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  1. #21
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Uh...where?
    Very end of the quest, by the door to the boss room.

    There are 2 boxes. Disable the one closest to the door while standing in a good spot.. And your reward for success? air jet right into the lava!

    lol. Usually it wont quite put you in the lava tho, it does shoot you very close so I imagine it could depending on where you stand while disabling it.

    The real box for the trap is further off to the right.

    re the rogue I run with?
    Hmm dps build. 8 int, usually doesn't carry thieves tools. no enhancemens. Suceeded on the traps heh.. DC's aren't balanced well, but still funny traps.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Very end of the quest, by the door to the boss room.

    There are 2 boxes. Disable the one closest to the door while standing in a good spot.. And your reward for success? air jet right into the lava!

    lol. Usually it wont quite put you in the lava tho, it does shoot you very close so I imagine it could depending on where you stand while disabling it.

    The real box for the trap is further off to the right.
    I like the chains traps. They're clever. The pattern is outer for the secondary, inner for the primary...like all the other dual trap box setups in the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    re the rogue I run with?
    Hmm dps build. 8 int, usually doesn't carry thieves tools. no enhancemens. Suceeded on the traps heh.. DC's aren't balanced well, but still funny traps.
    Yet he apparently didn't succeed....
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
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  3. #23

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    well certainly i dont mind much if the trap on the jail should be lowered about like 5 pts for normal difficult because is right that is too high for majorty of rogues. And that will be more than enough for any non-specialized rogue can hit it.

    about the thing
    4 - Search IV -> this is only the hard investmet so pain 10 pts? (2 lvl and half, hmm probably yes for many rogues as is just 1 quest only)
    5 - Skill Boost -> this is kinda must for any good rogue as is just have lot of uses (haggle, umd, etc...)

    Anyway from all traps on that quest...
    Trap with rats - totally skip possible/
    Trap to open the jail - totally skip with open lock skill on the jail
    Trap inside the jail not skip but really not that deadly.
    Trap in front to shrine - totally skip by pulling lever down the edge where lever is.
    Trap in 2nd jail next to last door not skip but again not that deadly.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorlinta View Post
    well certainly i dont mind much if the trap on the jail should be lowered about like 5 pts for normal difficult because is right that is too high for majorty of rogues. And that will be more than enough for any non-specialized rogue can hit it.

    about the thing
    4 - Search IV -> this is only the hard investmet so pain 10 pts? (2 lvl and half, hmm probably yes for many rogues as is just 1 quest only)
    5 - Skill Boost -> this is kinda must for any good rogue as is just have lot of uses (haggle, umd, etc...)

    Anyway from all traps on that quest...
    Trap with rats - totally skip possible/
    Trap to open the jail - totally skip with open lock skill on the jail
    Trap inside the jail not skip but really not that deadly.
    Trap in front to shrine - totally skip by pulling lever down the edge where lever is.
    Trap in 2nd jail next to last door not skip but again not that deadly.
    I've never brought my Skill Boosts up to max on any rogue I've ever played.. 3 AP's for +3 is automatic.. 7 More AP's for +2 More is not a good investment.

    No one is debating the "Need" to do these traps. We were running these quests for a week before someone found the boxes....

    The problem lies in the fact that Since they are so high, they have immediately become "Cabaled" IE: No one expects you to get em so why bother?
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  5. #25
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    IE: No one expects you to get em so why bother?
    A reward for the rogues who have the skill to handle to them.

    At least a 15% xp reward if nothing else.

  6. #26
    Community Member Kiranselie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    A reward for the rogues who have the skill modifier to handle to them.

    At least a 15% xp reward if nothing else.
    Fixed that for you.


    It takes exactly zero skill to build a character specifically to do what you think a rogue should be doing. Do you even have a rogue? Why dont you leave these discussions to people that actually know what theyre talking about.
    I've got my affairs in order for the coming zombie apocalypse, do you?

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    At least a 15% xp reward if nothing else.
    Given your assumptions, and the 10% penalty for bringing a level 20 rogue into a level 18 quest, 5%.
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
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    "As the party's resident trap expert ..." <dies with smug yet surprised expression on face>

  8. #28
    Community Member WolfSpirit's Avatar
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    I don't see a problem with this. It makes pure rogues worthwile for more than assassin. I mean, what else is a mechanic rogue to do if not this? Can't handle the traps? Give the often given excuse Warrior FvS have to give for not being main healer. And any other class that wants to specialize in something other than the expected way to go with the given class.
    Feel the burn!
    "Sorry, I'm an assassin. Can't get that there trap"
    Traps are too easy. And I've seen MANY threads about it. And MORE complaints about that fact too. Second time one comes in with an exceptionally high DC...
    "Oh no!!! Traps are what rogues do ALL of them should be able to do them!" My 1 rogue splash can get ANY trap!
    Yay.
    Gives rogues more of a reason to stay pure and perhaps look at the mechanic route...

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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfSpirit View Post
    I don't see a problem with this. It makes pure rogues worthwile for more than assassin. I mean, what else is a mechanic rogue to do if not this? Can't handle the traps? Give the often given excuse Warrior FvS have to give for not being main healer. And any other class that wants to specialize in something other than the expected way to go with the given class.
    Feel the burn!
    "Sorry, I'm an assassin. Can't get that there trap"
    Traps are too easy. And I've seen MANY threads about it. And MORE complaints about that fact too. Second time one comes in with an exceptionally high DC...
    "Oh no!!! Traps are what rogues do ALL of them should be able to do them!" My 1 rogue splash can get ANY trap!
    Yay.
    Gives rogues more of a reason to stay pure and perhaps look at the mechanic route...
    Again.. We're talking about Normal Difficulty. Give the gimpy Mechanics something to do on Hard and Elite.. I'm cool with that. GIve em another High Watermark Chest Trap like Cabal.. No Issue....

    There is no good reason for the High Watermark in the game to be established on a NORMAL difficulty quest. Let alone what it scales to on Hard and Elite....
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  10. #30
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Normal - Per my list above, no raidloot, no feats, minimal AP investment (20 points).. .
    Anyone else have a problem with the above quoted sentence?
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Again.. We're talking about Normal Difficulty. Give the gimpy Mechanics something to do on Hard and Elite.. I'm cool with that. GIve em another High Watermark Chest Trap like Cabal.. No Issue....

    There is no good reason for the High Watermark in the game to be established on a NORMAL difficulty quest. Let alone what it scales to on Hard and Elite....
    I think if Traps are to be an answer to diversity, the trap mechanics need to be reworked. I mean, a stack of fairly silly assumptions that still requires 20AP just to *find* the trap - let alone disable it - is less than genius.

    It's like requiring 20 AP for a barb to even use rage or fast movement, nevermind augmenting it.

    Just adding a die roll to search, and changing a crit fail from 'blown box' to 'trigger trap on person using box' would go a long way toward increasing diversity without lockstepping players into one build or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    Anyone else have a problem with the above quoted sentence?
    The line starts to the left, don't forget to take a number.
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
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    "As the party's resident trap expert ..." <dies with smug yet surprised expression on face>

  12. #32
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Shade...

    All the traps in here are mere annoyances... nothing wrong with them having a high DC... It's just one quest... These guys are really really good at trap-making...

    Now, I pride myself that my bard/rogue can handle any trap in the game... so I'll have to look at him again.... I can't remember his max search number off-hand. See, that's how bad it is... I have ALL the equipment for him... I even have a +3 INT skills Shroud item... And I never ever have to use it. I carry around the Ventilated Bracers, a +6 INT ring, that +3 INT skills Shroud item, and I never have to equip them...

    A challenge sounds good to me...

    Maybe the other posters here are right... maybe it should be lowered a little for Normal... but I'm okay with it staying like it is... Trap DCs are a joke throughout most of the game... Nothing wrong in my book to add ONE quest where they are super high...
    Last edited by Thrudh; 11-03-2009 at 02:32 PM.

  13. #33
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Scenarios:

    High Trap DC's; on optional stuff The reality of this scenario, is that no one will really expect rogues to be able to get them, since so few will be able to. This makes having them this high kind of pointless, because who is going to design a rogue for 5% of the game?

    High Trap DC's; mandatory for quest completion; handful of quests The reality of this situation is even uglier. There will be more rogues that build for this scenario, but they will be completely gimp in typical combat and bring back the stereotypes that we have spent three years trying to work around. Rogue discrimination will increase in quests without high DC's - because who wants to bring one of these gimp rogues into content if they are not needed?

    High Trap DC's; mandatory for quest completion; everywhere Ever sit around waiting for a cleric? This will be worse. Because seriously, who really thinks playing a trapmonkey is fun? I have played nearly every possible combination in this game - and a trapmonkey is by far the least fun I have ever had on a build.

    Lower DC's and/or PITA but not mandatory traps Makes traps a valuable addition to a well built rogue and, if one isn't available, provides other options. This allows rogues to not be as specialized - and therefore more welcome in ALL content due to not being as pigeon-holed. Win-win for fun in grouping.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Because seriously, who really thinks playing a trapmonkey is fun? I have played nearly every possible combination in this game - and a trapmonkey is by far the least fun I have ever had on a build.
    I would not have any fun playing a character who can ONLY do traps (aka trapmonkey), but I seriously enjoy being able to spot and disable traps...

    My bard/rogue was one of my first characters, and I played him often in a static group with 2 RL friends. We ran through a lot of quests for the first time together... It was a point of pride for me to warn the group and get the traps.. I enjoy that facet of the game very much.

  15. #35
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    23 ranks
    15 item
    6 INT (22 INT score)
    4 GH
    1 Luck
    2 Search enhancements (3 APs)
    3 Skill Boost enhancement (3 APs)

    = 54

    That is painfully easy for any rogue to get.

    If they are drow or elf or dwarf, they get another +2, and can spend 3 more APs in racial enhancements for another +2

    = 58

    One problem with search DCs is that there is not much room between super-easy and dreadfully hard...

    To get from 54 or 58 to 62 takes raid loot or very expensive enhancements (3 APs for the first +2, 7 APs for the last +2? That probably needs to be looked at).

    I'd be okay with lowering the search DCs on normal to 60.... I think it's fair to assume SOME raid loot... This IS an end-game quest...

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    23 ranks
    15 item
    6 INT (22 INT score)
    4 GH
    1 Luck
    2 Search enhancements (3 APs)
    3 Skill Boost enhancement (3 APs)

    = 54

    That is painfully easy for any rogue to get.

    If they are drow or elf or dwarf, they get another +2, and can spend 3 more APs in racial enhancements for another +2

    = 58

    One problem with search DCs is that there is not much room between super-easy and dreadfully hard...

    To get from 54 or 58 to 62 takes raid loot or very expensive enhancements (3 APs for the first +2, 7 APs for the last +2? That probably needs to be looked at).

    I'd be okay with lowering the search DCs on normal to 60.... I think it's fair to assume SOME raid loot... This IS an end-game quest...
    Again.. Assuming 23 Ranks for a L18 Quest....

    I wouldnt mind "assuming some raid loot" if there was actually "Some" raid loot out there for Search DC's. Head of Good Fortune is It. No Rogue in their right mind would make a SPell Point Item as their first shroud item..... I'm considering one for my rogue but its going to be his 7th Piece of Greensteel.

    Oh, and The Head Doesnt stack with other Luck Bonus's so it would be just +1 over your included Luck Bonus.

    Dwarves also cannot take Dwarven Search Enhancements without the Dragonmark Feat.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Again.. Assuming 23 Ranks for a L18 Quest....

    I wouldnt mind "assuming some raid loot" if there was actually "Some" raid loot out there for Search DC's. Head of Good Fortune is It. No Rogue in their right mind would make a SPell Point Item as their first shroud item..... I'm considering one for my rogue but its going to be his 7th Piece of Greensteel.

    Oh, and The Head Doesnt stack with other Luck Bonus's so it would be just +1 over your included Luck Bonus.

    Dwarves also cannot take Dwarven Search Enhancements without the Dragonmark Feat.
    Good points... Do you agree with me that it's interesting how small the gap is between super-easy (any 20th level rogue can get 54 search) and super-hard (62 takes some serious work)

    No Rogue in their right mind would make a SPell Point Item as their first shroud item..... I'm considering one for my rogue but its going to be his 7th Piece of Greensteel.
    Not first item, sure... but sooner than 7th if you care about traps. Tier II (+3 INT skills bonus) isn't too hard to get...

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Good points... Do you agree with me that it's interesting how small the gap is between super-easy (any 20th level rogue can get 54 search) and super-hard (62 takes some serious work)
    A side effect of not getting a Roll on search checks. Sucks...



    Not first item, sure... but sooner than 7th if you care about traps. Tier II (+3 INT skills bonus) isn't too hard to get...
    Depends on how hard you Grind the shroud. For a Person with one or 2 characters, gathering the ingrediants necessary for even a second item can be tedious and time consuming. Not to mention most rogues are going to want an item and at least one weapon before the start adding fluff to their builds. ANd lets face it.. a +3 Int Skill Items was in the Fluff Category until this update.
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  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Good points... Do you agree with me that it's interesting how small the gap is between super-easy (any 20th level rogue can get 54 search) and super-hard (62 takes some serious work)
    I wouldn't use the word 'interesting', but yeah. When the DCs are easy to get with reasonable gear, stat, and AP investments, then it's not an issue. When people start calling for the high level DCs...then the trap mechanics become a real issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Not first item, sure... but sooner than 7th if you care about traps. Tier II (+3 INT skills bonus) isn't too hard to get...
    ...and in this case, still won't take you from 58 to 62. One short is one short.
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
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    "As the party's resident trap expert ..." <dies with smug yet surprised expression on face>

  20. #40
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    ...and in this case, still won't take you from 58 to 62. One short is one short.
    Head of Good Fortune gets you the last +1

    So I guess my drow bard/rogue will JUST make the cut-off... I may even spend a few larges and get his INT skills item up to +6

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