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  1. #41
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahual View Post
    Really just run the quest at your appropiate lvl. Put an lfm up with the correct lvls.

    Dont join lfms with 20s in the party. Its very easy. If you have done the raid before its pretty easy to figure out what is going on. You should be able to lead it. You won't be the only one with this problem.

    If you can't complete the raid. Do it with lvl 20's ust dont complete and get ingredients and craft in one of the runs. tier II you can craft in amrath. THen try again to complete in lvl range.

    There are ways around that problem. You see VON raids of the appropiate lvl often.

    I really don't see this as a problem here is why:

    1) You can still run it at appropriate lvl
    2) You can run other things to get xp
    3) You choose to get into those groups with lvl 20s
    4) You ran the quest before you should have a good idea to how complete it in your range.
    5) There are other quests you can do to get raid loot

    People a couple of months ago used to do shroud everyday because there was not much to do than craft as much as you wanted to.
    Hi Nahual

    No one said there wasn't ways around it, but working around something doesn't really solve the problem.
    Other raids really are not the same to compare too as Shroud is really the crafting be all and end all raid. It also sits at that borderline of end game, and has gear still desirable for level 20's.

    And yes you can say run it level appropriate and if you are willing to wait long enough you could fill it. And it takes nothing to lead a shroud now days with most familiar with it, but most want to run it on their higher toons and this causes problems for those more level appropriate even though there may only be a few on at that time wanting to run it. I believe the penalty already imposed by the 20's being above level is fine and there is really no need for others like the within 4 levels. Anyway as I said before the idea is moot unless the devs say otherwise anyway. I was just lending my support to the OP when I got sucked into this :-p as it really matters little to me.
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  2. #42
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlith View Post
    I was not talking only about level 20 quests. I also mentioned lower level quests. Are you saying that it is now impossible for a level 1 character to piggyback with some levels 4/5's running WW elite (or garrisons/butchers path/new ring leader)? Or level 4 characters to run SC (or gwylans) elite with some 7/8 toons. or level 5/6 running with 7/8/9's through delaras/necro? It may be that this has changed across the whole level range of quests and I am not aware of it. I have not been concentrating on low level quests lately, and usually don't run in parties that have such level differences anyway.

    I may have gotten some of those level ranges wrong. It is early and I have not yet had coffee.
    Hi Alrith

    Yeah that is what I am saying. I only discovered it when I was setting up a skellie run in the sub, I had for level 12 and up for it cause it really didnt matter and found that they can't get in anymore and this was accross the board now. I can't remember whether it is within 3 or 4 of level quest now but if you are not of appropriate level you just cant get in.
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  3. #43
    Founder Arlith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Hi Alrith

    Yeah that is what I am saying. I only discovered it when I was setting up a skellie run in the sub, I had for level 12 and up for it cause it really didnt matter and found that they can't get in anymore and this was accross the board now. I can't remember whether it is within 3 or 4 of level quest now but if you are not of appropriate level you just cant get in.
    Have to go to work now. Will check this out and get back to you. Opinion on hold until then.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    If you want xp, form a group and make it lvl appropriate. Otherwise yeah, you raid for loot.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    No one said there wasn't ways around it, but working around something doesn't really solve the problem.
    How is running the quest at the intended level a "workaround"? Unless you mean to emphasize the "work" part...
    Sine Qua Non.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmnax View Post
    Umm... I should take a 8 sorc and run all my friends lv 1s and 2s through deleras.... its a breeze, doing the whole chain in ~40 minutes.

    Thats what powerleveling is about. Note that the 8 sorc is right on the level for the quest, but the 1s arent. The 1s arent getting any xp penalty because there is no one that is above the quest level, yet they will gain a crapload of xp withouth doing anything at all.

    And that is the reason the powerleveling xp penalty exist. So that its harder to exploit a quest to xp overly quick.
    First off I said Raids, A quest that you can only do once every 3 days, and Im talking about Lvl 13's getting Xp for a raid that they qualify for. This is Endgame Content that you Have to work hard to get to and Compete in, There is no reason that you shouldnt get atleast some of the 20K Xp, But no you only get a Chance @ loot. You cant Exploit a Quest you can only get into every 3 days, Not for Xp anyway. Most people would be @ Lvl 16 By the time their Timer went up, Im nowhere near a power gamer, I raid Once or twice a week if that.

    Has anyone tied to Host a Shroud Between the Lvl 13-16 Range since the Mod dropped? Well I have and I can tell you that I havent gotten said group togather yet. People dont remember being Lvl 13 and doing shroud, they think its to hard and cant be done or something.
    Last edited by Tarrant; 11-02-2009 at 10:32 AM.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Lorien_the_First_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    Your a Moron, First off I said Raids,
    So its ok to freeload in a raid but not a 6 man quest? That makes no sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    Has anyone tied to Host a Shroud Between the Lvl 13-16 Range since the Mod dropped? Well I have and I can tell you that I havent gotten said group togather yet. People dont remember being Lvl 13 and doing shroud, they think its to hard and cant be done or something.
    Well most people realize that with the current XP curve and XP availabilty its wiser not to go into the shroud that earlier, you want to grab lower level XP at that point and keep the shroud/vale XP fresh for later. But putting aside you poor XP planning...

    A quest not filling might be something to do with you. People generally do look at the leader to decide if its a good raid to join or not. I have seen L13s in shroud groups and I have seen L14-17 shrouds posted (and I joined one that filled in minutes with mostly L16/17s). 15-19s aren't uncommon either.

  8. #48
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    ummm I see shroud runs posted for levels well under 20 all the time on Sarlona and they seem to be filling up and heading out.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    of getting 0xp because everyone is lvl 20, we should be able to plan on raiding to help leveling also.
    You are inverting the priority of problems.

    The real problem is that raiding is an activity for level-capped characters, and when the level cap advances past what it was when a raid was released then capped characters will still play it but not experience the amount of challenge that was intended.

    Because of their timer lockout and low loot drops, raiding is an inherently high-level activity. A mid-level character cannot possibly run a raid more than a few times before levelling up (unless he barely logs in except when the raid timer is done). Most of the playtime in a raid will be from capped characters, so it should be to serve their needs that raids are designed.

  10. #50
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    Since the Lvl 13-16 would be contributing so little that them even being there makes it so much more hard for the Raid to be sucessful and is a complete burdun on everyone else in the raid that you might as well slap them in the face because they found YOUR Scale, ( Overexagerating(Spelling?) Being a Moron) Maybe Turbine could think about give a small amount of XP/Kill said players gets then? (Just In Raids)

    Most of you guys are looking at this from your point of veiw only, Most of you have 8 Lvl 20's and the rest Lvl 16's.
    Some people like myself can only play @ Midnight because of Work and My son. Even then I cant play long because I have to be up @ 6 A.M, To be honest I would like nothing more than to get my Toon capped, There is plenty of time to run things for Loot, To level also yes. . .

    Nevermind I give up, My words are just going to get mangled again and put into context of a completely different situation again.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    Since the Lvl 13-16 would be contributing so little that them even being there makes it so much more hard for the Raid to be sucessful and is a complete burdun on everyone else in the raid that you might as well slap them in the face because they found YOUR Scale, ( Overexagerating(Spelling?) Being a Moron) Maybe Turbine could think about give a small amount of XP/Kill said players gets then? (Just In Raids)

    Most of you guys are looking at this from your point of veiw only, Most of you have 8 Lvl 20's and the rest Lvl 16's.
    Some people like myself can only play @ Midnight because of Work and My son. Even then I cant play long because I have to be up @ 6 A.M, To be honest I would like nothing more than to get my Toon capped, There is plenty of time to run things for Loot, To level also yes. . .

    Nevermind I give up, My words are just going to get mangled again and put into context of a completely different situation again.
    Why are you so concerned about the exp in raids anyway? Raids are done generally for loot, not for exp. The exp/time ratio for raiding is abysmal, overall, unless you're doing really quick raids (like Reaver). If you're trying to get your character to max level, do normal quests. If you're spending your time trying to raid, and getting frustrated at getting no exp, then try something else for exp?

    I don't think the people who disagree with you are "only looking from their point of view". They're simply pointing out that if you have low(ish) level people in a raid -- let's say 7 are 20th, 4 are 17-19th, and 1 is 13th -- that lowest-level person is not contributing nearly as much as everyone else, generally speaking. In many cases, they're being "powerleveled" through the raid, and hence don't get much exp for it.

    By the same token, let's use another example: VoN.

    If you get exp no matter what, what's to stop people from running a bunch of 20th levels through there and just mopping the place up, with a couple 8th level guildies/friends along for the ride, who are getting a bunch of exp for nothing? They can just stand in the back making jokes, watching tv, etc, while the 20th levels plow through everything.

    While you CAN get into the Shroud raid at 13th, you're looking at being the minimum level to do so. You should expect that you won't get much of a reward, if there are higher-level folks doing the majority of the work.

    My suggestion is to not worry about raiding for a while, and just work on leveling up your character.

  12. #52
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Seems some people have time issues and want to receive everything in the smallest amount of time. I want a quick easy shroud due to capped and geared players letting me pile on with them, but I want the xp also? I won't enter vale anymore till level 15. Anything before that isn't worth it. Quests take longer with a lower level group. Better to do wiz king and gh farming getting flagged for those raids and save the Vale for later. No one wants to do a 13-16 shroud run, you don't get bonus xp for being lower level anymore, and the time it will take to suceed with a higher chance of failing isn't worth it. 15-18 is a good shroud group if you want xp. At that point most people will have a few shroud items equipped and it will go a lot smoother and quicker, with no xp loss.

    This is similiar to Dragon or Titan, both great xp at level, but the time it takes to try to fill a 8-11 group isn't good for a xp/time ratio. I normally flag for them early, but I barely ever catch one before I outlevel it. And I would never catch two before I had moved on already.

  13. #53
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    A good fix for the OP's problem would be if DDO characters had an easy way to temporarily reduce their own level, so that a bunch of 20s could turn into 16s or 17s just for one Shroud.

    Of course that would be really hard for the devs to program, but it would work well.

  14. #54
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    Really dont know why people keep mentioning Von . . Half of the toons on ddo probly have it flagged but never ran it, There is no point in running it over and over, For what? +1 Tomes? Im talking about the Shroud and that Toons that are the rite Lvl to enter and Complete it should get some Xp, Not None. Its simple as that. If you dont agree dont post here, But this is the way I think It should be and noone can change my mind. You guys keep saying I want an easy button and i want to stand there and not do **** in the Shroud and thats just dumb, how would that even be fun for me? I want to smack big red dragons around also. There needs to be some kind of change to the way Xp works (In my eyes) so that toons that are the rite Lvl still benefit, And i Mean only In High Lvl Raids that Mid Lvl toons can do.

    Or how about this, You people can stop thinking that only Lvl 17+'s can do good in the shroud, And start hosting groups 13-16 again and actually get people to join in a timely manner, That would solve My concern rite there.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    Your a Moron, First off I said Raids, A quest that you can only do once every 3 days, and Im talking about Lvl 13's getting Xp for a raid that they qualify for. This is Endgame Content that you Have to work hard to get to and Compete in, There is no reason that you shouldnt get atleast some of the 20K Xp, But no you only get a Chance @ loot. You cant Exploit a Quest you can only get into every 3 days, Not for Xp anyway. Most people would be @ Lvl 16 By the time their Timer went up, Im nowhere near a power gamer, I raid Once or twice a week if that.

    Has anyone tied to Host a Shroud Between the Lvl 13-16 Range since the Mod dropped? Well I have and I can tell you that I havent gotten said group togather yet. People dont remember being Lvl 13 and doing shroud, they think its to hard and cant be done or something.
    If you qualify for the Raid you will get XP if you meet all other requirements.

    And if you are only Raiding once or twice a week, your time is better spent getting XP on the other 5-6 days of the week then worrying about XP from Raids of all places.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  16. #56
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    If you dont agree dont post here, But this is the way I think It should be and noone can change my mind.
    And in that one sentence, you have completely invalidated anything you had to say on the matter, and on the general use of these forums. Maybe you should read what forum you are posting in.

  17. #57
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonce View Post
    Really dont know why people keep mentioning Von . . Half of the toons on ddo probly have it flagged but never ran it, There is no point in running it over and over, For what? +1 Tomes?
    People mention it because it's a raid. You've stated that exp should be granted to everyone for any raid, not just shroud. Okay, how about another example: Tempest Spine. A group of 3-4 20th levels could blaze through that raid in maybe 20m or so, and take a bunch of 8-10th levels along for the ride. And those lower-level folks would get full exp, under your proposal.

    Im talking about the Shroud and that Toons that are the rite Lvl to enter and Complete it should get some Xp, Not None. Its simple as that. If you dont agree dont post here, But this is the way I think It should be and noone can change my mind.
    Then why bother posting, if you're not willing to listen to other people? You're making a post on the "suggestions" forum, not the "I want to rant and only post here if you agree with my rant" forum.

    You guys keep saying I want an easy button and i want to stand there and not do **** in the Shroud and thats just dumb, how would that even be fun for me? I want to smack big red dragons around also. There needs to be some kind of change to the way Xp works (In my eyes) so that toons that are the rite Lvl still benefit, And i Mean only In High Lvl Raids that Mid Lvl toons can do.
    Actually, people aren't arguing that "you just want an easy button". People are pointing out that if there are a number of 18-20th level people in the raid, a 13th level isn't going to contribute very much by way of comparison. The fact that you find this somehow "unfair" to you is just greed and self-centeredness. Start your own raid group if you don't want higher-level people along.

    Or how about this, You people can stop thinking that only Lvl 17+'s can do good in the shroud, And start hosting groups 13-16 again and actually get people to join in a timely manner, That would solve My concern rite there.
    Or how about this, you can stop thinking that you deserve full exp for a raid in which the 17+ people are doing the majority of the work in? And why should it be up to OTHER people to start 13-16th level groups, when you're the one complaining? Or do you just want to leave all the work to other people?

    Level up, or start your own raid. Stop demanding that they change the way the game works to suit your own selfishness.

  18. #58
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Or how about this, you can stop thinking that you deserve full exp for a raid in which the 17+ people are doing the majority of the work in? And why should it be up to OTHER people to start 13-16th level groups, when you're the one complaining? Or do you just want to leave all the work to other people?

    Level up, or start your own raid. Stop demanding that they change the way the game works to suit your own selfishness.
    1. Nobody gets full xp with 20th levels in the group of a Shroud, the entire group gets an xp hit for the easy button.
    2. Take a look at the raid itself before you go and say someone did not contribute anywhere near enough.
    Part 1 DPS on portals, gee that level 20 is so far in front of the level 15 on that it justfies no xp. Part 2 yeah that level 15 cant solo one of the bosses almost as effectively, Part 3 Gee my level 20 deals with those puzzles so much better than my level 16 its incredible, Part 4 bash and be healed, someone got a dps comparrision chart for chars 13-20? Or realistically BAB 15 and above. Part 5 as 4.

    From the start, no one is saying that groups with level 20's should get full xp because having a level 20 in they are 3 levels higher than the raid was designed for, that is why everyone should be getting the 30%xp hit.

    The OP has made a reasonable request based on end game changes and I think they should be considered, it is not "selfish" as it has no impact on your play style at all and would benefit a few in a small consistent way.
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  19. #59
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    I never said I wanted full Xp for raiding with people 5 Lvls higher than me, I said Some!~!! Cant read good or what man? Keep Picking bits and peices of a Post and flip it and turn it in your favor so you can make your points look better . .Most of the people on here wont agree with 95% of the suggestions posted just because they are used to argueing or something, No real reason that people that QUALIFY for a Raid shoulnd get atleast SOME let me say it again "S-O-M-E" XP. read between that.
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  20. #60
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    Real reason why it is not a good idea to get xp on a level 13 with a level 20 on the party= xp farming.
    11 people lvl 13 on the shroud + 1 lvl 20 = not a big difference
    11 people lvl 20 on the shroud + a lvl 13 = u r getting a piggyback
    Piggyback while the rest of the party is ok with it = good
    Piggyback + xp = wrong
    Do we want turbine to spend resources and time on designing an elaborated code that can discerne lvls + party layouts and award different xp? also with the inherent risk of rendering the quest unaccesible (strong feeling of dejavu) = NO
    The xp system is working fine, say no to xp while powerleveled on raids.

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