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  1. #1
    Community Member Wyrmnax's Avatar
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    Default AC, how much do you need?

    I know, you either go with 0, or you focus a lot on it.

    But how much do you need?

    I mean, my wizard's 14 ac could as well be 0 withouth any problem at lv 13. But if i plan on having AC, how much of it will i need?

    IE: more directly, is there a way to know the BAB of monsters on diverse levels to know if your AC is making any kind of difference?

  2. #2
    Community Member Maxou69's Avatar
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    40-50 is not worthless and 60 should be your goal if you are an AC build. (and please don't tell me that you have 108...lol)

    Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normalI think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Well there is no STOCK answer, but as long as the monsters miss you on more than just 1's, AC has value in that it reduces incoming hits. However, that does need to be cautioned by considering what you are giving up in those slots to get the AC. The BEST single AC effect you can get as a Wizard is Displacement. That right there makes your AC effectively good enough that half the attacks miss you.

    On a more serious note, by the time you are level 13, the mobs you are facing in places like Gianthold have to hit bonuses on the order of +30 or more. So anything below that is just the same as 0. But it also means that someone in the 50 range is almost untouchable at those levels.

    When the mobs were adding +5 to hit in the Harbor or Korthos Isle a 15 AC was very very useful. When the mobs are adding +30 to hit, that same AC is like nothing. When the Raid Bosses are getting things like +65 to hit, lesser AC again becomes ineffective.

    With my Wizards, I ignore AC effects and boosts at high levels. Displacement and Stoneskin are the staples of avoiding damage.
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  4. #4
    Community Member foxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxou69 View Post
    40-50 is not worthless and 60 should be your goal if you are an AC build. (and please don't tell me that you have 108...lol)

    Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normalI think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.


    under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.
    as far as a wiz, goes, forget ac.

  5. #5
    Community Member Wyrmnax's Avatar
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    Doh.

    I dont care about AC for my wiz. Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin and not getting ganged up is all i need.

    I meant i am making a fighter, and i want to know what kind of AC i should be aiming for at low, mid and high levels.

  6. #6
    Community Member KoboldKiller's Avatar
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    AC? BAH.

    DPS is KING!!!!!!

    If you kill it fast enough it can't hit you.
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    Go for the eyes Boo!

  7. #7
    Community Member Dexxaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxx View Post
    under 75-80 at end game is as good as 14.
    as far as a wiz, goes, forget ac.
    A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

    Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

    My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting Hold Person on you.



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  8. #8
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    For most wizards a 0 AC is as good as it is worth getting. Miss chance spells, twitch, and blocking DR (for certain builds) are what you rely on instead. If it is a general question of when AC matters. I would say if you have under 60 AC at end game (with buffs) your AC is going to be largely pointless. AC in the 70 range grants you large miss chances by most mobs in game. AC in the 80's range give you the same deal for the end game raid bosses. AC in the 90's makes you only hit on 20's or grazing blows...at least until epic comes out then who knows. Remember when doing AC calculations that pali aura, barkskin, haste, recitation, clickies, shield wands, and bard AC song are all a real possibility in raid situations so your base AC may go up a heck of a lot in those cases.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxou69 View Post
    Harry's (shroud) attack bonus is 52 on normal I think but will you have aggro thats another question? If you don't have aggro you don't need ac.
    Let's just take this as fact, that on normal Shroud (the quest most players are familiar with) the attack bonus is +52. That means to have enough AC where only 20s hit you need 72 AC. It also means a 53 AC is getting hit every time.

    Because Harry's aggro is random you might never be the target of an attack. Or, you might be the target of every attack. So, how much AC do you need?

    Figure sustained raid buffs through a full round with Harry as +15 from constant haste, ranger barkskin, paladin full aura and a bard song. If you're shooting for that 72 it means you need a standing AC of 57.

    Please note that this will be good through the Shroud -- on normal. Newer content and higher difficulty settings will shift this upward.

  10. #10
    Community Member paul1devries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexxaan View Post
    A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

    Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

    My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting Hold Person on you.



    .
    Hmm well i guess i agree and disagree. I think with a 65 ac you are going to be hit a ton on raid bosses and chew up alot of cleric mana - but then again you will not likely die as 500+ hitpoints gives the cleric time to heal you when you get down below 50%.

    I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.

    I guess that falls in the exception class? But if the exception is the norm for builds trying to get high ac, then are they not viable builds?

    Oh yeah, and it is more than worth it to beat down on the 600+ hitpoint guys in PvP while they keep whiffing at you.......

    Cheers

  11. #11
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    the bab on shroud normal is 47 not 52; 67 ac is the safe point for shroud normal

    63-67 ac is also relative safety from all endgame trash mobs that are not tiefling archers or barbazu; you will need to be in the mid-70s before barbazu stop hitting you.

  12. #12
    Community Member redraider's Avatar
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    I run a Mobster build - TWF 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Rog that has mid 50's AC in TWF mode but has Defender II and can hit low 80's raid buffed with a shield (Theorectical max of 91 but have never been there). Don't listen to Kobold Killer. DPS is not king and hasn't been for a while. Max DPS is nice but a good AC with good DPS is much better. Being able to switch between TWF DPS mode and AC Mode is priceless. Oh, and have 467 Hps in Intim/AC mode and 507 in DPS mode.

    Here is a prospective breakdown in light armor and I'm sure I've missed something.

    10 base
    10 armor (mith breast of destruction)
    7 dex (with ftr armor mast II and ftr tower mast II plus Defender bonus)
    9 Mith Tower shield
    1 Alchemical Armor Ritual
    1 Alchemical Shield Ritual
    5 nat(bark)
    5 Prot
    1 Dodge feat
    2 Chaos Guards
    2 Favored Enemy
    4 Insight (shroud)
    3 chattering ring dodge
    5 Pali Aura
    2 Recitation
    5 Combat Expertise
    2 Stalwart Defender II AC Bonus
    3 Stalwart Defender II +3 Dodge Stance Bonus
    4 Blocking Armor Bonus
    4 Bard
    1 Haste
    5 Human Vesatility Armor Clicky
    _____
    91 AC (take off the clicky and pali aura for a normal blocking 81)
    Last edited by redraider; 10-20-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Wyrmnax's Avatar
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    All right. On the 70s for raid stuff.... means almost 60 standing... sounds good.

    What about middle level stuff? If your being hit too much, you need more ac, if not you dont?

    Or anyone has a idea of BAB of stuff on gianthold, the desert, etc?

  14. #14
    Community Member foxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexxaan View Post
    A bit extreme IMO, but with the implementation (Stupid...but it`s here) of glancing blows....I`d say that if you have a 65 - 70 AC you are set for end game. (ETAC of course)

    Anything over 70 means you are probably a 360 HP or less Build and you are gonna get owned. Exception? Tons of em...but more than likely the price of being an overbuffed 85* AC build is high in most cases.

    My Advice: Aim for 65+ but make sure you have 500 HP`s, can hit Mobs, hurt Mobs, and save against a CR 5 Kobold Shaman casting .



    i'm not an ac player, fact is, under 72, raid bosses will eat you alie like you don't even have an ac.

    btw
    your therories need alot of work.

  15. #15
    Community Member assamite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    For most wizards a 0 AC is as good as it is worth getting. Miss chance spells, twitch, and blocking DR (for certain builds) are what you rely on instead. If it is a general question of when AC matters. I would say if you have under 60 AC at end game (with buffs) your AC is going to be largely pointless. AC in the 70 range grants you large miss chances by most mobs in game. AC in the 80's range give you the same deal for the end game raid bosses. AC in the 90's makes you only hit on 20's or grazing blows...at least until epic comes out then who knows. Remember when doing AC calculations that pali aura, barkskin, haste, recitation, clickies, shield wands, and bard AC song are all a real possibility in raid situations so your base AC may go up a heck of a lot in those cases.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul1devries View Post
    I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.
    may I ask for more information about your Horoth tanking? how many times you have tanked it successfully? and do you have other dps beat it from the back?

    the first doubt in my mind is that 365 HP won't work because it will disintegrate you at 500 a hit, and it will stun and drop your HP very fast. as you said it works, I would want your clarification.

    the second doubt is how do you manage to hold Horoth's aggro, say, when a barb is hitting it from the back. Perhaps you have all the hate generation gears, or you don't have any other hitter.
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  17. #17
    Community Member assamite's Avatar
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    If you can get mid 50 ac by yourself your in good shape for raids. Defender AC is on top now as it should be, no longer monks . I only have my ac on for trash so i use less party resources. When we get to the boss i do away with ac and put on guards,
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  18. #18
    Community Member Atoth's Avatar
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    Default Ac

    Need is a subjective term at anything below high level fights
    AC depends on what the bonus your opponent has so you need 20 more than the bonus something needs to hit you, so somenone said Gianthold is +32 average you need 52

    If you have 1 point less than 20+attack bonus you need 2x as much healing as you get hit 2x as often

    at level 1-3 things rarely have more than +5 so 25 is good (it is easy to beat at low levels)

    the best way to tell is run an instance and just watch the dice or combat log add 20 to the highest bonus you see and that is how much you need

    At low levels like I said if you have less than (20 ac more than the bonus to hit you just need more healing)

    I may be totaly wrong but i think this is how it works as I am low level ATM, keep in mind also there are ac debufs, which means you may need more ac depending on the fight

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul1devries View Post
    Hmm well i guess i agree and disagree. I think with a 65 ac you are going to be hit a ton on raid bosses and chew up alot of cleric mana - but then again you will not likely die as 500+ hitpoints gives the cleric time to heal you when you get down below 50%.

    I am one of those 80-90 ac guys with 365 hitpoints and have had no issues tanking raid bosses including Horoth and obviously almost never get hit by non raid bad guys. So owned? I don't think so - most of these builds like i do have dual min2's or dual lightning 2s for raid bosses and do good damage. For non raid - same weapons or dual WOPs.

    I guess that falls in the exception class? But if the exception is the norm for builds trying to get high ac, then are they not viable builds?

    Oh yeah, and it is more than worth it to beat down on the 600+ hitpoint guys in PvP while they keep whiffing at you.......

    Cheers
    roll a 1 when tanking horoth and you'll wish you have more hp
    If you want to know why...

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddoer View Post
    may I ask for more information about your Horoth tanking? how many times you have tanked it successfully? and do you have other dps beat it from the back?

    the first doubt in my mind is that 365 HP won't work because it will disintegrate you at 500 a hit, and it will stun and drop your HP very fast. as you said it works, I would want your clarification.

    the second doubt is how do you manage to hold Horoth's aggro, say, when a barb is hitting it from the back. Perhaps you have all the hate generation gears, or you don't have any other hitter.
    most likely they were using the solo tank method
    If you want to know why...

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