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  1. #41
    Community Member zorander6's Avatar
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    removed
    Last edited by zorander6; 01-21-2010 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #42
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    Thumbs up

    This was an awesome read, for sure. I also like the comment someone made on acccepting failure and not beating yourself up over it, and that sometimes its ok if someone dies a lot, cause there usually is a good reason ^_-.

    What makes this post so believeable, is that this is the type of knowledge you can only get through a lot of actually play time and wisdom applied.
    Q&A is the business of pointing out others' failures. Optimists need not apply.

  3. #43
    Community Member soupertc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandos2 View Post
    Pray, how does that part happen?
    you run the Demon Queen Raid and get The Torc and also run The Shroud and make yourself a Concordant Opp item. When you have these items equip you have a chance of them procin and giving you mana back. They are 2 of the best items a cleric could have IMO.
    No I don't wear a Concordant Opp item on my Barb...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Zixx of the FlatBlade(Barb)

  4. #44
    Community Member soupertc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorander6 View Post
    I play an elven cleric for two reasons. 1. I can summon monsters to help me fight and 2. I can heal party members and myself if needed (and it shouldn't be needed constantly.) Can we make this required reading for anyone who expects a cleric to be a healbot only? I get a little annoyed at people who "the cleric should do a better job healing me after I run into a group of 20 monsters on an elite quest and we all die." Not to mention letting people know that if I have to run into the middle of those monsters to try to save your rear I want more than "you should have kept me alive." I'm not playing a healbot and I personally like to attack monsters as much as anyone else. Same with my firebreathing hellhound. I'm level 6 and have around 400sp, if I'm running out of sp before we've seen our first heal shrine the party needs to slow down. That's after buffing the group as most of my buffs last long enough that most quests can be at least halfway completed without rebuffing. If I summon a hellhound please let the puppy go first. He'll knock some HP down and make it all around easier to take out that group of 20 monsters you think you can take by your lonesome. I'm not the best cleric in the game, I'm not even a good cleric but if I am with the right players I can "top them off" occasionally and no one dies (usually.)
    playin a low level cleric is not fun for anyone really. Once you get Mass Cures then it becomes alot easier. Havin to single heal people with limited SP at low level just plain sucks. But just know it's better to let someone die then burn all your SP before big fights. Tell people to top themselves off when runnin to next part....if they don't have pots tell em they should get some. Sometimes being a jerk is what ya have to do as a cleric.....it'll get better though.
    No I don't wear a Concordant Opp item on my Barb...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Zixx of the FlatBlade(Barb)

  5. #45
    Community Member shenthing's Avatar
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    Default Wow

    If I had come across this post when I first created my Cleric, so many things would have been so different.
    There are a couple of things I would probably add to the OPs guide just as expansion.
    Somewhere around 2-4/Its pretty important to know where you stand in a party and if everyone is on a vent. Its great to take the lead when you can, but when you have veteran zergers and newbies mixed, you either have to take a stand or just deal... communication is critical in these early stages.
    Usually within the first couple of encounters running with a group, you get to see the truth of your party makeup. Does your WF barbie have healers friend? If not, you want to be a little more proactive with CC. The same holds true for DPS builds with no health or HP builds with no damage mitigation. The more you can do to prevent damage to the "I can only do one thing really well" builds, the less flaming about not healing the WF or being a bad healer you will have to deal with.

    Excellent post. +1

  6. #46
    Community Member Twerpp's Avatar
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    You forgot the last stage, FvS. Have the courage to dump your beloved cleric for an extremely more powerful class that does everything better (except turn undead, lol).

    Hopefully the PrE's will change that, if you've got the patience to wait on that...

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoron View Post
    Very informative and Greatly apreciated! Here is a bump since I dont want this post going anywhere.

    I was looking for exactly this kind of information trying to get ready to build a Hopefully good Cleric myself. From the information here I know that I have more reading and lots of play time to really get this down, which is a good thing since I am walking into this eyes wide open. The fact that you point out what all goes into a Good Cleric actually made me want to try it more since it seems more of a challenge.

    Just in case you see me out there please know that all mistakes are mine and are in spite of your best efforts!
    Yes, I was hoping this post would help the new player base. I'm glad its reaching some of the target audience with a good reception. Playing a cleric well can be a signficant challenge. That's one reason I enjoy the class. The spot in the group often is the difference between success/failure or smooth/problematic completions. One thing to keep in mind is that you are in a position to affect the terms of the engagment so to speak during a fight, through crowd control, kiting, use of healing, offensive casting, and melee.
    Doing a good job here is like peeing in a dark suit.

    You get a warm feeling, but nobody really notices.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twerpp View Post
    You forgot the last stage, FvS. Have the courage to dump your beloved cleric for an extremely more powerful class that does everything better (except turn undead, lol).
    could you expand on that?

  9. #49
    Community Member Visty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BracchusBridgeburner View Post
    could you expand on that?
    favsouls can do the same things as clerics (save turning) and have more mana

    so they are superior

    it might change with the prestige enhancements, but till then favsoul >>> cleric
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visty View Post
    favsouls can do the same things as clerics (save turning) and have more mana

    so they are superior

    it might change with the prestige enhancements, but till then favsoul >>> cleric
    Except for the lack of spell swapping at shrines, no Dvs or other turn based functions, and much slower spell progression. They are the same class.

    Every class has its place in Dnd and Ddo.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorander6 View Post
    Can we make this required reading for anyone who expects a cleric to be a healbot only?
    Unfortunately, no. And they tend to reinforce healbot play, because it allows them to play builds or with playstyles that necessitate a babysitter to keep them alive. It's a trap that many cleric players play into. It sounds like you are resisting the temptation, and I would encourage you to continue to do so. There is a viewpoint, especially present in players from MMOs, that a cleric is only there to heal. It is also seen in players that get an intermediate level of experience, where they have started to learn the game but really haven't become experts. They've learned to play one way that works for them in their guild/static group, and they think its the best way. They haven't yet learned that there are other ways out there, that may even be superior.
    Doing a good job here is like peeing in a dark suit.

    You get a warm feeling, but nobody really notices.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twerpp View Post
    You forgot the last stage, FvS. Have the courage to dump your beloved cleric for an extremely more powerful class that does everything better (except turn undead, lol).

    Hopefully the PrE's will change that, if you've got the patience to wait on that...
    Ah, this. Not really the spot to debate this, so I will just make the point that FS being better than a cleric is a fallacy (in my opinion). I've debated it in other threads.

    I've got a capped FS with greensteel, and my cleric is more potent. I often find this opinion that FS are better in players that haven't passed the overhealer stage. In those that I have talked to that are actually skilled clerics, 80% think the cleric to be more potent. However, if you are going to healbot, FS have more mana, and I recommend them to entry level players. Once you learn how to heal efficiently, the cleric is actually more potent (one higher DC, alot more than 4 spells per level that are swappable, cleric capstone, and empowered healing enhancements). As a raid leader I would take a cleric over a FS every single time.

    I do appreciate the kind comments as to the worth of the thread. Thank you.

    And for all you clerics struggling, all clerics have been there. Thank you for playing a healer and persevere, because players need clerics and it isn't an overnight skill to develop.
    Last edited by The_Great_Samulas; 11-16-2009 at 02:06 PM.
    Doing a good job here is like peeing in a dark suit.

    You get a warm feeling, but nobody really notices.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by shenthing View Post
    If I had come across this post when I first created my Cleric, so many things would have been so different.
    There are a couple of things I would probably add to the OPs guide just as expansion.
    Somewhere around 2-4/Its pretty important to know where you stand in a party and if everyone is on a vent. Its great to take the lead when you can, but when you have veteran zergers and newbies mixed, you either have to take a stand or just deal... communication is critical in these early stages.
    Usually within the first couple of encounters running with a group, you get to see the truth of your party makeup. Does your WF barbie have healers friend? If not, you want to be a little more proactive with CC. The same holds true for DPS builds with no health or HP builds with no damage mitigation. The more you can do to prevent damage to the "I can only do one thing really well" builds, the less flaming about not healing the WF or being a bad healer you will have to deal with.

    Excellent post. +1
    Yes, I was hoping to save some of the newer players some angst. The post appears to be having this effect. We need more clerics and I keep hearing stories about people getting to level 5-7 then quitting and building something else. Also people quit their clerics when they get stuck at the healbot stage for too long. Hopefully these people can be helped as well, and we will have more clerics around.

    I agree with getting a feel with how the group interacts and noticing weak points in groups can save you alot of heartache.

    Oh, and if anyone gives you grief over not healing well enough just remember that veteran players can often solo the content you are doing (that's before they made it easier to solo). The reason I point this out is that the offending party most likely woudn't need someone to save his @ss if he just played better, or had a better build. Not that you necessarily couldn't do a better job healing sometimes, but that the others almost always could do a better job at damage mitigation and target prioritizing. Just say, "I'm sorry. <insert dramatic pause> I'm sorry you're so special that you need someone to save your @ss every 30 seconds in a quest." Don't tolerate this abuse, give it back in spades is my philosophy.
    Last edited by The_Great_Samulas; 11-20-2009 at 10:52 AM.
    Doing a good job here is like peeing in a dark suit.

    You get a warm feeling, but nobody really notices.

  14. #54
    Community Member DireWolverine's Avatar
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    Well. I don't get enough time on my cleric (mostly soloed my way to level 4), but I'll certainly keep this stuff in mind for when I play him more frequently. Very nice read, well-presented and thought-provoking. Thanks!

    EDIT: And I probably won't have to deal with the heal-bot stage too much... I'm too solid a battle-cleric build for that. Smashing mobs is too much fun to give up.

  15. #55

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    /bump

    don't want this getting forgotten.

  16. #56
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    Pointed here from the latest episode of DDOcast

    ------------

    First of all, that's a brilliant post you made there, and I find it to be descriptive of my experiences playing a cleric up to level 19 in AD&D some years ago

    I *also* find it to be a complete counterpoint to my experiences playing a Battle Cleric in DDO... I mean that the false expectations that people have had during the course of playing my Battle Clerics have *closely* mirrored the progression that you have detailed, right up until the point where they have been conduced by the facts to realise that these toons are basically Fighters who will, when necessary, stop fighting and heal the party back up into full attack capability. But primary focus, whacking bad guys...

    I've actually started levelling up a couple of *healers* LOL -- and I am certainly finding that it is extremely easy to provide overpowered healing (my Battle Clerics do not have this problem lol).

    One piece of general advice I would add is that a fully competent healer is one that will be stingy with mana and resources. Chuggalugging mana pots is (with some obvious exceptions) a clear sign of insufficiently competent healing.

  17. #57
    Community Member soupertc's Avatar
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    I callled Sam to let him know he's semi famous now.

    Just remember Sam.....it's just like peeing in a darksuit....OK.
    No I don't wear a Concordant Opp item on my Barb...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Zixx of the FlatBlade(Barb)

  18. #58
    Community Member dopey69's Avatar
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    Default thank you

    was a great post and a ty out to ddo podcast for mentioning this post as i missed it!
    op pluss rep too u

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natashaelle View Post
    Pointed here from the latest episode of DDOcast

    ------------

    First of all, that's a brilliant post you made there, and I find it to be descriptive of my experiences playing a cleric up to level 19 in AD&D some years ago

    I *also* find it to be a complete counterpoint to my experiences playing a Battle Cleric in DDO... I mean that the false expectations that people have had during the course of playing my Battle Clerics have *closely* mirrored the progression that you have detailed, right up until the point where they have been conduced by the facts to realise that these toons are basically Fighters who will, when necessary, stop fighting and heal the party back up into full attack capability. But primary focus, whacking bad guys...

    I've actually started levelling up a couple of *healers* LOL -- and I am certainly finding that it is extremely easy to provide overpowered healing (my Battle Clerics do not have this problem lol).

    One piece of general advice I would add is that a fully competent healer is one that will be stingy with mana and resources. Chuggalugging mana pots is (with some obvious exceptions) a clear sign of insufficiently competent healing.
    Battle clerics is a somewhat complicated subject, but I'll respond in the tenor of this thread. There are two main types of "battle clerics". The most common is a cleric based build that is designed to fight, providing buffs for himself and some down-time healing for the group and himself. This type of battle cleric doesn't take responsibility for keeping the group alive and governing the course of a battle with crowd control, offensive casting, and kiting. Hence, this "battle cleric" doesn't follow the progression at all that I have outlined. They are fundamentally more of a solo-oriented build. The second more rare form of a "battle cleric" is just a cleric that has been built to be able to fight, they still believe keeping the group alive is their responsibility and follow the progression. This type of "battle cleric" is a much more advanced playstyle than the first, and much more difficult to master.

    You will see confusion often in newer players who want a solo-oriented character and thinking they can take on a main healing role in a group (or others believing they can, despite their repeated explicatives that they can't). There is a world of difference between a properly built "battle cleric" of the first type and a cleric or battle cleric of the second type as far as healing. Natashaelle has commented on his noticing this difference in noticing the capability of a cleric to provide overhealing that a battle cleric simply can't. I don't consider the second type of "battle cleric" a battle cleric at all but simply a properly played advanced cleric stage (5-7). And just as a note, the first type of battle cleric is somewhat outdated, as the FvS with proper splashes is superior in my opinion.

    As far as mana pot useage, I agree, it is almost always the sign of a cleric stuggling in stage 4 with over-healing or in stages 5-6 struggling with balancing the three aspects. Of course, there are exceptions such as bad groups or running new content, but if you are chugging mana pots regularly, you're static group is bad or there are issues with you playstyle.

    Oh, and I like the DDOcast spotlight on the thread. It will allow the thread to help more struggling clerics by increasing visibility, which is already seen in a couple of posts. Thanks for the kind words, and you are welcome.
    Last edited by The_Great_Samulas; 12-08-2009 at 09:22 AM.
    Doing a good job here is like peeing in a dark suit.

    You get a warm feeling, but nobody really notices.

  20. #60
    Community Member zorander6's Avatar
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    removed
    Last edited by zorander6; 01-21-2010 at 12:01 PM.

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