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  1. #761
    Community Member Jandric's Avatar
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    Sometimes I've noticed that you need to apply previous enhancements before it'll let you select the the ones with pre-reqs (ie. must have 20 AP spent for this.) Apply up to a certain point, then try searching for available enhancements again.

  2. #762
    Community Member Whitehairguy's Avatar
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    I just figured it out! I have my feats all trained wrong. Can't go back and change much until I get Siberys Dragonshards. My toon is boned.

  3. #763
    Community Member manumase's Avatar
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    just thought this might be worth bumping since the forums changed

  4. #764
    Community Member Iwinbyrollup's Avatar
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    Any thoughts on half-elves?

    I am considering a TWF half-elf KotC paladin with rogue dilettante for a TR, but am thinking that it's possibly too tight on the feat selection and action point distribution (and, to a lesser extent, skill points). Feat selection would be something like Toughness, TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Khopesh Proficiency, Power Attack, and IC. Main loss versus going human (likely alternative choice) or drow (with rapiers) is no Extend. I feel like I could go with a different weapon type than Khopesh, but I imagine the improvement Khopesh offers is probably better than up to 3d6 sneak attack damage (perhaps not the case if the SA was always there, but it's not).

    AP is a bit of a mess, of course, as race enhancements end up being somewhere around 12 AP (adaptability/greater adaptability/improved dilettante I/II, and then more for anything else), on top of everything else. Granted, with a human I'd almost certainly be devoting over 6 AP to race enhancements anyway. Also, I could ditch Improved Dilettante II if needed; it's the same AP cost as DMIV with an extra 1.5 average damage over DMIV, but only when sneak attacking anyway so yeah.

    I looked back through this thread but saw little regarding the viability of half-elf builds for paladins. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether or not I'd be giving up too much going this route. Otherwise, it would be fun to try, but I'd hate to trash my pally on a TR, especially since I don't level my characters particularly quick.

    (I'm trying to keep my questions somewhat general rather than build-specific. While I've given a bit more specific details in regards to what I'm thinking, my general question is mostly whether or not the benefits one can gain from a half-elf dilettante feat and at least some of the associated racial enhancements can outweigh the losses elsewhere. I hope it's still appropriate for the thread.)
    Last edited by Iwinbyrollup; 03-14-2011 at 06:08 PM.
    Khyber: Carinn (TR 18 Sorcerer) -- Kyrainne (TR 20 Paladin) -- Arrail (TR 20 Favored Soul) -- Aoede (18 Bard) -- Terrabourne (20 Ranger) -- Ankhalla (20 Monk) -- Cylanna (20 Rogue)
    The Lifeguard: A Swimcleric build

  5. #765
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwinbyrollup View Post
    Any thoughts on half-elves?

    I am considering a TWF half-elf KotC paladin with rogue dilettante for a TR, but am thinking that it's possibly too tight on the feat selection and action point distribution (and, to a lesser extent, skill points). Feat selection would be something like Toughness, TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Khopesh Proficiency, Power Attack, and IC. Main loss versus going human (likely alternative choice) or drow (with rapiers) is no Extend. I feel like I could go with a different weapon type than Khopesh, but I imagine the improvement Khopesh offers is probably better than up to 3d6 sneak attack damage (perhaps not the case if the SA was always there, but it's not).

    AP is a bit of a mess, of course, as race enhancements end up being somewhere around 12 AP (adaptability/greater adaptability/improved dilettante I/II, and then more for anything else), on top of everything else. Granted, with a human I'd almost certainly be devoting over 6 AP to race enhancements anyway. Also, I could ditch Improved Dilettante II if needed; it's the same AP cost as DMIV with an extra 1.5 average damage over DMIV, but only when sneak attacking anyway so yeah.

    I looked back through this thread but saw little regarding the viability of half-elf builds for paladins. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether or not I'd be giving up too much going this route. Otherwise, it would be fun to try, but I'd hate to trash my pally on a TR, especially since I don't level my characters particularly quick.

    (I'm trying to keep my questions somewhat general rather than build-specific. While I've given a bit more specific details in regards to what I'm thinking, my general question is mostly whether or not the benefits one can gain from a half-elf dilettante feat and at least some of the associated racial enhancements can outweigh the losses elsewhere. I hope it's still appropriate for the thread.)
    This is what my TR will be whenever I get a +4 CHA tome.

    If you can't do without Extend, I wouldn't do it.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Female
    (20 Paladin) 
    Hit Points: 342
    Spell Points: 275 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 22
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 13
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
    Strength             15                 22                   23
    Dexterity            15                 17                   17
    Constitution         14                 16                   16
    Intelligence         10                 12                   12
    Wisdom                8                 10                   10
    Charisma             16                 20                   20
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 19
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
    Balance               2                  3                    3
    Bluff                 3                  5                    5
    Concentration         6                 26                   26
    Diplomacy             3                  5                    5
    Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                3                  5                    5
    Heal                 -1                  0                    0
    Hide                  2                  3                    3
    Intimidate            3                  5                    5
    Jump                  2                 12                   12
    Listen               -1                  0                    0
    Move Silently         2                  3                    3
    Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                0                  1                    1
    Search                0                  1                    1
    Spot                 -1                  0                    0
    Swim                  2                  6                    6
    Tumble                3                  4                    4
    Use Magic Device      4                 16                   16
    
    Level 1 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack
    Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
    Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
    Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
    Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
    Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
    Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
    Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead
    Spell (1): Bless
    Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
    Spell (1): Divine Favor
    Spell (1): Lesser Restoration
    Spell (1): Lionheart
    Spell (1): Protection From Evil
    Spell (1): Resistance
    Spell (1): Seek Eternal Rest
    Spell (1): Virtue
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 8 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Angelskin
    Spell (2): Bull's Strength
    Spell (2): Eagle's Spendor
    Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
    Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
    Spell (2): Resist Energy
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Spell (3): Dispel Magic
    Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
    Spell (3): Prayer
    Spell (3): Remove Blindness
    Spell (3): Remove Curse
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Spell (4): Break Enchantment
    Spell (4): Cure Serious Wounds
    Spell (4): Deathward
    Spell (4): Holy Sword
    Spell (4): Neutralize Poison
    Spell (4): Restoration
    Spell (4): Stalwart Pact
    Spell (4): Zeal
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+0.5)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
    Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
    Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

  6. #766
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    I think helf could be viable for a DPS paladin build. I might consider using scimitars or rapiers over khopeshes in order to fit in Extend, though. As Junts pointed out somewhere else, it hurts a lot not having it.
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  7. #767
    Community Member Iwinbyrollup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    This is what my TR will be whenever I get a +4 CHA tome.

    If you can't do without Extend, I wouldn't do it.
    This build looks a lot like what I am thinking. I'm still trying to gauge how I'd feel about trying it without Extend; it only just now occurred to me that I should try turning off Extend on my Paladin for a bit and seeing how it goes. At the very least, I expect that I'll be crafting a Green Steel SP item. Currently I'm running my Paladin with neither Power/Wizardry or any form of Elemental Spell Power, so I imagine that will make a big difference when I get a few hundred extra SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I think helf could be viable for a DPS paladin build. I might consider using scimitars or rapiers over khopeshes in order to fit in Extend, though. As Junts pointed out somewhere else, it hurts a lot not having it.
    I am considering going scimitar instead of khopesh, which gets some advantage in the improved critical range for Divine Sacrifice and Smites. If I did that, I'd definitely throw Extend in there.

    One of the things I'm particularly curious about is how much of a hassle rebuffing will be. Keeping my general attack buffs (Divine Favor and Zeal) going for 4 minutes costs 55 SP with Extend and 70 SP without, which isn't a huge difference except in content where battles run long--which is, of course, the content where it's most important to have the buffs running.

    Which actually makes me think of a partially-related question: if I'm in the middle of a battle and my buffs run out, should I be recasting them? Or am I losing more than I'm gaining from doing so? Most battles generally get enough downtime built in that I can wait to recast when they do run out, so it's usually not an issue, but there are exceptions every now and then.

    At the very least, it sounds like there might be some disadvantages and I might end up deciding I want something else as I level a character this way, but I wouldn't be totally gimping myself or making my life miserable trying to level the character by going half-elf. I like to try new things!
    Khyber: Carinn (TR 18 Sorcerer) -- Kyrainne (TR 20 Paladin) -- Arrail (TR 20 Favored Soul) -- Aoede (18 Bard) -- Terrabourne (20 Ranger) -- Ankhalla (20 Monk) -- Cylanna (20 Rogue)
    The Lifeguard: A Swimcleric build

  8. #768
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    I think you'd find given the frequency of 25 and 50% fort on epic mobs that you're better off not basing more of your dps in sneak attacks, but it might be higher 'on paper' dps, especially if you primarily don't run epic content.

    Extend is something you can learn to live without, but the adjustment takes some practice.

  9. #769
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwinbyrollup View Post
    This build looks a lot like what I am thinking. I'm still trying to gauge how I'd feel about trying it without Extend; it only just now occurred to me that I should try turning off Extend on my Paladin for a bit and seeing how it goes. At the very least, I expect that I'll be crafting a Green Steel SP item. Currently I'm running my Paladin with neither Power/Wizardry or any form of Elemental Spell Power, so I imagine that will make a big difference when I get a few hundred extra SP.
    That's what I'd suggest.

    I started out as a Drow with rapiers, then later switched over to Khopeshes, so I don't have Extend. I don't miss it anymore, since I'm used to not having it, though sometimes my buffs run out in the middle of a battle, which is annoying.

    I'm not sure there's any sort of hard rule about rebuffing in combat, though getting the +3 attack back from Divine Favour is probably a must in some circumstance, and since you're already rebuffing at that point...

    The main one I don't rebuff is Divine Might, since it only lasts for 60 seconds and takes a relatively long time to rebuff, though if I have to run somewhere (say from killing Suulo back to Horoth, or chasing after the Abbott after he teleports) I rebuff it then.

  10. #770
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    That's what I'd suggest.

    I started out as a Drow with rapiers, then later switched over to Khopeshes, so I don't have Extend. I don't miss it anymore, since I'm used to not having it, though sometimes my buffs run out in the middle of a battle, which is annoying.

    I'm not sure there's any sort of hard rule about rebuffing in combat, though getting the +3 attack back from Divine Favour is probably a must in some circumstance, and since you're already rebuffing at that point...

    The main one I don't rebuff is Divine Might, since it only lasts for 60 seconds and takes a relatively long time to rebuff, though if I have to run somewhere (say from killing Suulo back to Horoth, or chasing after the Abbott after he teleports) I rebuff it then.
    Unless you have divine might 1, its worth the gap it takes to reuse it in terms of sustained dps.

  11. #771
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    Unless you have divine might 1, its worth the gap it takes to reuse it in terms of sustained dps.
    Alright.

    I admittedly hadn't done any calculations to see which is better. I'll start hitting it again.

  12. #772
    Community Member Zogdor's Avatar
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    So, I'm just about ready to TR my Elf Paladin and I'm looking for a high DPS build. He's a THF KotC Pally (using mostly falchions, although I also made a GS Lit II greataxe) and I'd like to keep it that way if possible. Any suggestions as to which race to choose? I have +3 cha and +3 con tomes to use, and a +2 str tome too.
    Last edited by Zogdor; 03-15-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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  13. #773
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    Default more questions on TWF Drow builds:

    more questions on TWF Drow builds:

    In the first post it talks about one and two strike "animations". My best guess is that this is out of date, and that the new %chance of an off-hand hit is used. I suspect that the advice of "take extend at level 6" is best for the following toons:

    First/unfinanced toons who are unlikely to buy a +1 dex tome at 5th level.
    Twinked toons with clean +4 wisdom items and/or a carnifex waiting in the shared bank.

    If you can't time your divine sacrifices to match double swings, it would certainly help to take ITWF and rack up more two-weapon strikes. On the other hand, I suspect carnifex's crit profile will get you most of the way there, especially if you don't have improved critical. For those of us who have to learn to live without extend, it looks like when (or if) to take extend isn't quite clear. I suspect that khopesh will tempt me, but drow racial damage + extend is better.

  14. #774
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    more questions on TWF Drow builds:

    In the first post it talks about one and two strike "animations". My best guess is that this is out of date, and that the new %chance of an off-hand hit is used. I suspect that the advice of "take extend at level 6" is best for the following toons:

    First/unfinanced toons who are unlikely to buy a +1 dex tome at 5th level.
    Twinked toons with clean +4 wisdom items and/or a carnifex waiting in the shared bank.

    If you can't time your divine sacrifices to match double swings, it would certainly help to take ITWF and rack up more two-weapon strikes. On the other hand, I suspect carnifex's crit profile will get you most of the way there, especially if you don't have improved critical. For those of us who have to learn to live without extend, it looks like when (or if) to take extend isn't quite clear. I suspect that khopesh will tempt me, but drow racial damage + extend is better.
    Really, you're better off with extend until you have at least a high end wizardry item, if not shroud bonus spell points. Maintaining both divine favor and zeal with only a magi item and a wisdom item is extremely difficult.

  15. #775
    Community Member manumase's Avatar
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    junts i was wondering if you could put a build up for a tank pally full 20? with the changes to intimidate now i believe myself that defender of siberys is better than knights of the chalice, i want to lesser my first 2hf pally into a tank defender of siberys, i have access to +2 tomes am 32 point human, (the second pally is a fun pally) all i want is a quick and simple build, i want the capstone so dont want to take the 2 fighter lives

    (i understand playing a pally, just scared of making a bad 1 myself)

  16. #776
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manumase View Post
    junts i was wondering if you could put a build up for a tank pally full 20? with the changes to intimidate now i believe myself that defender of siberys is better than knights of the chalice, i want to lesser my first 2hf pally into a tank defender of siberys, i have access to +2 tomes am 32 point human, (the second pally is a fun pally) all i want is a quick and simple build, i want the capstone so dont want to take the 2 fighter lives

    (i understand playing a pally, just scared of making a bad 1 myself)
    That's what my paladin tank is now, and I have some instructions on playing a less-twinked/not 36 pt version in that build's thread. You can find a link to on the first page of the thread.

    I don't really intend to keep a sample tank build, because they're notoriously unfriendly as first characters, and the main purpose of the guide is to keep people who're new to the game/class from making a character that is very powerful at low levels (because paladins are really overpowered from lv 4-10ish) that ends up sucking badly at high levels.

  17. #777
    Community Member manumase's Avatar
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    yeh i started noticing that on my first paladin, i used your 32 point 2hf dps build, it does well yeh, but i think she would be ripped apart in epics

  18. #778
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    I guess you are busy playing, but will there be a U9 version of this guide?
    Toons on Orien: Meinir // Flodur // Twiddler // Thorkar // Impetor // Juliacantor // Minor all Soko Irrlicht
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  19. #779
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    I guess you are busy playing, but will there be a U9 version of this guide?
    Yep though few of the core things changed, there needs to be some updates to terminology and autocrit stuff etc.

    The principles haven't changed, however.

  20. #780
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Updated.

    One of tehse days Ill even update the build templates. Anyone who wants to create generic template builds for thf or twf should feel free to pm them to me and not take it personally if I dont respond for a week or more.

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