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  1. #21
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post

    While that can be useful in some situation (like soloing), it'll often happen that you won't be hit all that often. A good solution might be to hotkey your Chattering Ring and switch to it whenever you need to be harder to kill, while keeping the DPS rings the rest of the time.
    .
    I actually hotkey powerattack and CE. I'm usually using one or the other. I'll run powerattack until I find myself taking too much damage and then swap stances. As such I'm already making a 5 AC swing. 9 times out of 10 when I hotkey out of water stance to fire stance for extra damage, I end up taking extra damage. As such I'm generally in water stance (with a few exceptions) and swapping between CE and PA.

    Next, do you believe it is fair to ask monks to make up for the lack of GS handwraps by forcing them to use rings with damage enhancements?

    Do you believe monks are balanced in the game?

    Do you believe monks would be overpowered if they had GS handwraps?
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Next, do you believe it is fair to ask monks to make up for the lack of GS handwraps by forcing them to use rings with damage enhancements?
    I do. Other classes need to fill their ring slots, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Do you believe monks are balanced in the game?
    I think DPS monks are not in an horribly bad spot like they used to. I think their DPS is now high enough to at least compare to other classes.

    Tanking monks suffer from grave imbalance, for the same reason S&B paladins are in a tough spot.
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Do you believe monks would be overpowered if they had GS handwraps?
    Maybe. I have not ran the number for Mineral II handwraps so the answer might be yes.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    9 times out of 10 when I hotkey out of water stance to fire stance for extra damage, I end up taking extra damage. As such I'm generally in water stance
    Uh... Wind Stance? More damage than Water with the same AC?

  4. #24
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Uh... Wind Stance? More damage than Water with the same AC?
    Does wind stance boost wisdom as well? Wisdom bonus to AC and stunning fist DC is why I use that one.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  5. #25
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I do. Other classes need to fill their ring slots, too.
    .
    Yes every class has other things to put in their ring slot. So on that point it is fair.

    What I am saying is not fair is that only monks cannot get their main weapon on GS and MUST use DPS mods on rings to make up for not having GS handwraps. No other class is in that situation.

    Still think that is fair?
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Does wind stance boost wisdom as well? Wisdom bonus to AC and stunning fist DC is why I use that one.
    Grand Master Ocean: +4 Wisdom, Bonus to Saves and Tumbling AC

    Grand Master Wind: +4 Dex, +10% Insight Attack Speed and 10% Enhancement Bonus to Attack Speed


    So yeah, If you want damage you're better off in Wind, At most you AC will fluctuate by 1 point if you've got an odd in one and not the other.
    [REDACTED]

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    What I am saying is not fair is that only monks cannot get their main weapon on GS and MUST use DPS mods on rings to make up for not having GS handwraps. No other class is in that situation.

    Still think that is fair?
    I still think that's fair. Different class is different. My definition of unfair entails that one of two parties has an undeserved penalty or advantage. I don't see that here. No one is extremely penalized in this nor does anyone seem extremely advantaged. You have indeed highlighted a difference between the classes, but that's normal: different classes are bound to have differences.
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  8. #28
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    Grand Master Ocean: +4 Wisdom, Bonus to Saves and Tumbling AC

    Grand Master Wind: +4 Dex, +10% Insight Attack Speed and 10% Enhancement Bonus to Attack Speed


    So yeah, If you want damage you're better off in Wind, At most you AC will fluctuate by 1 point if you've got an odd in one and not the other.
    Continuing on the sidebar a bit, which stat does the wind stance decrease?
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  9. #29
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I still think that's fair. Different class is different. My definition of unfair entails that one of two parties has an undeserved penalty or advantage. I don't see that here. No one is extremely penalized in this nor does anyone seem extremely advantaged. You have indeed highlighted a difference between the classes, but that's normal: different classes are bound to have differences.
    Wow.

    The game expects you to have GS. Not having GS puts you at a disadvantage. Not being able to make GS in your primary weapon is a disadvantage.

    Any melee or ranged character or class can make a GS weapon and go up in DPS. EXCEPT the monk. The monk goes down in DPS when making greensteel because the best weapon for that class is not available.

    1. Pierce: best weapon is a rapier, its there. And several others.
    2. Slash: Scimitar and longsword are both there. So are kukris.
    3. Bludgeon is hardly a high dps spec, but the options for it exist.
    4. Ranged has bows, repeaters and throwing weapons.
    5. THF have falcions, greatswords, mauls, great axes.

    Monks? Monks get kamas. And a massive drop in DPS. Going from (at just level 18) from 2d8 to 1d6 is a significant drop in dps. Every other class goes UP, monks go DOWN.

    My khopesh weilding TWFer can put on a ring with exceptional stats and still outdamage a monk with handwraps and a damage ring. The kicker is that the monk not only fails to keep pace with DPS, but also fails to get the other useful things on the rings. In my opinion, the ring system (as a means to bump up monk DPS) is a failure. (Make my ring holy burst of 15-20 crit range and maybe I'll change my mind.)

    When my bard crits for 3x what my monk crits for there is an imbalance. And if I counted the monk when using kamas, its more like 4x.

    Technically, its not a penalty. Those are assessed by referees. But it IS a big disadvange and it SHOULD be fixed.

    I'm not saying that this is the only thing needing to be fixed. I'm not even saying it should be priority #1. But it should be on the list and in the vicinity of the top.

    As a side note, I find it interesting that you're the only person since the rep system came out to hit me with negative rep. Even more interesting is that I got positive rep for the same post you neg'd me for. (Both in this thread and the last one you did it to me in.)

    Good thing about monks is the really high will saves, so I'm not likely to back down just because the great and powerful oz... er Borro0 disagrees with me. (Don't look behind the curtain, we might just discover he's only human afterall.) (Even if he claims the primeminister's address as his own!)
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  10. #30
    Community Member Redicular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Continuing on the sidebar a bit, which stat does the wind stance decrease?
    con(-2), also trekna's numbers for windstance are off, its +10% insight, +15% enhancement. monks in GM wind only get the ac/movement speed from the haste spell, they already have the att speed. Since monks already run faster than all non-barbarian classes, it can be thought of that an 18 monk has haste+1 at will.

    my only comment on the actual main thread topic, is why are metalline handwraps a higher min level than metalline anything else? clean +1 metalline handwraps are ml 10, on other weapons that'd be 6.

    This is making them unnaturally rare, since base level is 10, most of what you find(+x metalline of level increase) would be 12-16+, that means to find them in chests(i.e. for non-monks, those most likely to sell them) you're looking a level 14+ quests to pull.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Wow.

    The game expects you to have GS. Not having GS puts you at a disadvantage. Not being able to make GS in your primary weapon is a disadvantage.

    Any melee or ranged character or class can make a GS weapon and go up in DPS. EXCEPT the monk. The monk goes down in DPS when making greensteel because the best weapon for that class is not available.

    1. Pierce: best weapon is a rapier, its there. And several others.
    2. Slash: Scimitar and longsword are both there. So are kukris.
    3. Bludgeon is hardly a high dps spec, but the options for it exist.
    4. Ranged has bows, repeaters and throwing weapons.
    5. THF have falcions, greatswords, mauls, great axes.

    Monks? Monks get kamas. And a massive drop in DPS. Going from (at just level 18) from 2d8 to 1d6 is a significant drop in dps. Every other class goes UP, monks go DOWN.

    My khopesh weilding TWFer can put on a ring with exceptional stats and still outdamage a monk with handwraps and a damage ring. The kicker is that the monk not only fails to keep pace with DPS, but also fails to get the other useful things on the rings. In my opinion, the ring system (as a means to bump up monk DPS) is a failure. (Make my ring holy burst of 15-20 crit range and maybe I'll change my mind.)

    When my bard crits for 3x what my monk crits for there is an imbalance. And if I counted the monk when using kamas, its more like 4x.

    Technically, its not a penalty. Those are assessed by referees. But it IS a big disadvange and it SHOULD be fixed.

    I'm not saying that this is the only thing needing to be fixed. I'm not even saying it should be priority #1. But it should be on the list and in the vicinity of the top.

    As a side note, I find it interesting that you're the only person since the rep system came out to hit me with negative rep. Even more interesting is that I got positive rep for the same post you neg'd me for. (Both in this thread and the last one you did it to me in.)

    Good thing about monks is the really high will saves, so I'm not likely to back down just because the great and powerful oz... er Borro0 disagrees with me. (Don't look behind the curtain, we might just discover he's only human afterall.) (Even if he claims the primeminister's address as his own!)
    Im sure that everyone, A_D included, are well aware of monk weaponry and how it plays its part in the game of dps, lol turst me.

    as for rep? I think you can disable it, so ya dont have to worry about he said/she said forums drama if thats what your worried about.

    but back to the op, I think they would have a probelm with gs handwarps, since its makes your monk to what enchancements are on the wraps, and last time I checked, gs does evil damage...so... it would make your monk evil A big no no.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    The game expects you to have GS. Not having GS puts you at a disadvantage. Not being able to make GS in your primary weapon is a disadvantage.
    That's a correct statement if you're talking about a non-monk.

    For monks, the game expects you to wear at least one ToD ring and an appropriate pair of handwraps, which may or may not be Metalline depending on the mob you're facing. Like I said, different classes are different. It's not a problem if some classes have to wear different gear to contribute equally, for as long as the grind is comparable for both.
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    When my bard crits for 3x what my monk crits for there is an imbalance.
    I do not see why that would be.
    Last edited by Borror0; 11-20-2009 at 09:44 PM.
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  13. #33
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    That's a correct statement if you're talking about a non-monk.

    For monks, the game expects you to wear at least one ToD ring and an appropriate pair of handwraps, which may or may not be Metalline depending on the mob you're facing. Like I said, different classes are different. It's not a problem if some classes have to wear different gear to contribute equally, for as long as the grind is comparable for both.

    I do not see why that would be.
    What I don't get is why you see the game as "monks" and "everything else". Why are monks treated differently? Why are monks expected to wear one ToD ring when noone else is?

    The grind is not comparable. Every other class uses GS to get through Amrath. They already have that weapon. Now the monks are expected to go get a ToD ring and to do so without the advantages of GS wraps. Why?

    I get that you feel it is this way. I even think you are right. It is that way. What I don't get is: why? (Lets please avoid the technical difficulties the devs may or may not be having with the wraps.) Why are monks treated differently? Is there an answer to this other than the technical difficulties?

    Let me point out that I don't play PnP, so don't assume I have a ton of background knowledge that would explain why monks are different is which ever world of D&D.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Why are monks treated differently?
    Why should they not be?

    Like I said multiple times, different classes are different. Unless you prove to me that there is a problem with there being a difference in this situation, there is no problem. Otherwise, it just means that it's different. Different is not necessarily bad. It might just be different.
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Every other class uses GS to get through Amrath.
    That is false, unless you have a sugar daddy but then that is a completely different point.
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