Exalted 2. To be honest, the Extra 4/Exalted 3-4 line is a vanity enhancement, spending 1/8th your total AP on it is probably the single worst gain of damage per AP spent available to the paladin. They are, however, really fun, since there's nothing in DDO that's quite as cool as running up to a high level mob, initiating combat with the smite evil key, and getting double 550 crits and having it die instantly.

    In practice, though, that's exceptionally rare and not that important in most combat, since you get so few chances at it and they regenerate so slowly. it takes about 2:45 of combat for spamming divine sacrifice to do more damage than burning all your smite charges (including regeneration) on average, and most serious dps fights are roughly that long or longer (the only one that's shorter is Arraetrikos pt 4, which is no longer remotely challenging).

    Pure DPS builds that are feeling the AP pinch of having to buy capstone+dm4+divine sac 3 are really well advised to look into dropping back to Exalted 2 to pick up action points. In fact, some drow/elf builds might find they gain more damage from adding the full +2 to hit and extra +1 to damage from rapier enhanccements they might not otherwise be able to afford (which costs 10 ap) instead of those 11 AP of smite enhancements. Drow/elves running epic content should do this as a no-brainer, since the to-hit is so exceptionally valuable there.

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