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  1. #1
    Community Member leadhead's Avatar
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    Default Information on critical hits...

    I am not a super serious detail oriented player, but I find that I spend a good percentage of game time trying to figure out proper weapon sets. Narrowing it down seems to be impossible since I think I currently have like 10 of them LOL!

    I basically have a tactical policy that if I cant figure it out, I will run one fire weapon and one holy weapon (twf) since most everything I have run into is of evil alignment and Zombies/undead seem to comprise a large portion of dungeon content. But I find having a cold weapon and ghost touch weapon very usefull also.

    A while back I took a thundering vertigo rapier from a quest and just recently, I found some maiming longsword in a chest (didnt know what it was but definitely kept it since it had the word maiming in it...thats rad and I want to maim people). each of these weapons do 1d6 and 2d6 extra damage on a critical hit. My regular fire and holy axes do 2d6 (something like that) on every hit.

    Going with that, it seems that my axes are the no brainer choice until you add the critical stuff into it. The vertigo rapier has a 15% chance to critical and the maiming longsword has a 20% chance. Being dual wield, this gives me a 35% chance to critical hit. The axes are 5% each giving me 10% critical chance...

    However, this cant be the true number right? I am assuming that I have to roll a good number on a d20 to make the attack eligible for some kind of 2d10 critical roll? How are criticals determined? Should I be looking at this differently?

    Figuring out optimal weapon sets in this game is more complicated than the healthcare bill!

    General thoughts on weapon sets, tactics and criticals all welcome suggestions.

  2. #2
    Community Member Karters's Avatar
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    for a longsword u have to roll a 19 or 20 to crit, then u also have to confirm the crit (another roll agianst the mobs ac). if u take improve crit slashing it doubles the chance, so u need a 17-20 to crit. a rapier is 18-20 normal and with improve crit pierce its 15-20.

    before the shroud came out all my dps toons would have some type of holy burst of pg, axiomatic/anarchic of pg, shocking/flaming/icy burst of pg, and also the power 5 (para vorp banishing smiting and disruptor). now they mostly just carry 2 or 3 shroud weapons along with vorp and high crit smiters/banishers

  3. #3
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    It really depends on your build, your level, etc.

    But in general, a high crit range makes a better weapon, especially if it has a burst effect on it. If you are using rapiers, you should pick up improved critical pierce. That will double the crit range of the rapiers. So if a piercing weapon has an 18-20 crit range, Improved Critical: Pierce will double that to 15-20, so rolling anywhere between a 15 to 20 will give you a chance to crit. Seeker items will improve the crit confirmation roll, which is why a lot of people "seek" out the bloodstone.

  4. #4
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leadhead View Post

    Going with that, it seems that my axes are the no brainer choice until you add the critical stuff into it. The vertigo rapier has a 15% chance to critical and the maiming longsword has a 20% chance. Being dual wield, this gives me a 35% chance to critical hit. The axes are 5% each giving me 10% critical chance...

    However, this cant be the true number right?
    No it's not right. This is a common statistical fallacy for people that haven't been enlightened as to how probability works.

    If you have a 15% crit chance and 20% crit chance, you don't get 35% chance to crit. You get two chances to crit, one is at 15% and one is 20%. Each roll is independent and one probability doesn't affect the other. They are discrete. So using both weapons, you definitely have a higher chance to crit but it's because you are using both weapons so you get two rolls to crit at higher than normal chance.

    You can't even average the chance to crit because that would also be fallacious. As well, previous attempts to crit failing do not affect your current roll in any way shape or form. It's possible to get 3 crits in a row, or none for 15 successful hits, assuming DDO's random number generator is really random. The quality of pseudo random number generation varies depending on what the seed is and the algorithm used to generate the numbers.

    The best solution is a hardware add in card that utilizes quantum randomness.

    It's very very interesting stuff and as a ddo player, you'll get a lot out of researching probability and randomness that will help you understand D&D better.

    Cheers!

  5. #5
    Community Member leadhead's Avatar
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    I have a 6 bard/ 1 fighter... I suppose I might be able to cram a critical feat in there... I could also take the fighter enhancement to confirm criticals.

    But to be clear, the % number on the weapon is the confirm % so really the crit percentage is much much lower...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    You can't even average the chance to crit because that would also be fallacious. As well, previous attempts to crit failing do not affect your current roll in any way shape or form. It's possible to get 3 crits in a row, or none for 15 successful hits, assuming DDO's random number generator is really random. The quality of pseudo random number generation varies depending on what the seed is and the algorithm used to generate the numbers.
    The only way I've ever seen the percentages even out is in a very large collection of data. You can't say 50% chance to crit, and then swing 10 times and expect half of them to crit. You may get 2 crits, you may get 7, but out of 1000 swings, it "should" average out to around 500 crits.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by leadhead View Post
    I have a 6 bard/ 1 fighter... I suppose I might be able to cram a critical feat in there... I could also take the fighter enhancement to confirm criticals.

    But to be clear, the % number on the weapon is the confirm % so really the crit percentage is much much lower...
    If the weapon says 19-20 x2, then that means you have to roll a 19 or 20 to get a chance to confirm a critical, if you do confirm, then it does double (x2) damage. Different weapons have different multipliers, some are x3 or x4 damage.

  8. #8
    Community Member M.ham's Avatar
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    AFAIK the critical works like this:

    1. You always critical on a natural 20.
    2. Some weapons have a expanded critical range i.e. 19-20, 17-20 etc.
    3. Some weapons have a chance to score a critical if the roll falls somewhere within a range, this is the 10%, 15% numbers you see.
    4. Once you score a citical hit you have to roll again to confirm the critical hit... this is a simple to hit roll including modifiers and there are effects which are + to confirm critical ex. seeker or items like the Bloodstone.
    5. Weapons have a critical modifier... this is a modifier that multiplies the damage done. Look for the x2, x3, x4 at the end of the weapon description. Some effects do more damage on some weapons due to a higher critical multiplier ex. bursting/maiming.
    6. There are feats/effects/attacks that can modify the critical multiplier/range.
    7. There are effects that occur on a critical hit i.e. thundering, banishing, bursting, various stat drains etc.

    What you probably want to do is look at the weapon and determine what are the chances of of scoring a critical vs. the damage done. Say I have a Rapier of Banishing and a Rapier of Puncturing and I am venturing into the Vale, there are alot of extraplanar creatures there... what should I use? On a critical hit the banishing weapon is a one shot kill type of weapon (on the shavarath creatures) where the Puncturing will deal 1d6 CON damage. I would choose the Banishing effect for the Shavarath enemies and a the Puncturing effect for the Lamania enemies.

    Now say I have a Bursting weapon with a x3 critical multiplier and a Flaming of Pure Good weapon. If I score a critical with the bursting I will do 1d6 + 2d6 (not including weapon damge) but only on a critical whereas with the Flaming of Pure Good I will do 1d6 + 1d6 on every hit. So in that case it would make more sense to use the Flaming of Pure Good for more damage over time.

    Hope that helps.

    M.
    Last edited by M.ham; 11-17-2009 at 11:44 AM. Reason: spelling, changed wounding to puncturing.

  9. #9
    Community Member Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karters View Post
    for a longsword u have to roll a 19 or 20 to crit, then u also have to confirm the crit (another roll agianst the mobs ac). if u take improve crit slashing it doubles the chance, so u need a 17-20 to crit. a rapier is 18-20 normal and with improve crit pierce its 15-20.

    before the shroud came out all my dps toons would have some type of holy burst of pg, axiomatic/anarchic of pg, shocking/flaming/icy burst of pg, and also the power 5 (para vorp banishing smiting and disruptor). now they mostly just carry 2 or 3 shroud weapons along with vorp and high crit smiters/banishers
    this, tho in all honestly all you need are some shroud weapons and vorpals, endgame dcs are too crazy to try to smite or banish anything and dps becomes king, and nothing does more dps than shroud weapons (with a few exceptions like +5 anarchic burst silver of pure good etc...). also keep in mind, if you can't use pure good weapons (you are neutral which imo is the way to go since shroud weapons dont have alignment restrictions) then make sure you have some holy/holy burst weapons to make up for it.

  10. #10
    Community Member HallowedOne's Avatar
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    Another thing to consider: Maiming, Thundering, " X Burst" properties fo weapons also add the damage when scoring a critical hit, even if the creature has 100% fortification like undead and constructs - The fortification only negates the sneak attack extra damage and the multiplier of base physical damage.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.ham View Post
    AFAIK the critical works like this:
    It can be put more simply, to crit...

    *You must hit, with the d20 roll within the weapon's crit range, for your attack to be potential critical hit.
    *Now, to see if you confirm the critical, you roll to hit again, as normal, plus any bonuses from seeker weapons.
    *If you hit with this second roll, the strike is a critical hit. If you miss the second roll, it is a normal hit.

    So...

    If you are hitting on 11+ (50%) with a weapon which does crits on a 19-20 (10%), there is 10% chance you will score a potential critical hit. There is then a 50% chance you will confirm this, for a 5% overall chance.

    If you are hitting on 19+ (10%) with a weapon which does crits on a 18-20 (15%), and have a +2 (10%) seeker item, there is a 10% chance (rolling 18 misses, hence you cannot crit) you will score a potential critical hit. There is then a (10%+10%=) 20% chance you will confirm this, for a 2% overall chance. (Without the seeker it would be 10% chance of confirming, 1% overall)

    If you are hitting on a 2+ (95%) with a weapon which does crits on a 16-20 (25%) (An optimised Khopesh-wielding fighter build, for instance), then there is a 25% chance you will score a potential critical hit. There is then a 95% chance you will confirm this, for a 23.75% overall chance.
    Last edited by Dawn_Falcon; 11-17-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cedwin View Post
    The only way I've ever seen the percentages even out is in a very large collection of data. You can't say 50% chance to crit, and then swing 10 times and expect half of them to crit. You may get 2 crits, you may get 7, but out of 1000 swings, it "should" average out to around 500 crits.
    exactly. however if it's truly random, each data set will be different. It's theoretically possible, though unlikely, that out of 1000 swings you wouldn't crit once. The probability is that you would, but a probability is not a definitely.

    Weird things happen sometimes. Yesterday I was in Atraxia and two shotted a Duerger (did I spell that right?) caster. I landed 2 crits in a row, dual wielding x3 crit flaming burst weapons, both +2 (a khopesh and a battle axe). BIG numbers... He went down like a sack of potatoes. I've also had a mob do that to me (an elite troll on sorrowdusk).

    The saying "**** happens" definitely applies to ddo.
    Last edited by hermespan; 11-17-2009 at 11:51 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    exactly. however if it's truly random, each data set will be different. It's theoretically possible, though unlikely, that out of 1000 swings you wouldn't crit once. The probability is that you would, but a probability is not a definitely.
    ...You can easily calculate the exact crit percentsges you *should* be getting in D&D and DDO. So you can figure out if something is an upgrade or not...

  14. #14
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    while we're on the subject of crits, I have a question myself. Some mobs are immune to critical hits. Do the effects that only land on a critical (such as vorpal, the flaming burst damage etc) still work against them, even though you don't get the straight damage mod for landing a crit or is the hit treated as a normal one even applied to the effect that fires on a crit?

    I'm considering a intimitank super-save build with a focus on crits for using things like vorpals to occasionally dispatch hard to kill mobs when I get lucky but if the effects don't work against immune to crit mobs, I need to re-evaluate the concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    while we're on the subject of crits, I have a question myself. Some mobs are immune to critical hits. Do the effects that only land on a critical (such as vorpal, the flaming burst damage etc) still work against them, even though you don't get the straight damage mod for landing a crit or is the hit treated as a normal one even applied to the effect that fires on a crit?

    I'm considering a intimitank super-save build with a focus on crits for using things like vorpals to occasionally dispatch hard to kill mobs when I get lucky but if the effects don't work against immune to crit mobs, I need to re-evaluate the concept.
    Yes the effects work against anything immune to criticals, but you do not get the extra critical damage (x# modifier), although undead are immune to vorpal afaik.

  16. #16
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn_Falcon View Post
    ...You can easily calculate the exact crit percentsges you *should* be getting in D&D and DDO. So you can figure out if something is an upgrade or not...
    Definitely. What you can't calculate or predict is the number of times the dice will cooperate with your percentage That's what makes it random. You always know the probability, and it doesn't change from roll to roll, what you never know is what the dice will do next.

    If you could, we'd have a lot more successful professional gamblers than we do.

  17. #17
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    as everyone has given you answers on how criticals work.. I'll give you a different set of opinions. Weapon sets.

    1st. And this is my firm belief, everyone really should have a way to turtle up if you need to go into block and be defensive. Best AC adamantine shield you can find for this. It doesn't have to be in a weapon set, but you should have easy access for it. For me I create weapon set. Thrower returning w/ sheild. At high levels, the Madstone Shield is one of the best for turtling.

    2nd. A very solid bludgeoning set. Why? skeletons. They have DR bludgeoning. Can't crit hit them any way, so make the DPS count.

    3rd. A solid ghost touch weapon set. There are plenty of incorporeal in the game. True Seeing won't help you hit them. Typically they are undead, but there are live ones at current end game in the Inspired Quarter.

    4th. If you are a melee character, whatever weapon, style, etc. for generic high DPS. Generic meaning works on most things.

    5th. Slime/rust monster beater. Typically muckbane/muckdoom combos, but I have found that an maladroit everbright w/ Screaming Star combo is very sweet. Maladroit removes the dex of creatures allowing for crit hits, and the star does sonic damage on crits, as well as a roaring effect. Set set also will not split slimes. Neither weapons will take damage from the creatures.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Optional sets.

    Specific bane sets. I have a construct bane (due to portal beating) and elemental bane set myself.

    Stat damaging sets. Dropping things to zero con stuns them for 6 seconds. Dropping them to zero dex or str does not stun them, but if any are at zero, it is auto crit time.

    Disruption sets. This can sometimes make #2 and even #3 be not needed depending on the type of disruptor you have. Possibly pointless at high levels though. (granted, at high level, holy disruptors still work quite nicely.)

    Banishing sets. Depending on the quest, it can be worthless and better to go with DPS/stat damaging. But when you've got a decent shot of banishing the outsiders, really darn useful.

    Smiting sets. Same as a banishing set in value.

    metalline sets. These were once a "beat everything" weapon, but no more. Now you have to find a metalline flametouched iron/pg to have close to a beat everything weapon. At times these weapons will be the best you have to beat down certain raid bosses.

  18. #18
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    I'm glad to see this thread here. I have a question about a specific weapon descriptor combo I've seen. My main is a barbarian, and while I understand eventually I should be shooting for greensteel stuff, until then and as I'm leveling up it certainly appears that in particular holy/holy burst/pure good (it so happens he's Neutral Good rather than TN so I can use such weapons) seems to be highly valued/sought after.

    However, I've managed to score 2 seemingly nice greataxes that are described as Seeker Greataxe of Maiming. One of them in fact has a +7 Seeker value. Combined with the crit enhancements from the Frenzied Berserker enhancement stuff it would seem that this type of weapon would be pretty darn good in terms of crit damage, so I suppose my question would be, does your overall dps suffer that much when using such a weapon as opposed to one of the holy or other specific type weapons?

    One other question since it was just mentioned in the previous post: what exactly is the benefit of 'Flametouched Iron' gear? The ingame descriptor isn't really that specific on this.

  19. #19
    Community Member leadhead's Avatar
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    WOW! I had no idea how deep a subject this was! I have just learned a ton!

    Thanks for making weapon selection TAKE EVEN MORE TIME!!! LOL! j/k.

    Ok, quick question on the crit range... If x weapon scores on a 19 - 20 to be eligible for a possible critical hit, does this take into account attack bonuses? Like if I have a +7 and I roll a 13...nevermind, I just answered my own question there is no way it works like that, I would be criticaling way more than I have seen it.

    Now I just have sword envy! I thought I was all big and bad that I had a sword that maims people and a sword that is viscous... You guys have x3 crit flaming burst weapons of holy elemental banishment bane! Hey that is a good one, DDO should hire me to make up weapon names

    Great stuff guys, keep posting if you have anything as I plan on bookmarking this and referencing it later on cause I am going to forget!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by leadhead View Post
    Ok, quick question on the crit range... If x weapon scores on a 19 - 20 to be eligible for a possible critical hit, does this take into account attack bonuses? Like if I have a +7 and I roll a 13...nevermind, I just answered my own question there is no way it works like that, I would be criticaling way more than I have seen it.
    Confirming does. The critical threat is a straight die number roll, but to confirm, a second roll is done using your normal attack bonus at that point plus any critical-specific Feats, Enhancements and so on that may apply. You will see these two rolls in your combat log.
    Sine Qua Non.

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