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  1. #1
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Default "We all have to learn some time"

    You know, the elitism on some of the servers has me almost cringing in paranoia these days when I shamefully admit "sorry, this is my first time on this run" as we begin a quest. I've been dropped before as a result, or have witnessed people *mysteriously* losing their connection after I've said this, and so I've almost come to expect such reactions now. In fact, I often don't volunteer the information if it's not asked for, simply because people instantly either don't want you, or will view you as a liability. Or they somehow seem to think that simply because I haven't run a quest before, it's because I started the game yesterday. "Now Jarendil, this here is a beholder. You stay here and cower in the corner, and we professionals will go and kill it."
    (fyi, I have improved evasion, better saves than you, a deathblock robe, and can stunning fist the damned thing, thank you very much).

    But it was really nice lastnight when invited on a raid to which I admitted I was a virgin, that the leader responds "No problem at all, we all have to learn some time!".

    Very refreshing, and is what we *should* expect from a raid leader.
    Cheers, mate, much appreciated. /Salute.
    Last edited by Aerendil; 10-29-2009 at 08:37 AM. Reason: Grammar issue.

  2. #2
    Community Member Dozen_Black_Roses's Avatar
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    Good to see that from a raid leader. Most raid leaders should be capable of that, by looking at your level, I will assume it was either dragon or tempest spine, both of which are not hard raids to explain to folks as long as they listen.

    However, just keep in mind it might not always be your lack of experience. Your class has an inherent strike against it, monks unfortunately are not always well built, and often poorly equipped. Especially on our server, as we are new and there is only so much goods available on ah or vendors, and many here dont twink even if they have it to twink. This is not to say you are, as I have never run with you, but I know I have run with many monks, and only a few of them have made an impression on me that they carried their weight in the party. If they are using handwraps it's also easy to examine them, and see what kind of wraps they are using (which oftentimes is not very good).
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  3. #3
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozen_Black_Roses View Post
    However, just keep in mind it might not always be your lack of experience. Your class has an inherent strike against it, monks unfortunately are not always well built, and often poorly equipped. Especially on our server, as we are new and there is only so much goods available on ah or vendors, and many here dont twink even if they have it to twink. This is not to say you are, as I have never run with you, but I know I have run with many monks, and only a few of them have made an impression on me that they carried their weight in the party. If they are using handwraps it's also easy to examine them, and see what kind of wraps they are using (which oftentimes is not very good).
    See, now you're getting into stereotyping classes, which to me is no different than stereotyping people based on the fact they've never run a particular quest before.
    The only inherent problem with Monks previously was end-game dps (they had no way to bypass DR other than to switch to kamas or QSs, which any Monk with half a brain would have done previously). That's now solved as of Update 1. Sure, some are built poorly, but then so are the 8 con Drow Warchanters

    But anyways, from 1-16ish? Yeah, very strong class. And now they're pretty strong all the way to 20. We really need to ditch these silly stereotypes. I've seen poorly equipped, poorly played characters of ALL classes. Ranged rangers who refuse to melee; Barbarians who run ahead of the party and die; Rogues who can't disarm the simplest of traps. It happens. But I wouldn't generalize and assume an entire class is useless as a result.
    Last edited by Aerendil; 10-29-2009 at 10:09 AM.

  4. #4
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    I agree everyone has to learn. I hate people who seem to assume they just downloaded the game one day and at the same time downloaded the knowledge of every dungeon into their head and therefore needed no help. If you're good enough, you can explain as you go. The only time inexperience hurts a group is if the inexperienced player runs ahead of everyone, which seems unlikely Anyway, I'd be glad to have you run with me and if you see any groups with members from "The Tough Brets" you can bet it will be a good/informitive run. Anyway, my main characters are Drow (lvl 20 sorc) and Giddlypip (6 rog/5 rgr). Hit me up sometime.

  5. #5
    Community Member Gum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    You know, the elitism on some of the servers has me almost cringing in paranoia these days when I shamefully admit "sorry, this is my first time on this run" as we begin a quest. I've been dropped before as a result, or have witnessed people *mysteriously* losing their connection after I've said this, and so I've almost come to expect such reactions now. In fact, I often don't volunteer the information if it's not asked for, simply because people instantly either don't want you, or will view you as a liability. Or they somehow seem to think that simply because I haven't run a quest before, it's because I started the game yesterday. "Now Jarendil, this here is a beholder. You stay here and cower in the corner, and we professionals will go and kill it."
    (fyi, I have improved evasion, better saves than you, a deathblock robe, and can stunning fist the damned thing, thank you very much).

    But it was really nice lastnight when invited on a raid to which I admitted I was a virgin, that the leader responds "No problem at all, we all have to learn some time!".

    Very refreshing, and is what we *should* expect from a raid leader.
    Cheers, mate, much appreciated. /Salute.
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  6. #6
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    If I may make a couple of points to the OP:
    1) Overall, I agree with the statement that we all have to learn some time and that there needs to be more tolerance among players at higher levels. I have only been playing since F2P started and have pretty much learnt most of what is needed to work in a party. However there are a couple of supplementary points to go with this:

    2) While everyone has to learn some time, they should do so without dragging the rest of the party down with them. Let someone more experienced run ahead, wait for the rogue to run down that dangerous looking hallway first, conserve SP etc etc. Ask for the advice and take it all on board. Find players who have been instructive and informative before and run more instances with them.

    3) "F2P" and "P2P" are not acronyms put there to make the LFG window look pretty. They actually mean something and if you don't know what they mean, learn now! Had to cycle through about 3 or 4 people (in just one try at LFM) who didn't bother reading that we were doing P2P.

    4) Common sense, a modicum of intelligence and an ability to follow instruction is all I ask. If you possess these skills it doesn't matter what class you play, I will at least take my time to help you.

    Anyway, /rantoff

  7. #7
    Community Member xanvar's Avatar
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    I don't think Cannith is as bad as some of the other servers when it comes to dealing with new people to quests. Yesterday I ran pretty steady through Tangleroot, STK and Deleras with 4 other people, two where free to play that bought STK and Deleras adventure packs. I think they must have felt comfortable as new players or else why spend the money? The funny part is that I started the group for tangleroot listed as a fast run bring your own healing and they joined anyway
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  8. #8
    Community Member AvanTheThird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giddlypip View Post
    I agree everyone has to learn. I hate people who seem to assume they just downloaded the game one day and at the same time downloaded the knowledge of every dungeon into their head and therefore needed no help. If you're good enough, you can explain as you go. The only time inexperience hurts a group is if the inexperienced player runs ahead of everyone, which seems unlikely Anyway, I'd be glad to have you run with me and if you see any groups with members from "The Tough Brets" you can bet it will be a good/informitive run. Anyway, my main characters are Drow (lvl 20 sorc) and Giddlypip (6 rog/5 rgr). Hit me up sometime.
    I have to agree that people from "The Tough Brets" are really nice. I ran TS and VoN with them some time back and we had quite a number of new people in the raid, myself included. The raid leaders patiently explained what was happening and what we can expect. My only complaint is, they don't play enough. :P Hopefully, we'll see more guilds like them around in Cannith. It's nice not to get the cold shoulder whenever you tell people straight off that you are new to the dungeon.

  9. #9
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirZorr View Post
    If I may make a couple of points to the OP:
    *snip*
    Anyway, /rantoff
    SirZorr, I’m getting the impression that you’re assuming I’m a F2P player. I’m not. I’m a vip, and have been for quite a while (search my name – you’ll find posts going back quite some time). I’ve played on and off for a few years now, and know several classes *very* well, but given my limited gaming time available I don’t have any capped characters, and I do tend to come across some quests that I’ve simply never done before. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m doing.
    The problem is, and perhaps this is the underlying issue, that there is an assumption now that a quest first-timer = F2P noobcake = liability to the team, and that’s not necessarily the case – for 2 reasons. Just because someone hasn’t run a quest before doesn’t mean they’re a F2P player; and even if they are a F2P player, they’re not necessarily a complete dumbass. I’ve grouped with some F2P folk who have played other MMOs and know perfectly well how to listen to orders, work as a team, and make the most out of their characters; and I’ve also grouped with some VIPs/vets who were some of the most ignorant, conceited, selfish sons of … you’ve ever come across.
    One other F2P thing to consider – they’re extra subscriptions. Sure, they probably don’t pay much if anything at all, but they bring in the numbers. And they’re bound to spend *some* money at some point. More subs = more $$$ for Turbine = better chance DDO survives, and we eventually get druids, half-orcs, etc. If we cause these people to leave due to our inability to show them the ropes, then we’ll lose any chance at a better DDO, IMO.

  10. #10
    Community Member Sylvurdragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    SirZorr, I’m getting the impression that you’re assuming I’m a F2P player. I’m not. I’m a vip, and have been for quite a while (search my name – you’ll find posts going back quite some time). I’ve played on and off for a few years now, and know several classes *very* well, but given my limited gaming time available I don’t have any capped characters, and I do tend to come across some quests that I’ve simply never done before. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m doing.
    The problem is, and perhaps this is the underlying issue, that there is an assumption now that a quest first-timer = F2P noobcake = liability to the team, and that’s not necessarily the case – for 2 reasons. Just because someone hasn’t run a quest before doesn’t mean they’re a F2P player; and even if they are a F2P player, they’re not necessarily a complete dumbass. I’ve grouped with some F2P folk who have played other MMOs and know perfectly well how to listen to orders, work as a team, and make the most out of their characters; and I’ve also grouped with some VIPs/vets who were some of the most ignorant, conceited, selfish sons of … you’ve ever come across.
    One other F2P thing to consider – they’re extra subscriptions. Sure, they probably don’t pay much if anything at all, but they bring in the numbers. And they’re bound to spend *some* money at some point. More subs = more $$$ for Turbine = better chance DDO survives, and we eventually get druids, half-orcs, etc. If we cause these people to leave due to our inability to show them the ropes, then we’ll lose any chance at a better DDO, IMO.
    /clap /applaud +1 I couldn't have said this better myself.

    I was actually a F2P player that came from numerous MMO's (Everquest, EQ2, WoW, to name a few) and just recently went VIP More money for Turbine and more fun for me!! :-D Not to toot my own horn, but on the subject of "noobness"...there were many quests that I was not familiar with, but even as a F2P player, there are many people in my guild who would specifically ask for me to come out when working on a quest they know they will need a good rogue for. F2P does not equal reputation. You build that, yourself.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
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    Certainly a valid point. On a side note, one needs to be reminded that some Vets, not all certainly, aren't that capable themselves. I've watched the advice channel on Cannith, and everyday several long time forum posters are giving out incorrect/misunderstood and simply wrong information. Sure, some of them are meant as a joke, but several posters actually get into arguements with people they assume are new. It's particularly amusing
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  12. #12

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    I have the luxury of announcing when I haven't done a quest before or am not very familiar with it, cause I'm the healer, and we're hard to replace.

  13. #13
    Community Member xanvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    I have the luxury of announcing when I haven't done a quest before or am not very familiar with it, cause I'm the healer, and we're hard to replace.
    Nah healers are easily replaced with a few potions and hireling. Now if you do more than heal then that brings value to the group
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvanTheThird View Post
    I have to agree that people from "The Tough Brets" are really nice. I ran TS and VoN with them some time back and we had quite a number of new people in the raid, myself included. The raid leaders patiently explained what was happening and what we can expect. My only complaint is, they don't play enough. :P Hopefully, we'll see more guilds like them around in Cannith. It's nice not to get the cold shoulder whenever you tell people straight off that you are new to the dungeon.
    Ah thanks I'm glad you enjoyed the run! Whats ur guys name on the server? We're actually on quite a bit, usually between 4pm and midnight (central time) on weekdays. I'm not sure what your levels are but send a tell to Giddlypip of Drow sometime between those hours and we'll see what we can do

  15. #15
    Community Member AvanTheThird's Avatar
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    I ran with you on Natsu, a drow sorceror back then. You were still playing Drow Sorceror then. :P Been busy lately and am playing a 32 point alt now. Will look you up and thanks for the offer.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    ...and even if they are a F2P player, they’re not necessarily a complete dumbass.
    High praise
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  17. #17
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    The group I run with always tends to ask if anyone is new to the quest. And if so, we tend to go a little bit slower, to show them around.

    For a long while I was the total noob, going "neat, never done this one before!", and poking around various places in the quests, and often getting myself killed in the process. The hazards of being a 12-con bard.

    But "we all have to learn sometime" is definitely true. I try to be helpful to the people who are just starting out, cause a lot of people were really helpful to me when I was a newbie (all of three months ago at this point!).

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