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  1. #1
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Default Monkey_Archer's attack speed index

    and we start over....

    Base attack speed:
    BAB 20: 88
    BAB 15-19: 87
    BAB 10-14: 86
    BAB 5-9: 85
    BAB 1-4: 84

    Hasted THF-TWF-S&B
    BAB 20: 102-106-108
    BAB 15-19: 100-104-106
    BAB 10-14: 99-103-105
    BAB 5-9: 97-101-103

    Tempest TWF base
    BAB 15-19: 97

    Tempest TWF hasted
    BAB 15-19: 114

    Wind stance 4 THF-TWF-S&B (note: haste+wind stance 4 = wind stance 4 alone )
    BAB 20: ??-116-??

    Madstoned THF-TWF-S&B
    BAB 20: ??-110-??
    BAB 15-19: ??-110-??

    Madstone + Windstance THF-TWF-S&B
    BAB 20: ??-118-??


    Base Unarmed attack speed
    BAB 20: 96
    BAB 15: 95
    BAB 10: 94
    BAB 5: 93
    BAB 4: 92

    Hasted Unarmed
    BAB 20: 114

    Windstance 4 Unarmed
    BAB 20: 128

    Madstoned Unarmed
    BAB 20: 122

    Madstone + windstance 4 Unarmed
    BAB 20: 132

    THF Twitch base speed
    BAB 15-19: 103
    BAB 10-14: 101

    THF Twitch Madstoned
    BAB 20: 138

    Numbers in red are not tested by me
    Numbers in Yellow are esimates based on patterns
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 05-25-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Default Other issues

    Madstone still gives 20% haste speed.. even though Haste was reduced to 15%
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 10-01-2009 at 06:43 PM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Apparently the "fake" BAB granted by madstone and divine power does not give a full BAB 20 attack speed.

    Tested on a level 20, BAB 10 character, hasted, madstone, greataxe.
    Result: 100 attacks per minute , which is the BAB 16 attack speed hasted, not BAB 20.
    I can only speculate a lot of frustration in the eyes of those with splash builds, battle clerics, FvS and Battle mages... and getting even worse for those who multi-classed a little deeper then 3 levels.
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  4. #4
    Community Member drac317's Avatar
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    Default

    and staves with acrobat arnt much faster than any other two-hander
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Well, until cforce has the time to start a new thread I thought I would begin the data collection process...
    Ha-ha! You've fallen for my clever trick! Now, *you* must own all of the data-gathering tasks!

    But seriously, thanks for starting this off. I haven't touched the new patch, as I've been traveling all week -- probably start digging sometime after I'm home. Although, given that Eladrin's last couple of posts sounds like there might be another speed adjustment, I may hold off the serious number crunching for now.

    One thing I noticed from your numbers, though: apparently the patch does *not* fix the 'twitch THF is better then straight-up THF' problem, as the patch notes seemed to imply? Disappointing!
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  6. #6
    WikiGnome
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    Default

    It does seem to reduce the effectiveness quite a bit though. Maybe we'll see more improvements around that line too in future updates.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Sweyn's Avatar
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    I have noticed that madstone rage/divine power has made an increase in attack speed. I was un hasted and was constaltly swinging when my madstone rage wore of (on my 17/1/1 build).. my attacks did slow down just a little.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Ha-ha! You've fallen for my clever trick! Now, *you* must own all of the data-gathering tasks!

    But seriously, thanks for starting this off. I haven't touched the new patch, as I've been traveling all week -- probably start digging sometime after I'm home. Although, given that Eladrin's last couple of posts sounds like there might be another speed adjustment, I may hold off the serious number crunching for now.

    One thing I noticed from your numbers, though: apparently the patch does *not* fix the 'twitch THF is better then straight-up THF' problem, as the patch notes seemed to imply? Disappointing!
    D'oh!

    Yeah im probably going to wait and see how this whole attack speed thing plays out... no point in dedicating alot of time just to have it changed again...

    THF twitch is alot closer now though... it is slower, but not quite as slow as auto-attack.. but auto attack now has glancing blows on 3/4 attacks instead of 3/5.
    It was indeed a nerf to twitch attacks and a slight buff to autoattacking... but the real winner was TWF (that for whatever reason gained an extra attack )
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  9. #9
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    found twitching much more effective at 20 than at 19. very odd. autoattack only improved by a few attacks/min whereas twitch went up by roughly ten.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    I have noticed that madstone rage/divine power has made an increase in attack speed. I was un hasted and was constaltly swinging when my madstone rage wore of (on my 17/1/1 build).. my attacks did slow down just a little.
    madstone gives a 20% increase in attack speed (that does not stack with haste) that is probably what you were noticing
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  11. #11
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    found twitching much more effective at 20 than at 19. very odd. autoattack only improved by a few attacks/min whereas twitch went up by roughly ten.
    interesting... makes me want to get my fighter up to 20 now... and while im at it maybe reroll my archon without evasion

    Eladrin indicated that BAB 20 was basically identical to the old BAB 16... wondering if the slowdown to moving attacks did not affect BAB 20 because its still using the old attack speed...
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 09-19-2009 at 08:40 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It does seem to reduce the effectiveness quite a bit though. Maybe we'll see more improvements around that line too in future updates.
    It was such a short time that a THF fighter's dps was almost comparable to a TWF.... now the THF is gimped threads can start up again

    On the bright side, THF balancing issues such as giving them double (or 1.5x) the bonus from abilities like weapon specialization, divine favor, or divine might can be discussed without a huge distance between twitch and non-twitch dps..
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  13. #13
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    By the way, Monkey, you confirm that a GTWF non-Tempest III has nine swings per round?
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  14. #14
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    By the way, Monkey, you confirm that a GTWF non-Tempest III has nine swings per round?
    yes the patch did give 9 swings for TWF... i havent actually tested it since the hotfix though
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  15. #15

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    Hey, Monkey -- what stance were all the flat BAB numbers gathered in?

    I was playing around with the old attack speed estimator spreadsheet, on the hypothesis: "the basic stacking mechanics are the same, and only the durations have been changed in 9.1". It looks like at BAB 16/17, the predictions match your observations very closely -- usually spot on, with a deviation of 1 here and there. That didn't surprise me that much. (Also, do you still not believe me on how they stack, if my predicted values are matching your observed ones? )

    Quick edit of the spreadsheet can be found here (you'll have to make a copy to play around with it): http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...jNUpOUGc&hl=en

    But, it only works for high BAB's -- when I try the attack values around BAB 8, it doesn't work out. I'm wondering if maybe the scaling base speed is *itself* implemented as another speed buff in the stack (or maybe debuff for low BABs), but if that was the case, I wouldn't expect THF and S&B to have *exactly* the same base attacks/min at every BAB; I'd expect to see some difference at either the bottom or top of the range.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Normal attack rates
    ??
    Define Normal please. TWF, THF, SnB? Unhasted?

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Apparently the "fake" BAB granted by madstone and divine power does not give a full BAB 20 attack speed.

    Tested on a level 20, BAB 10 character, hasted, madstone, greataxe.
    Result: 100 attacks per minute , which is the BAB 16 attack speed hasted, not BAB 20.
    Hmmm… If that’s the case you may want to do some testing on a TWF monk with kamas then.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    ??
    Define Normal please. TWF, THF, SnB? Unhasted?
    Normal means unbuffed... all 3 styles are equal for all BABs i tested while unbuffed
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  19. #19
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    hurry up n hit 20 monkey
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  20. #20
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Hey, Monkey -- what stance were all the flat BAB numbers gathered in?

    I was playing around with the old attack speed estimator spreadsheet, on the hypothesis: "the basic stacking mechanics are the same, and only the durations have been changed in 9.1". It looks like at BAB 16/17, the predictions match your observations very closely -- usually spot on, with a deviation of 1 here and there. That didn't surprise me that much. (Also, do you still not believe me on how they stack, if my predicted values are matching your observed ones? )
    I never disagreed that haste effects benefited TWF and S&B more then THF... only that the result of stacking tempest+haste+haste boost was overestimated

    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    Quick edit of the spreadsheet can be found here (you'll have to make a copy to play around with it): http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...jNUpOUGc&hl=en

    But, it only works for high BAB's -- when I try the attack values around BAB 8, it doesn't work out. I'm wondering if maybe the scaling base speed is *itself* implemented as another speed buff in the stack (or maybe debuff for low BABs), but if that was the case, I wouldn't expect THF and S&B to have *exactly* the same base attacks/min at every BAB; I'd expect to see some difference at either the bottom or top of the range.
    I know Eladrin said that the increase from BAB 3-20 was linear, but it seems that anything below BAB 10 doesnt quite follow the same trend. I thought i noticed a slight differnce in swing speed at BAB 3 (one test had THF 1 attack slower then TWF but that may have been an error)
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