Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 111
  1. #41
    Founder Rylex_Night-Shield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    The answer is obvious. You continue to produce and market more content; it's the same principle that is at work with regards to DLCs and expansions, and it is a proven and effective way of continuing to make money from the same intellectual property and game over an extended period of time. Don't alienate players by nickle and diming them for things that should be standard features. Instead, keep them on board by waiving those expenses and offer products that they'd be glad to purchase, and that you are ultimately going to make more money on. Simple.
    How fast do you think that Turbine can produce more content? DDO in it's almost 4 years of being live has never produced an expansion. If I remember right, I think they actually promised us way back in the beginning that all in-game content would be free (for P2P players now that sort of applies). These huge places like Giant Hold, Desert, and Vale take months to prepare; from concept to mapping and then structuring to play testing. Not to mention the story telling and candies (loot) available. They could make cookie cutter maps and release them quickly but that would be boring as hell. "Wait, haven't I been in here before? Oh yeah, there's orcs in here instead of kobolds..." and then no one would buy it any ways.

    Thus, a point you seem to be forgetting is what is Turbine doing to make the P2P players happy? If they don't keep the P2P players happy, suddenly DDO will see a HUGE drop in profit. The highest priced quest pack I think is Giant Hold at 995 TP's so about $11 to buy it. How long do you think it took to make that pack? It's a huge map, with 10 dungeons and a raid and very nice loot that even lv 20's still run w/o being epic. But then, a F2P player can buy it for under the cost of 1 month of a P2P player. There's no way that Turbine (or anyone else really) could produce such high quality content faster. So, there has to be SOMETHING to keep the P2P players content to continue to pay a monthly fee. The only way Turbine could equal the costs out for P2P vs F2P players is to start charging packs at 4-5x their current TP's.

    Are they nickle and diming F2P players? Yup, they are. But at a cost of less then a fast food meal, it's not that hard to swallow. And it might even be good for my waist line. You also seem to be thinking that it should be free? There's no level sigils in WoW... but last I checked, you couldn't go above lv 60 unless you buy 1 expansion, lv 70 w/o another expansion and soon not to lv 85 w/o purchasing another expansion... of which if you want lv 85, you need to own all 3. You're not going to be in many raids at lv 60 when all the good stuff is at 85.

    Ultimately, I want Turbine to keep DDO up for many more months to come. But it needs to be profitable to remain open. No company in their right mind would continue to operate a business that's barely making it into the black each month. One big disaster can ruin them. There's also many factors that neither you or I can judge. What is Turbine's profit margin in DDO? What will become of the lawsuit between them and Atari? Is it possible for a 3rd company to undermine and/or buy out the rights to DDO?

    How close was DDO to the red before F2P was introduced? No one but inside personal have that info and it would never be released to the public until quarterly earnings are posted and even then, DDO would be mixed in with their other MMO's. We could all log in tomorrow and be locked out of game. Someone might have just bought 10,000 TP's and the world servers are brought down. You could visit the DDO forum page to be welcomed with a huge "We're Closed" sign. The question for all players, P2P and F2P is, "did you have fun playing the game while we had it"? I for one can honestly say yes I did. That includes having to buy sigils when I couldn't find them.

    Peace.

  2. #42
    Stormreach Advisor
    Founder
    winsom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,630

    Default

    Eliminate Leveling Sigils

    Significantly lower the cost of convenience consumables.

    If there was a 2 Hour potion of +1 loot and +10% exp for 15 TP, don't you think a lot of people would buy it, and buy it often ?

    Some people will never buy those things but a LOT of people will frequently buy them. A lot of people will buy these 15 TP things enough times that they lose track of just how many they have bought. They will end up spending more on 15 TP consumables than they would have wanted to spend on a leveling sigil. They spent the extra because it was just a little at a time.

    Thats just an example. Turbine could overhaul most of the consumables. Notice how raising your character from the dead is around 100 TP ? That is something people will not do very often. IF the cost were around 20 TP then people would use it a lot more often, and end up spending more in the store than if the self-rez was 100 cost.
    Nightshayde, Wiz 17 (Ghallanda), Kyonna, Dru 13, Irnaetha, Mnk 15, Drelzna Art11/Rog2, Aurelyn, Pal11/Ftr2, Eidoloni, Rog 16, Tymore, Sor 20 (Khyber)

  3. #43
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylex_Night-Shield View Post
    How fast do you think that Turbine can produce more content? DDO in it's almost 4 years of being live has never produced an expansion. If I remember right, I think they actually promised us way back in the beginning that all in-game content would be free (for P2P players now that sort of applies). These huge places like Giant Hold, Desert, and Vale take months to prepare; from concept to mapping and then structuring to play testing. Not to mention the story telling and candies (loot) available. They could make cookie cutter maps and release them quickly but that would be boring as hell. "Wait, haven't I been in here before? Oh yeah, there's orcs in here instead of kobolds..." and then no one would buy it any ways.

    Thus, a point you seem to be forgetting is what is Turbine doing to make the P2P players happy? If they don't keep the P2P players happy, suddenly DDO will see a HUGE drop in profit. The highest priced quest pack I think is Giant Hold at 995 TP's so about $11 to buy it. How long do you think it took to make that pack? It's a huge map, with 10 dungeons and a raid and very nice loot that even lv 20's still run w/o being epic. But then, a F2P player can buy it for under the cost of 1 month of a P2P player. There's no way that Turbine (or anyone else really) could produce such high quality content faster. So, there has to be SOMETHING to keep the P2P players content to continue to pay a monthly fee. The only way Turbine could equal the costs out for P2P vs F2P players is to start charging packs at 4-5x their current TP's.

    Are they nickle and diming F2P players? Yup, they are. But at a cost of less then a fast food meal, it's not that hard to swallow. And it might even be good for my waist line. You also seem to be thinking that it should be free? There's no level sigils in WoW... but last I checked, you couldn't go above lv 60 unless you buy 1 expansion, lv 70 w/o another expansion and soon not to lv 85 w/o purchasing another expansion... of which if you want lv 85, you need to own all 3. You're not going to be in many raids at lv 60 when all the good stuff is at 85.

    Ultimately, I want Turbine to keep DDO up for many more months to come. But it needs to be profitable to remain open. No company in their right mind would continue to operate a business that's barely making it into the black each month. One big disaster can ruin them. There's also many factors that neither you or I can judge. What is Turbine's profit margin in DDO? What will become of the lawsuit between them and Atari? Is it possible for a 3rd company to undermine and/or buy out the rights to DDO?

    How close was DDO to the red before F2P was introduced? No one but inside personal have that info and it would never be released to the public until quarterly earnings are posted and even then, DDO would be mixed in with their other MMO's. We could all log in tomorrow and be locked out of game. Someone might have just bought 10,000 TP's and the world servers are brought down. You could visit the DDO forum page to be welcomed with a huge "We're Closed" sign. The question for all players, P2P and F2P is, "did you have fun playing the game while we had it"? I for one can honestly say yes I did. That includes having to buy sigils when I couldn't find them.

    Peace.
    Again, you fail to grasp the following:

    A: Sigils probably constitute a minor part of Turbine's profits.

    B: Turbine's primary strategy (which seems to be working wonderfully) is netting player (and thus revenue) growth via the F2P mechanic, and by releasing a la carte content for the new and existing players they attract to buy.

    C: Sigils are an indisputable annoyance that drives off and discourages players, potential and existing, and thus revenue as many would otherwise consume Turbine's products (this is precisely what Turbine is banking on), making their implementation clearly counterproductive.

    D: There are better, less counterproductive ways to make P2Ps feel confident in their subscription without offsetting these gains by undermining F2P consumer confidence.

    E: Additional but attractive content need not prepare months of preparation and testing; adventure packs are a single instance of a consumable good that allows for sustained income over an extended period.

    Further, even one time purchases such as adventure packs offer sustained long term income via the medium of player growth. As long as the player base keeps growing, new, quality, content will continue to prove extremely profitable; this is basically Valve's business model with L4D and Team Fortress 2. These games are interesting and highly applicable case studies as they are both games that require only one time purchases, often at very cheap discounted rates, yet continue to grow their playerbase and make money years after release, despite consuming substantial development resources on an ongoing basis. This is because Valve continues to successfully attract more customers via a combination of cleverly timed sales, and additional *free* content that further enhances the game for existing and future customers, thus making substantial profits via player growth *alone*. Additionally, there is little doubt that their highly satisfied customers also do a lot of advertising for them of the most powerful kind by conscripting their friends, as this business model is incredibly consumer friendly. In some cases, the combination of quality and low price will encourage existing players to buy the game for others; this is clearly something that Turbine should take note of.
    Last edited by Surrealistik; 11-13-2009 at 10:23 AM.

  4. #44
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,748

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Again, you fail to grasp the following:

    A: Sigils probably constitute a minor part of Turbine's profits.None of us know for sure the exact numbers, but they are one of the few potential recurring purchases for a F2P that can't be bothered to grind. Most others are one shot deals.

    B: Turbine's primary strategy (which seems to be working wonderfully) is netting player (and thus revenue) growth via the F2P mechanic, and by releasing a la carte content for the new and existing players they attract to buy.Agreed working so far, but we need to see if the momentum continues over the winter.

    C: Sigils are an indisputable annoyance that drives off and discourages SOME players, potential and existing, and thus revenue as many would otherwise consume Turbine's products (this is precisely what Turbine is banking on), making their implementation clearly counterproductive. Only if you presume that not having free sigils would prevent VIPs from going to F2P mode. Once you are used to not ever worrying about things like that it could be hard to give up.

    D: There are better, less counterproductive ways to make P2Ps feel confident in their subscription without offsetting these gains by undermining F2P consumer confidence.
    Broad statement, some examples please?

    E: Additional but attractive content need not prepare months of preparation and testing; adventure packs are a single instance of a consumable good that allows for sustained income over an extended period. Months of Prep and testing are critical to getting a quality product out the door. Many times the quests as released on Beta have been HORRIBLY Broken or abuseable. Only player feedback and our collective deviousness revealed some of those issues. What other sort of content would drive $$ their way that they are not already dipping their toes into.

    Further, even one time purchases such as adventure packs offer sustained long term income via the medium of player growth. As long as the player base keeps growing, new, quality, content will continue to prove extremely profitable; this is basically Valve's business model with L4D and Team Fortress 2. These games are interesting and highly applicable case studies as they are both games that require only one time purchases, often at very cheap discounted rates, yet continue to grow their playerbase and make money, despite consuming substantial development resources after launch. This is because Valve continues to successfully attract more customers via a combination of cleverly timed sales, and additional *free* content that further enhances the game for existing and future customers.
    There is a decided difference in mindset between those types of games and a RPG/MMO type of game. I know a great many players who do both, and the churn on the FPS type game is pretty heavy. They are always jumping to another game to check out the latest Gun Sims or whatever. It is the ACTION that draws them, not the world or society. Different overall demographic too.
    Last edited by Zenako; 11-13-2009 at 10:32 AM.
    Sarlona - Stormreach Requisition Company (SRC):Jareko-Elf Ranger12Rogue8; Hennako-Human Cleric20; Rukio-Human Paladin18; Taellya-Halfling Rogue16; Zenako-Dwarf Fighter10Cleric1; Daniko-Drow Bard20; Kerriganko-Human Cleric18; Buket-WF Fighter6; Xenophilia-Human Wiz20; Zenakotwo-Dwarf Cleric16; Yadnomko-Halfling Ftr12; Gabiko-Human Bard15;more

  5. #45
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    None of us know for sure the exact numbers, but they are one of the few potential recurring purchases for a F2P that can't be bothered to grind. Most others are one shot deals.

    I sincerely doubt that 1 or 2 sigil purchases (each a dollar or two worth of points, most of which is probably purchased via free TPs) on average per player that bothers to persist after hitting the "golden wall" amounts to a great deal relative to their other sources of income.


    Only if you presume that not having free sigils would prevent VIPs from going to F2P mode. Once you are used to not ever worrying about things like that it could be hard to give up.

    Why should VIPs go F2P over Sigils if VIP status were properly incentivised?


    Broad statement, some examples please?

    More Turbine points in their allowance and *working* Turbine point distribution are probably the two biggies. Special incentives for "locked in" subscriptions over pay-as-you-go models such as better point rates is also worth consideration.


    Months of Prep and testing are critical to getting a quality product out the door. Many times the quests as released on Beta have been HORRIBLY Broken or abuseable. Only player feedback and our collective deviousness revealed some of those issues. What other sort of content would drive $$ their way that they are not already dipping their toes into.

    While they are already "dipping their toes" into it, more reasonably priced consumables readily comes to mind, as well as the introduction of new features, and purchasable enhancements to those features (think something along the lines of shared banking).


    There is a decided difference in mindset between those types of games and a RPG/MMO type of game. I know a great many players who do both, and the churn on the FPS type game is pretty heavy. They are always jumping to another game to check out the latest Gun Sims or whatever. It is the ACTION that draws them, not the world or society. Different overall demographic too.
    What statistics are you consulting, or is this your "factual" opinion? I am a big fan of both RPGs and FPSes, and I know plenty of others out there who are likewise. That said, whatever perceived difference of mindset exists with regards to gameplay preferences is pretty much irrelevant relative to proven business models orientated about making the greatest yield (at least in so far as deciding what to charge for, how to charge for it, and how much to charge for it, i.e. your deployed framework of incentivisation). Just because someone wants an RPG over a tactical combat simulation, doesn't mean he'd be adverse or respond poorly to Valve's business model, or to otherwise presume that Valve's model, or an adaptation of that model would not work for Turbine on this premise. To argue otherwise would be completely inane. Customers respond to incentives, end of story. High quality + low price = unprecedented revenue, growth and customer satisfaction.
    Last edited by Surrealistik; 11-13-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  6. #46
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    18

    Default

    You guys are making this way to complicated. The suggestion is to increase sigil drop rates significantly or do away with it altogether. I really don't think we are qualified to dicuss their profit margins or marketing capabilities.

    Myself and many of us just think sigils is a waste of time and is very annoying. This is a suggestion from us F2P players asking if Turbine is willing to make this process a lot less painful or do away with this pain all together.

  7. #47
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Mines of Moria, post Bilbo pre Sauron's attempted return.
    Posts
    1,743

    Default

    Levelling sigils are around 150 Turbine Points on average (though a weighted average would be better placing the most weight on gold -> plat -> silver -> copper because there is a demand for the higher level sigils that far outstrips the supply from end rewards). It takes 100 favor to get 25 turbine points, which means you would have to get 150x4 = 600/25 = 2400 favor in order to buy all 4 sigils. This is about 600 favor short of all possible favor in the game. Since people who are able to get sigils do not have all the adventure packs unlocked* then this is a very difficult number to achieve.

    *It is possible to have paid for all the adventure packs but that is roughly 10000 turbine points, and is unlikely (very uncommon as of yet).

    There have been roughly 4 confirmed platinum sigils, 8 gold sigils , over 100 silver, and over 100 copper. Are players not getting to level 13 (gold requirement), or is everybody being forced to pay for them? I doubt all the people finding silvers and coppers are reporting in the forums, but I bet all the golds and platinums are (since they're so rare). My thought is that the sigil system must be bugged, or the scale must be off. Copper sigil 100% chance of finding regardless of standing (p2p or f2p) before the cap. Silver is probably 85% chance of finding before the cap (have only heard 3 people complaining of being sigil capped at 8). Gold seems to be around 1-5% (though I'm guessing the lower side of the scale since people who buy aren't posting that they buy and the number of people posting they haven't gotten it after being capped for weeks at lvl 14 -1). I can't even begin to imagine platinum if gold levels are so low. 100% -> 85 -> 3.5 -> ? This would be decreasing returns in the amounts of 15% -> 95% lost chance of finding one.

    To put this into perspective, you've just taken an exam. The first question is simple addition worth 15% of your grade, the second one is quantum mechanics worth 80% though the teacher said they'd be roughly the same worth and difficulty.

  8. #48
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hola Bienvenidos
    Posts
    4,487

    Default

    So remove the one real barrier for F2P? Then what compliant will follow next? Content is too expensive TP wise, guaranteed. I don't mind a tweak, but the removal of sigils will never happen.
    Hilarious Princess....Sorry your life is so medicore after all this time..Lol, you are scared of a farmer? with a tractor....?

  9. #49
    Stormreach Advisor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiewa View Post
    So remove the one real barrier for F2P? Then what compliant will follow next? Content is too expensive TP wise, guaranteed. I don't mind a tweak, but the removal of sigils will never happen.
    I give it 50-50 chances. It would be just so...typical.
    Sine Qua Non.

  10. #50
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Mines of Moria, post Bilbo pre Sauron's attempted return.
    Posts
    1,743

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiewa View Post
    So remove the one real barrier for F2P? Then what compliant will follow next? Content is too expensive TP wise, guaranteed. I don't mind a tweak, but the removal of sigils will never happen.
    I recommend a tweak, or more backloading of content with favor. . . if you can get more favor from levels 12 and below than from levels 13-20, then why would you waste 150+175=325, 325/25 = 13x100=1300 favor on the next 2 sigils if that's around or more than the favor possible from those levels? Just not economically feasible, though from a marginal utility standpoint, the higher level content is much more fun.

    My suggestion would be a more realistic scaling metric than 0->15->95% drop rate decreases. This would be a very steep curve and would lead me to believe the plat drops at a fraction of a percent rate were it to remain constant (probably be around 0% functional drop rate).

    A realistic change would be to drop the silver drop rate to 40% chance, gold to 70%, plat to 95%. This would be a much fairer drop percentage, but since this is such a money maker I'm not seeing a change. Plus I'm not THAT concerned (though it is annoying since it costs me 6 hours of work if I'm running 100 favor runs per hour then rerolling per sigil).

  11. #51
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,748

    Default

    Honestly, if it is not worth a couple of bucks to someone to purchase a hard to find gold/plat sigil in order to keep playing and leveling up that toon in their mostly free game, then they probably are not spending much $$ buying other stuff either. From what I see personally, most of the F2P types are focusing on a single major toon, and perhaps a secondary one or two (if they went premium at some point). Those are NOT the type of players who have 15 capped characters. Anyone with that much interest in the game would in all likelihood commit to being VIP.
    Sarlona - Stormreach Requisition Company (SRC):Jareko-Elf Ranger12Rogue8; Hennako-Human Cleric20; Rukio-Human Paladin18; Taellya-Halfling Rogue16; Zenako-Dwarf Fighter10Cleric1; Daniko-Drow Bard20; Kerriganko-Human Cleric18; Buket-WF Fighter6; Xenophilia-Human Wiz20; Zenakotwo-Dwarf Cleric16; Yadnomko-Halfling Ftr12; Gabiko-Human Bard15;more

  12. #52
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Mines of Moria, post Bilbo pre Sauron's attempted return.
    Posts
    1,743

    Default

    Consider what I'm thinking of. Get as many characters to a level cap as possible, buy VIP for a month. Level all said characters. Don't reup, saves quite a bit of money for the cheapskates, gives Turbine money. Creates more devotion to the game because of all the time spent.

  13. #53
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hola Bienvenidos
    Posts
    4,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    Honestly, if it is not worth a couple of bucks to someone to purchase a hard to find gold/plat sigil in order to keep playing and leveling up that toon in their mostly free game, then they probably are not spending much $$ buying other stuff either. From what I see personally, most of the F2P types are focusing on a single major toon, and perhaps a secondary one or two (if they went premium at some point). Those are NOT the type of players who have 15 capped characters. Anyone with that much interest in the game would in all likelihood commit to being VIP.
    I couldn't agree more. Sigils are extremely cheap, and if it is that aggravating to find one(which I don't really believe) and you won't buy one, frankly your not the customer that Turbine is looking for.
    Hilarious Princess....Sorry your life is so medicore after all this time..Lol, you are scared of a farmer? with a tractor....?

  14. #54
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    42

    Default

    Like others, I moved and now live in an "unauthorized region" - can't order with credit card, can't order with paypal, can't even find or buy a game card. Started on US server, have too many characters on Gallanda and now Cannith to go EU.

    So... I'm peeved. IMO Turbine can make pretty good games, and going F2P was a good decision for them, but for overall business practice?

    A) virtually every update, maintenance or otherwise consistently takes longer than they estimate. Four hours downtime... oops, nope, five hou... um, sorry, six... arghhh.... seven hours.

    B) requiring payment from a confirmed address in the United States... just smacks of fear of terrorism or something, by comparison, it makes the Transportation Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security seem happy to mind their own business - all they need is my passport and a full body search.

    C) Monty Haul - pretty much raped their subscribers with the "buy +2 tomes and 32 point builds" deal. Expecting to see +3 tomes by Christmas, +4 tomes by Valentine's Day, and +5 tomes by Easter... for sale alongside +5 Holy Vorpal Blades of Ultimate Destruction with Cherries on Top. But...there'll be people who will buy those +5 tomes, and DDO Prez will ask... "Hey, if we can make $49.95 on a +5 tome... how much could we get for a +10 tome? or...whoa dude... 48 point builds?! We'll just ah... ramp up the difficulty so everyone will need em to get the uber-uber lootz that are more uber than the uber lootz we're selling in the store... at least until next week!"

    Will give Turbine a bit more time, the sheer concept that DDO is getting better and more progressive means someone at or near the top either hired or hatched a brain. So...yes, this is snide... but the shoe fits. DDO = good game. Turbine = poor business management.

  15. #55
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hola Bienvenidos
    Posts
    4,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivid View Post
    Like others, I moved and now live in an "unauthorized region" - can't order with credit card, can't order with paypal, can't even find or buy a game card. Started on US server, have too many characters on Gallanda and now Cannith to go EU.

    So... I'm peeved. IMO Turbine can make pretty good games, and going F2P was a good decision for them, but for overall business practice?

    A) virtually every update, maintenance or otherwise consistently takes longer than they estimate. Four hours downtime... oops, nope, five hou... um, sorry, six... arghhh.... seven hours.

    B) requiring payment from a confirmed address in the United States... just smacks of fear of terrorism or something, by comparison, it makes the Transportation Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security seem happy to mind their own business - all they need is my passport and a full body search.

    C) Monty Haul - pretty much raped their subscribers with the "buy +2 tomes and 32 point builds" deal. Expecting to see +3 tomes by Christmas, +4 tomes by Valentine's Day, and +5 tomes by Easter... for sale alongside +5 Holy Vorpal Blades of Ultimate Destruction with Cherries on Top. But...there'll be people who will buy those +5 tomes, and DDO Prez will ask... "Hey, if we can make $49.95 on a +5 tome... how much could we get for a +10 tome? or...whoa dude... 48 point builds?! We'll just ah... ramp up the difficulty so everyone will need em to get the uber-uber lootz that are more uber than the uber lootz we're selling in the store... at least until next week!"

    Will give Turbine a bit more time, the sheer concept that DDO is getting better and more progressive means someone at or near the top either hired or hatched a brain. So...yes, this is snide... but the shoe fits. DDO = good game. Turbine = poor business management.
    A) every game has this, accept it or stop playing MMOs
    B) This is utterly ridiculous, there a plethora of valid reasons for this; Many non-gaming U.S. companies require this as well online a simple email to account services might solve one's problem, though with the attitude it's unlikely
    C) "raped"....really? Your comparing a company trying to make a game profitable for ONCE to an unspeakable crime? Really, you have serious issues dude, and this game isn't one of them.

    *side note on C* assuming you have 32 pt builds unlocked, why does it matter to you if somebody can buy them? It affects your play ZERO. Now? Not like +2 tomes were rare before EU; or is it, you couldn't buy them with your invalid cc?
    Last edited by Hokiewa; 11-16-2009 at 06:20 PM.
    Hilarious Princess....Sorry your life is so medicore after all this time..Lol, you are scared of a farmer? with a tractor....?

  16. #56
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    7,571

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiewa View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Sigils are extremely cheap, and if it is that aggravating to find one(which I don't really believe) and you won't buy one, frankly your not the customer that Turbine is looking for.
    This is just silly. Not the customer they are looking for? Anyone who gives them money to play their game is the customer they are looking for. As a side note, when plat sigils have less confirmed drops then +4 tomes on 20th end rewards for TOD or EPIC shards for one particular item then you know they are rare. And leveling sigils are a big annoyance. One that I know will cause people to leave the game. That is bad for the game period. For example, I have spent $90 on content in the game and $6 on sigils. I seriously considered not buying any content and going to another game before buying those sigils. That decision could have went either way very easily. So, $84 on a 50/50 decision for a $6 gain and my customer satisfaction went way down (meaning I will take longer to buy further packs in the future which directly equals less money for Turbine). The whole appeal of premium is being able to own the content. Being nickel and dimed for stuff like sigils and TR is counterproductive to Turbines long term profits. The sub model was a loser for them in the past as everyone who honestly played the game since launch will attest to. The store breathed a big breath of new life into the game. That store means premium players are the life blood of the game now. Keeping them happy is in Turbine's best interests.
    Proud Recipient of At least 8 Negative Rep From NA Threads.
    Main: Sharess
    Alts: Avaril/Cyr/Cyrillia/Garagos/Inim/Lamasa/Ravella

  17. #57
    Community Member Hokiewa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hola Bienvenidos
    Posts
    4,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    This is just silly. Not the customer they are looking for? Anyone who gives them money to play their game is the customer they are looking for. As a side note, when plat sigils have less confirmed drops then +4 tomes on 20th end rewards for TOD or EPIC shards for one particular item then you know they are rare. And leveling sigils are a big annoyance. One that I know will cause people to leave the game. That is bad for the game period. For example, I have spent $90 on content in the game and $6 on sigils. I seriously considered not buying any content and going to another game before buying those sigils. That decision could have went either way very easily. So, $84 on a 50/50 decision for a $6 gain and my customer satisfaction went way down (meaning I will take longer to buy further packs in the future which directly equals less money for Turbine). The whole appeal of premium is being able to own the content. Being nickel and dimed for stuff like sigils and TR is counterproductive to Turbines long term profits. The sub model was a loser for them in the past as everyone who honestly played the game since launch will attest to. The store breathed a big breath of new life into the game. That store means premium players are the life blood of the game now. Keeping them happy is in Turbine's best interests.
    You have missed the point completely. There is not a mass amount of people complaining about sigil drops, that's a fact. Copper/silver are easily found. Gold/Plat if you can't find them are about 4 bucks. Obviously, people will leave over sigils, just people will leave over not being able to afford content/hair dyes/32/vet etc....More people will stay. I'm not against tweaking the sigil system slightly, but it's not going away, and it's a fundamental business reason why. If you don't understand why the sigil system is the way it is, you obviously have no experiance in a for profit company. TR is NOT being nickeled and dimed. You don't get it clearly.


    ***edited in*** and you proved my point exactly about if the sigil system goes away, people will complain that content etc... is too expensive. You honestly believe TR is expensive? You do realize you can gather the materials for "Free"....Or are you just too lazy to grind for it?
    Last edited by Hokiewa; 11-16-2009 at 08:08 PM.
    Hilarious Princess....Sorry your life is so medicore after all this time..Lol, you are scared of a farmer? with a tractor....?

  18. #58
    Stormreach Advisor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiewa View Post
    *side note on C* assuming you have 32 pt builds unlocked, why does it matter to you if somebody can buy them? It affects your play ZERO.
    You qualify the statement, but be careful to not advocate the fallacy that the inflated power level does not affect quest design and thereby the play experience of those without.
    Sine Qua Non.

  19. #59
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiewa View Post
    You have missed the point completely. There is not a mass amount of people complaining about sigil drops, that's a fact. Copper/silver are easily found. Gold/Plat if you can't find them are about 4 bucks. Obviously, people will leave over sigils, just people will leave over not being able to afford content/hair dyes/32/vet etc....More people will stay. I'm not against tweaking the sigil system slightly, but it's not going away, and it's a fundamental business reason why. If you don't understand why the sigil system is the way it is, you obviously have no experiance in a for profit company. TR is NOT being nickeled and dimed. You don't get it clearly.


    ***edited in*** and you proved my point exactly about if the sigil system goes away, people will complain that content etc... is too expensive. You honestly believe TR is expensive? You do realize you can gather the materials for "Free"....Or are you just too lazy to grind for it?
    Actually Silver does usually require substantial grinding. Copper is pretty much the only Sigil that you can consistently find without trouble.

    Second, many more people will leave over Sigils than any of the things you mentioned. The reason why is because there is absolutely no concept of fair exchange. When doing something as fundamental and rudimentary as leveling in a game like DDO costs, people are going to feel ripped off. First of all, it's thrust in your face. It is all but imposed on you, there is no way around it, sigils are essential, unlike 32 point builds, Veteran Status, etc... Second, you are not truly unlocking additional content; you are not paying for something it cost Turbine any additional amount of money or effort to work on, or a genuine advantage in the game. No, you are paying for the "privilege" to level, to make use of existing, essential core game mechanics, which is completely repugnant.

    Third, when it comes down to it, from a business vantage, Sigils are pretty indefensible, for reasons I've mentioned earlier: They alienate, shrink and discourage the playerbase, even premium players, and thus have a negative impact on revenue and player growth, they probably only constitute a relatively small portion of Turbine's income, and any reduction in revenue suffered by repealing them will almost surely be more than made up by additional player growth and purchases of "fair exchange" (again, things that confer real benefits and advantages) content like adventure packs and consumables which people would have more money and points to spend on.

    Like Cyr, I'm beginning to doubt whether my investment in the game was worthwhile when every time I roll up a new character, I'm going to have to probably buy 2 Sigils on average or end up tearing my hair out. The points he raises are completely valid, and he certainly does "get it".
    Last edited by Surrealistik; 11-17-2009 at 02:06 PM.

  20. #60
    Community Member ThatSwordGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    18

    Default

    The sigils work perfectly for the pay-as-you-go business model.

    Every game that is potentially free with the option to pay money works like this:

    1. There is an amount of publicly available, free content that may or may not increase as the game grows. This should not be taken for granted, because it is not made freely available for your amusement, but rather, it is the bait.

    2. There is a consumable, single-use resource that must be purchased each time you experience the "full" extent of the game. This would be the sigils and store-bought items. The original MMO business plan (popularized by WoW) uses the monthly membership fee to fulfil this part of the business model. DDO:Unlimited allows players to pay smaller amounts for smaller pieces of the full experience, which greatly increases the number of potential customers (and frankly, is a better business model, even if it is risky).

    3. Finally, there is regularly introduced new content that costs money, but only needs to be purchased once. This is the second factor of the revenue.

    The revenue of the game will be the number of players (P) x the amount of single-purchase content (C) + the number of players (P) x the amount of consumable, single-use resources (R) x how long those players have played (T). Or... $ = P(C + RT).

    The important thing to realize is that the developers make money off of the Sigils and Store as time passes without any additional effort on their part. Instead of sitting on their thumbs, they use this money to make more content, which draws in more players, which in turn increases the number of Sigils that need to bought, which increases the number of developers they can hire. This continues forever, like WoW, until the game gets so big, so popular, that it collapses into a black-hole of filthy, filthy riches.

    In other words... without the sigils or subscriptions, the game can't make enough money to make new adventure packs. The fact that DDO even allows sigils to be dropped is an extreme kindness on their part (or perhaps it is just another bait for luring in potential new customers).

    P.S. Sigils are a polite way of keeping F2P players at low levels where most of the F2P content resides. If everyone shot straight up to level 14, then everyone would just complain about lack of free content, instead of the lack of sigils.

    P.P.S. you can't blame the developers for not caring whether or not sigils drive people away, because the sort of person who leaves because of sigils was probably never going to pay any money in the first place.
    Last edited by ThatSwordGuy; 11-17-2009 at 11:46 AM.

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload