All I see is bars...
If I throw some of my best heals at a bar and it hardly moves (ie less than a barb), I make a comment to the wizzy of the groupand stop healing that toon unless I know it won't hurt the party. If I am trying to keep a frontline/aggro-grabbing WF up and it has no mitigation to the healing deficit the group suffers. I can keep crappy fighters that focus only on DPS and have no damage mitigation and the rangers that dont even have the hit points for it up, but not a WF Barb with a huge lack of heal-ability.
If your cleric cannot handle CC, find another one. If I'm wasting to much SP on Frontliners, I become one instead, it can be done but it sucks... a lot. Sounds like you could be having an issue with nanny-bots that have no idea of how to cast offensively/strategically. I was once one of these myself.
You should either look at getting healing ability up to around 80% effectiveness(or more), have plenty of healing in the party, take it up with the Wizzy, or all of the above.
If you are in a party, you are likely not the only one contributing to the quest... you should not be using all of the SP.
for the record, if you're having SP problems while trying to crowd control and heal at the same time, maybe you should ask the wizard to do crowd control because he's better at it, and that's what his class is all about.
what i see so far in this thread is not a problem with the warforged race, it's clerics that don't have a clue and a lack of communication between party members. as the designated healer, if you are concerned that you can't handle it, it should be YOUR job to "take it up with the wizzy", and/or explain to the group that their tactics suck.
I have been running into this mentality a lot with my new wf barb. In PuGs where he is consistently outkilling anyone else in the party, often the entire rest of the party combined, but getting no heals at all from either cleric nor arcane (emphais on the word PuG here).
Does that mean the cleric has chosen to "not waste his sp"? Not at all, for some reason he's dumping all his sp into healing people who are barely killing anything while the "waste of sp" wf is throwing away a fortune chugging potions.
For those out there who play clerics a lot, am I misunderstanding and it's not the fact that I'm playing a wf, but the fact that I'm chugging potions what is making you decide not to heal me at all? Because the idea behind that is me just trying to help the cleric out.
But if that is just going to lead to negative consequences for me, then perhaps I should go the route that is getting all the positive reinforcement - ie. the dex based short sword battle bard who doesn't have any healing spells or wands and only gets a minute fraction of the wf barb's kills. That wouldn't be considered a waste of your sp?!!!
Ultimately, making decisions about who to heal based on race, is absurd. Decide who to heal based on contribution and usefulness. Refuse to heal someone because they are playing like idiots and getting themselves killed or bringing to much agro at a time to the party and not dealing with it themselves. If you're going to decide not to heal a good player simply because they chose to play a wf, you're not really proving that they chose the wrong race, you're actually proving that you yourself are a moron and they chose the wrong player to invite to the party when they invited you.
Last edited by Ghoste; 11-09-2009 at 06:29 PM.
Stupidity abounds and gets renewed with each new influx of players.
I have many wf, and the first year of the game was a lot of wf hate. Most or nearly all of my characters are very self-sufficent as a result, even if that means taking off a few points of dps at the level cap to do so. You cannot expect all pug clerics to be good, or even useful, or just ******** as many are. Keep yourself alive and let em die.
I also have several clerics - and the reverse is also true. Healing a wf with no ac, no healers friend (which you can tell how much they have by the % they get healed vs healing yourself). Then it comes down to whether the melee is stupid or not.
A melee that is doing most of the killing (and any non-brain dead player should be able to tell within a short time who is doing most of the damage in a group), deserves most of the healing. A melee that is maybe good, maybe not - but every single fight gets blasted to near death, AND refuses to drink any pots, AND runs into a fight without waiting to get wand healed say while sitting at 5% health so 2 hits will kill them - they deserve to die also. Often that bad player is also 'losing out' on the kill counts, which means they not only are taking all the damage, but NOT doing the killing. You lead in kills, and take lots of damage? Much better chance of being healed.
My cleric has a rule at low to mid levels when he is meleeing and using spells to kill stuff - if the melee cant kill any better than the cleric, but is taking up ALL my mana to keep alive - then they are not worth the effort in keeping alive. I have had one group that started swearing at me because I was "not doing my job" in chasing the idiots around dying every other room - when my cleric was actually buffing up with potions, and doing most of the killing. If my cleric can solo a room full of elite hobgoblins in STK at level 6, and the other 5 idiots are dying when they run off and try to kill one room - they dont deserve healing. By level 8-10, once a real melee can kill better than my cleric - I step back and spend most of the time just healing ....until I get Destruction....
Like ppl said - it is a group game - either work together or do everyone a favor and just solo so not to inflict your stupidity and bad playing on others. PLay smart, pay attention to what is going on, and everyone gets happy.
many sword and board builds have great defensive potential that, if the group would slow down enough to make good use of, would allow the cleric to, ironically, have a much more active role in the group by sparing him enough SP for other purposes (destruction, to use your example, or, god forbid, buffs...). naturally this kind of thing does require a little patience, but the tradeoff is lower risk for the completion of the quest -- and ultimately, it is only the completion of the quest that matters in terms of rewards. of course, going for a little defense will decrease the big pretty numbers that you like to show your friends, but if you didn't want to play *with* the group in the first place, then you wouldn't have anyone to show your big pretty numbers to anyway! the only numbers that should impress anyone in this game are the ones with "xp" or "gp" appended...
the overhead of earning those rewards can be minimized with judicious use of defensive tactics. it is happy coincidence that clerics benefit greatly by this: they use fewer wands and scrolls when the party's incoming damage (and/or afflictions) is easily handled by pure SP resources. and as they say, if momma ain't happy, ain't no body happy.
saving the healer's SP, making economical use of the group's resources (whether renewable or, in the long term, consumable), is what the gameplay of DDO is (theoretically) designed to encouraged and reward as proper understanding and interaction with the game's mechanics. when you profit or succeed by simply "zerging" around in a quest (or even, in the opposite extreme, dilly dallying about) that can be considered an exploit of the generosity of the game's design. sure such abuse is allowed explicitly by the game's function, but the game also reserves the prerogative to not reward such selfish behavior (especially as it is a multiplayer oriented game).
yes, damage needs to be done. but not at the expense of the entire party. the interests of the group are not contradictory because it is absolutely possible to be a destroyer while working with a little more restraint with the purpose of not costing your group members undue expense. as the game is designed with separated group function (or "roles") in mind, most people assume that the cleric is the only person who has to deal with "the healing". in truth though, it's a group effort: do your part to help the cleric do his, because there are a lot of things more important than kill counts.
the ethics of abuse of group resources really are something that anyone reading this should have learned before the age of 5...
I believe a barb once told me (After my question of "How the hell do you survive with 12 rage AC") something along the lines of:
"I smack stuff. When I smack stuff, it dies. When stuff dies after I smacked it, it doesnt smack me back."
He was pretty much dead on, he didn't take much damage (nor did anyone else in the group) because everything died so fast.
Only read the first page, but here goes:
First, on my clerics I heal everyone in the middle of battles, wf or not. Even a WF caster will get some healing from me if I see they've got agro, just in case they don't have quicken or otherwise still casting offensively or whatever.
But if you don't account for party makeup I admit it can be challenging. I did Sorjek the other day with a very good caster and 2 WF melees in the group. The end was rough. Since the primary cleric objective is keeping the caster up while they firewall Sorjek and have all the agro. Now with the caster thus occupied and not able to help out WF healing, trying to keep them up during the mephits between heals on the caster got really ugly. Ultimately all the melees died and the caster was pretty much out of mana. I stepped behind Sorjek and spammed mass cures. This kept the sorc up, added damage to Sorjek, and kept me up with the mephits on my back. Had to suck down a few pots but oh well it got the quest finished.
Clearly there were some tactical isues there too, but that's beside the point. I'm just saying I do see it as my job to heal WF too, even in a sub-optimal situation that may drain resources. And I'm saying there is a point where to ensure your party can complete the quest takes precedence, at which you might need to stop healing WF if you have limited resources and need to reserve or focus them on a specific completion objective. Really that's extrememely rare for any vet players though, but can be an issue for someone who is new to the game and playing a cleric with no higher-level alts to help them with resources.
I heal WF... when they are useful and I'm not forcing myself to waste 50% of my non-SP resources on them (scrolls). If they are just causing me to blow all of my mana or scrolls on them when they are not the only ones doing/taking damage, especially on a shrine starved instance and especially when the SP is needed elsewhere(perfect example is hound raid). There seems to be this common misconception that a cleric is just a healbot, which is true if you are new to the game or MMOs in general. I may throw a few buffs here and there when needed and while I am no Wizzy, I can CC pretty well. Its a lot easier for my team-mates to beat up mobs on the ground and not take damage than playing follow the toaster. If you want someone who just heals... look for a FTP or someone new.
If you want to play a WF, you have to look at additional issues that fleshy frontliners do not have to. AC can be an issue, and healing. I am an equal opportunity hater. I hate on fleshies that suck as much as poor WF builds. Every frontliner needs to have a balance of DPS, AC(proper damage mitigation), HP (longevity), and saves/resistances/immunities/aggro management (general survivability),or stick to what they know they can run.
Many props to the WF that can hold their own or offer something in return for scrolls used and more to those that know how to build a toon that truly belongs on the frontline.
Look, WF immunities on my several of my toons have saved parties of noobs before. When that ogre crit cleaves and the only tank left standing was my WF ftr in Elite WW back in the day, or Jungs Badge quest, guess who pulled it off? Yeah, back then we had REAL penalties for dying and re entering, and we didnt have all this DDO store raise dead all the time. So it mattered.
Healers need to remember the WF arent going "restore" and "neutralize poison" and "ooh I dont have a lot of hps" every 10 seconds, unless they themselves are noobs. Funny thing is, at end game, these days, I see a TON of love for the WF tanks that a caster can help scroll Reconstruct these days and keep clerics happy while in a quest like VoD or ToD where CURSES dont affect Reconstruct spells!
WF, the true master race of ddo...
DO AWAY WITH DUNGEON ALERT< BRING BACK INDIVIDUAL DEATH PENALTIES!
It makes better players of all of us.
I have both a cleric AND a Warforged (though no WF clerics ), so I think I can weigh in on this.
1. Don't expect WF to take Healer's Friend 2 or 3 in most builds. If you had an enhancement to get +15% healing effectiveness for 2 APs (7.5% per AP), you'd take that right? Now if the second level was only another +5% for FOUR APs (1.25% per AP), you wouldn't, would you? So don't expect it of WF if you wouldn't take it either.
2. In between combat, it's ok to ask them to drink pots, or ask the arcane caster to heal the WF up. It is NOT ok to exect the arcane (who most likely has a mindset of focusing on CC or nuking) to also pay attention to the WF's health bar, and it is also NOT ok to expect the WF to stop fighting and chain-chug repair pots in the middle of combat. If they get low in combat, heal them. End of story.
3. If you're in a party with a WF, and you're running low on SP, ask yourself, "Am I running low on SP because I can't heal the WF efficiently, or am I low on SP because I'm having to throw person X a heal every 3 seconds because they keep running into traps/aggroing tons of mobs on their own/ect?" If it's because of the WF, then you can tell them to be more self-suffiecent, but if it's because of another player, don't penalize the WF for the other player's idiocy.
1. Unless you're an arcane and can heal yourself up, Healer's Friend 1 is well worth it. Yes, even on a WF Paladin.
2. Everyone should have a degree of self-sufficiency. As such, bring pots and/or wands you can use on yourself.
3. If the cleric just flat-out refuses to heal you even though you're a healer's friend and are killing more than your fair share of the mobs, then flat-out refuse to protect them. Fair's fair...
Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game. I will not heal them as a cleric on grounds they are an abomination. I will not heal them as a wizard as I have no interest in being their healbot. I will not play them, period. Like many new things added to DnD, they are OPed - note the number of threads telling others there is no race for wizards other than WF - not healing was the weakness of the wizard, they should have not allowed them to heal themselves (that would have made them more scarce). I would have prefered them to have included gnomes (at least they are useful when food was scarce).
Flame me if you like. I pay for my accounts, so I will play it my way. Don't like it, play with someone else. Or better yet, heal yourself. Much like people demanding haste (which I don't mind doing), I don't tell others how to play their characters. I don't whine when they don't do it my way. If I don't like them, I don't run with them again.
I have played warfogeds since they came out in paper and we have played pure warforgeds partys in D&D as well in DDO.
They are simply best.
If i can get a party where there is warfoged tank, rog and mage, where do i need more members? We got all we need already.
I have never taken the healers friend APE's and will prolly never take 'em. Only time i am running low in HPs is when i am the only one taking all the agro or i am playing quests that are lot higher than my own level. I am usually the one left standing after fights or the one chasing mobs that the fool wiz/clr/weak tank/rog has agroed. Or i might end up in low HPs after cleaning a part of dungeon on my own while others are resting or idling. If the Clr has problem casting cures on me, well, i am not going to charge in combat under 20% HPs. I will simply stare when that ogre goes smashing that Clr to red plump. Then i will kill the ogres, trolls, hobgoblins, beholders and ice flensers to get the rest of the partys stones to rais shrine. While they whine about how things went so bad, i got myself cup of tea. Usually when i get back, the party has figured out that its a party game.
Clr can also go offensive build where they dish out damage and curses mages can't compare. I have encountered those and have rised my cap for those. "You should be our healer" 'Too bad, i am here to smite EVIL'.
Like earlier said, if you disable your opponent, there is no need for regain.
If mages have problem on using one spell slot for repair, then he should be smart enough to get something that prevents it. Like stoneskin. And keep it on all the time. Stoneskin is the second best spell in whole game for preventing damage just after displacement. If the player of the mage thinks the class is all about DPS, he is in wrong game.
If someone demands me to be self-sufficient in HP gaining, i usually put some regeneration items on and sit and wait it out. If you ask one member to spend tons of cash to be able to get up in HPs, then you have to ask all of the members.
If you can't figure out who or what they were, you can instead think what race could possibly match this kind of threat. As a hint i tell you that they are not born.
Since AD&D/beta looking to play D&D 3½ online. Still looking.
I felt I should post after the experience I had yesterday. I decided to roll a WF barb and wanted some fast exp after I got off the vet boat, I trade over a docent and weapon and joined a PUG for WW. We go through the first quest and I lead the kill count with 3 times as many kills as the human fighter who was the other dps toon in the party. Despite this I didn't get any heals from the cleric and was having to waste rages to get the extra HP to kill the mobs, the pally tank was having to heal me and I was down to 9 HP with no pots (new toon so little supplies) at the end of part 1.
We go into part 2 and I ask if the cleric is gonna heal me this time. He said he couldn't heal me, I said its quite simple click on my name then use the hotkey for the cure wounds spells you have. He says I'm not gonna heal you your WF.
The /sleep command that makes WF 'turn off' was perfect for this situation. I just laid on the floor and told him the party would go without DPS then. The party almost wipes in the first boss room and the cleric complains at me then leaves. I got up and finished the quest with everyone else.
After joining another PUG on my WF FvS I was told there was noone that could heal me in the party. I told the guy to look at the symbol by my name and then think over why what he had just said was a stupid comment.
Clerics have no reason for not healing WF, if your worried about sp play a FvS instead. If your a role player and as Tuscarora wrote 'Warforged are an abomination and never should have been allowed in the game' you can go without the highest average DPS toons (barbs, monsters, archons) and toons with the highest survivability (sorcs).
Um wow. What server are you on? I ask because on Argo there are plenty of toons (WF and others) that are ineffective. If I can heal someone, I do, but if I see that I will run out of mana well before the next shrine or I will end up spending a bunch of pots on someone who doesn't accomplish what they need to, they can die for all I care. All to often I see these WF that just don't seem to understand that they are often not needed in a group. I even play a warforged and tell the healer to just try to keep me up in battle if needed (and take proper steps to make sure that its needed as little as possible) if I only have healers friend I. And yes, if a WF does not have at least HFI then the player should know that A CLERIC IS INCAPABLE OF KEEPING A TOON WITH 500+HP UP IF THEY LOSE 200+HP EVERY TIME THEY SWING (there are a few quests that are exceptions to this). Even with a max amount of SP and not doing any buffing or cc. I personally don't see why the group should fail because we took a WF that cannot handle itself into the group... 9 times out of 10 we do just fine without them.
Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of players that can handle a WF and plenty of players that are willing to work with the cleric concerning the cost of keeping them alive. Also, most clerics once they get past the whole nannybot thing accept the fact that yes, we are there to heal, but sometimes focusing SP somewhere else can negate damage in the first place. Most often the issue here is not relations but proper toon building and play style on both sides of the line.
I guess my main point is that between a sucky flesh build and a sucky WF, I'll heal the sucky flesh build, at least with SDVIII they can usually stay up with the rest of the group.
I basically see this break down into 2 different camps. Either you're a smart player or you're in the other camp.. This applys not only to the cleric, but to all of the classes. Being self suffecient should be a no brainer but hey it seems that alot of folks haven't grasped this espically at lowlevels. One of the main reasons I don't do proof in the posion, not that it's a hard quest it's just i've done it too many times with folks that are in the 2nd camp..
Also at low levels clerics don't have alot of sp's, which means they should be learning how to best deal with what it is they have (very similar for wizards). Sometimes they do make mistakes hey we are all human it happens, but not learning from those mistakes... well there's another word for that.
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