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  1. #1
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Default Question RE: Past Life: Wizard

    Past Life: Wizard
    You were a wizard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself desiring a good book. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to spell penetration checks and the DC's of wands you use. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

    Strictly reading the structure of this it sounds like the bonus +2 spell pen applies only to wands. Is this correct and/or intended?

    The reason I ask is because when I read it first, I thought, wow... I'll TR my sorc once through wiz and gain a couple spell pen points then go back up in sorc. But if it only applies to wands, I won't bother.

    Thanks!
    /sigh

  2. #2
    Community Member Bloodhaven's Avatar
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    I would like clarification on this as well.
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    Community Member gserlenga's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    The DC's of Wands? Are you joking?
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  4. #4
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Past Life: Wizard
    You were a wizard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself desiring a good book. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to spell penetration checks and the DC's of wands you use. This feat can be stacked up to three times.
    Ok so now I need clarification? What is not very clear crystal clear even that the added spell penetrations and DC's only apply to wands?

    Some people need to be slapped in face 3 times and once on the bottom (maybe more if she is cute) to have something dawn on them. Folks what needs to be clarified, its as clear as the skin on a baby's rump.
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    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    Ok so now I need clarification? What is not very clear crystal clear even that the added spell penetrations and DC's only apply to wands?

    Some people need to be slapped in face 3 times and once on the bottom (maybe more if she is cute) to have something dawn on them. Folks what needs to be clarified, its as clear as the skin on a baby's rump.
    I think we were all hoping that the Wizards past life feat would give us a stacking +2 Haggle score when selling wands with a "SR check" or "DC save" back to the bartender.

    That'd be sweet!!!
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    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Strictly reading the structure of this it sounds like the bonus +2 spell pen applies only to wands. Is this correct and/or intended?
    +2 to Spell Penetration Checks.
    +2 to the DC's of Wands you use.

    The Spell Penetration bonus affects all spells that are actually cast by the wizard.

  7. #7
    Community Member Crazyfruit's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying. Past life wiz just went from **** to awesome IMO
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    +2 to Spell Penetration Checks.
    +2 to the DC's of Wands you use.

    The Spell Penetration bonus affects all spells that are actually cast by the wizard.
    I hope past life feats don't stack anymore because, otherwise, +6 Spell Penetration is grossly overpowered.

    By the way, Eladrin, what is the design goal(s) of past life feats?
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  9. #9
    Community Member kaelis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I hope past life feats don't stack anymore because, otherwise, +6 Spell Penetration is grossly overpowered.

    By the way, Eladrin, what is the design goal(s) of past life feats?
    wonder if someones going to TR wizz x3 and favoured soul to see if the spell pen gained is enough to bypass portals again.. +9 'free' sr seems only a little unbalancing if suddenly mobs have sr based around this...
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  10. #10
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    Ok so now I need clarification? What is not very clear crystal clear even that the added spell penetrations and DC's only apply to wands?

    Some people need to be slapped in face 3 times and once on the bottom (maybe more if she is cute) to have something dawn on them. Folks what needs to be clarified, its as clear as the skin on a baby's rump.
    See Eladrin's response and then drop the attitude.

    If the sentence had read:

    ... +2 to spell penetration and +2 to the DCs of wands...

    That would be crystal clear and match with the dev response to my question. The sentence structure implied what I said in the OP. That past life feat would have been very underwhelming. As such, I asked to see if the text was misleading. Turns out it was.

    Thanks!
    /sigh

  11. #11
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    +2 to Spell Penetration Checks.
    +2 to the DC's of Wands you use.

    The Spell Penetration bonus affects all spells that are actually cast by the wizard.
    Thank you for the response.
    /sigh

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelis View Post
    +9 'free' sr seems only a little unbalancing if suddenly mobs have sr based around this...
    +9 Spell Penetration is problematic either way: either the mobs SR can be overcome far more easily than intended or the mobs' SR is increased to match the new Spell Penetration numbers that some players can reach after having TR'd six times.

    Both are undesirable outcome, unless the developers intend to segregate players based on the number of TR they made (which would be an odd design goal).
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  13. #13
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Would anyone actually do 3 TRs just for spell pen and 3 more as FvS to get to 9 spell pen?

    Then, what is this bypassing portals you are refering to?

    Finally, I agree, that the game should not be balanced around what is possible to get using TRs. If you start down that road you end up with quests balanced around characters with 33 TRs... not good!
    /sigh

  14. #14
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I hope past life feats don't stack anymore because, otherwise, +6 Spell Penetration is grossly overpowered.
    Eh, I like this. If someone wants to level their character to 20 5 times (figuring for the added XP required to level each time, but I may be too conservative even) in the same class, I'd say that they deserve some real and tangible benefit. Truthfully, I expect this to be a very minor issue, as I'd guess that most players doing this would use the granted spell pen to free up a feat or two, I know that I will.

    As it is, there aren't that many spell pen. checks that a wizard with an appropriate spell pen. item can't land about 80% of the time.

    Certainly the other past life granted abilities are worth stacking, without being too powerful, or so they seem from what I'm figuring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I'd say that they deserve some real and tangible benefit.
    Why?

    There is a saying in game design that you reward what you want to encourage. It's actually pretty intuitive, and that's something that you learn in psychology 101 under the name of "reinforcement" (with the qualifier positive or negative preceding it): humans react to incentive. Thus, I ask, "Why do you want to encourage that behavior?"

    I see no good reasons to, in DDO.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    +2 to Spell Penetration Checks.
    +2 to the DC's of Wands you use.

    The Spell Penetration bonus affects all spells that are actually cast by the wizard.
    Thanks for making it clear.

  17. #17
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Why?

    There is a saying in game design that you reward what you want to encourage. It's actually pretty intuitive, and that's something that you learn in psychology 101 under the name of "reinforcement" (with the qualifier positive or negative preceding it): humans react to incentive. Thus, I ask, "Why do you want to encourage that behavior?"

    I see no good reasons to, in DDO.
    Well, they went through the trouble of coding True Reincarnation, for one.

    For another, actually having players TR (and even TR more than once) increases the life span of DDO with very little effort (part of the reason they've been adding new low level stuff perhaps?), and simply doing it for +2 build points and the chance at a (mostly) pointless purchasable feat isn't really enough.

    Encouraging people to TR is good for the game on the whole (whether from our perspectives or not, certainly from that of the devs), so including incentives makes sense. You don't think so? Or disagree with the impetus for TR's mechanics in the first place?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Well, they went through the trouble of coding True Reincarnation, for one.
    I went through the trouble of coding this bug that wrecks the user's operating system and you paid me for it. Thus, you must put it in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    For another, actually having players TR (and even TR more than once) increases the life span of DDO with very little effort
    By that line of reasoning, there would be no such thing as "too grindy" nor is it possible for there to be gating in any MMO.

    Because, really, this is what your position entail.

    We're talking about one of the most insane grind I have ever heard of. Even if it takes 3 merely weeks per reincarnation (which is fairly conservative), it'll still take over four months to get six past life feats. It is only after those four months that the player will be able to complete the other existing grind like favor and tomes. Oh, ya, that's per character and, if the player decides that he needs other past life feats, he'll have to restart those grinds.

    Additionally, you can't do anything but TR on that character. Sorry.

    Then, those bonuses do add up and do result in a gating. What is an obstacle for a normal character is a joke to a character with +9 Spell Pen. The two players just can't play in the same content: while one will have a lot of problems, the other will find it's a cake walk which means that the TR'd character will need new, more challenging, content. That content will be gated by a certain number of reincarnations. If the DDO developers talked with their LOTRO neighbors, they should have a clue of how unpopular gating is.

    To put it bluntly, I don't see this as being fun, ever; and I'm not talking on a personal level here.
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  19. #19
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I went through the trouble of coding this bug that wrecks the user's operating system and you paid me for it. Thus, you must put it in the game.
    Irrelevant to our discussion.
    By that line of reasoning, there would be no such thing as "too grindy" nor is it possible for there to be gating in any MMO.

    Because, really, this is what your position entail.

    We're talking about one of the most insane grind I have ever heard of. Even if it takes 3 merely weeks per reincarnation (which is fairly conservative), it'll still take over four months to get six past life feats. It is only after those four months that the player will be able to complete the other existing grind like favor and tomes. Oh, ya, that's per character and, if the player decides that he needs other past life feats, he'll have to restart those grinds.

    Additionally, you can't do anything but TR on that character. Sorry.

    Then, those bonuses do add up and do result in a gating. What is an obstacle for a normal character is a joke to a character with +9 Spell Pen. The two players just can't play in the same content: while one will have a lot of problems, the other will find it's a cake walk which means that the TR'd character will need new, more challenging, content. That content will be gated by a certain number of reincarnations. If the DDO developers talked with their LOTRO neighbors, they should have a clue of how unpopular gating is.

    To put it bluntly, I don't see this as being fun, ever; and I'm not talking on a personal level here.
    I agree that TRing, for its own sake, is probably too much of a grind to be done more than once, or maybe twice. Maybe. However, I'm sure there are people who have 10 capped characters, who have been playing since launch, and who want to make changes to some of those characters, who want to improve them. Greater reincarnation offers one possibility, while TR offers another.

    TR's offer is essentially the same as rerolling a character that you feel there is something wrong with--we all do it, so it's clearly something that we, as a community are already disposed toward--but includes additional incentives: extra stat points, retention of bound items, and some passive benefits that are not available any other way. I'm planning on TRing at least 2 characters, and maybe 3, and may TR one character twice; I'll have to gauge how much the grind back up to cap bothers me (particularly since I've got 5 characters I'm working on currently in the level 5-10 range).

    As for gating...it will certainly make some characters far more able to deal with certain tasks, though how much of that is truly a gate in this case? In this instance, we're talking about SR checks, most of which aren't that prohibitive to begin with. Those that are tend to be on raid bosses, and then the only thing SR is blocking in that case is a few debuffs, which rarely make or break a quest.

    Also, SR +9 is assuming someone not only takes the time to level and relevel the same character SEVEN times, but that they'd do so as both a wizard and a FvS. Some of the equipment is the same, but that character is going to run out of backpack and bank space kind of fast.

    But moving back to gating, the difference between a well-built, well-equipped character and a mediocre build with bare-bones equipment is already fairly large, and we don't have that many problems. Some quests end up being too easy, while some others end up being too difficult for one group or the other, but the Normal/Hard/Elite/Epic settings help to balance this somewhat. Maybe this causes some quests to get a bit of a boost on elite, or for epic quests to become a bit more difficult, but again, SR doesn't come into play that often, and when it does, it usually is a fairly minor obstacle. I know that my wizard at level 17 was hitting the SR on some of the Amrath stuff on a 3+.

    Additionally, I doubt many characters would keep their Spell Pen feats with these bonuses, but would trade them in for other feats (Toughness, Spell Focus, Great Spell Focus, another metamagic, a combat feat...), which would diversify their abilities, maybe increase power in other areas slightly, but would also mean that a 6x TR'ed wiz/FvS would end up with +5 spell pen over a wizard with both feats. More likely still, is that such a character would also drop their enhancements...so there's only a +2 difference. Hardly game breaking. And if a character keeps everything...they will stick the Amrath stuff on a 1 (+10% success from my lvl 17), and will more reliably be able to debuff bosses.

    Sure, this may result in some problems down the road, as new content would need higher SR to be challenging, but again, that's what elite is for. And spells that don't have SR checks.

    Now, if you want to discuss the other TR abilities...which of them affects the game even half as much as this? Up to +3 to-hit is kind of a big deal, particularly in light of the epic content AC numbers, but again, it is hardly game breaking, especially when considering the current range of attack bonuses we already have in game. And none of the other stuff has even that big an impact.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Irrelevant to our discussion.
    You made the ludicrous argument that, because someone was paid to create something, it should be put in the game.

    Game development involves throwing away what is not good for the sake of the betterment of the game. If something is not fun, you don't ride with it; you either tweak it to be fun or throw the concept in the trash can and start over again. It's irrelevant how much energy you've put into it if it's not fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    TR's offer is essentially the same as rerolling a character that you feel there is something wrong with--we all do it, so it's clearly something that we, as a community are already disposed toward--but includes additional incentives: extra stat points, retention of bound items, and some passive benefits that are not available any other way.
    I don't see why there should be incentive to encourage that task.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As for gating...it will certainly make some characters far more able to deal with certain tasks, though how much of that is truly a gate in this case? In this instance, we're talking about SR checks, most of which aren't that prohibitive to begin with. Those that are tend to be on raid bosses, and then the only thing SR is blocking in that case is a few debuffs, which rarely make or break a quest.
    That's purposely obsoleting design space for the future, in a nearly irreversible way.

    The same argument can be used for other aspect of the game that involve a d20:
    • To-hit: Everyone can hit on a 2. It does not matter if we give to-hit bonuses to everyone.
    • Saves: It's pretty easy to floor your saves. We can give saves to everyone.

    If one aspect of character design does not matter for characters that should care about, that's a problem; it should matter and game designers should make it matter. Well, unless you believe that Spell Resistance is poor design or does not allow anything particularly fun in the first place but that does not seem to be your argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As for gating...it will certainly make some characters far more able to deal with certain tasks, though how much of that is truly a gate in this case? In this instance, we're talking about SR checks, most of which aren't that prohibitive to begin with. Those that are tend to be on raid bosses, and then the only thing SR is blocking in that case is a few debuffs, which rarely make or break a quest.
    You seem to not remember what your position is, so I'll refresh your memory.

    You believe that past life feats suffice as an incentive to go through the process of True Reincarnation. Otherwise, you would not believe that it has the potential of "increas[ing] the life span of DDO with very little effort" because no one would bother doing so!
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Also, SR +9 is assuming someone not only takes the time to level and relevel the same character SEVEN times
    Ever heard of Ultima Online? That game is TWELVE years old! Can you believe it? It's still around!
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    But moving back to gating, the difference between a well-built, well-equipped character and a mediocre build with bare-bones equipment is already fairly large, and we don't have that many problems.
    Correct. We have powergamers annihilating quests on Normal because they see no reasons to run on Elite. That's not a good thing, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Sure, this may result in some problems down the road, as new content would need higher SR to be challenging, but again, that's what elite is for.
    Wait, I thought you believed there would be no gating?
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Up to +3 to-hit is kind of a big deal, particularly in light of the epic content AC numbers, but again, it is hardly game breaking, especially when considering the current range of attack bonuses we already have in game.
    Grazing hits.
    Last edited by Borror0; 11-16-2009 at 02:27 PM.
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