Page 3 of 31 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 607
  1. #41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by totmacher View Post
    yeah i read them. they equalized attack speeds. twf has been too many, too fast for a long time. this is a good nerf, not initially to all of those that built exploiter builds but this was necessary. hopefully they'll give the twfers a couple of extra attacks as well to smooth it out at some point but this is a good base for building on a more balanced system

    this is a good thing.
    A twitching THF used to get more attacks if done right than a TWFs main hand. Now they get the same. So no anyone with near perfect twitch got nerfed if the patch notes are accurate. Non-twitchers got buffed.

    ■All melee weapon styles (including one and two handed weapons) now have an identical number of (main hand) swings over time
    Last edited by FluffyCalico; 09-17-2009 at 09:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    *pokes the patch with a stick* get out there you,
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    We were pretty up front that the twf update was going to be a nerf regardless of lag or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'?

  2. #42
    Community Member Arkat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    6,247

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCalico View Post
    Am I reading it wrong or did they buff non twitching THF and nerf twitching THF both at the same time with the same fix?
    That's how I read it.

    If that's correct, Shade is gonna be peeved!

  3. #43
    Community Member Turial's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    ... Now, all we are left with is a bunch of disheartened ranged combatants who resort to snide comments when combat adjustments are made... just like today.
    Most of us have been at this point for some time.

    It becomes harder and harder to stay ranged as the difficulty of quests moves up. There was a time when I would balance between ranged and TWF. Now I only use ranged when I remember to during manyshot and against the new raid boss because I don't have boots yet.
    970 sp and counting
    Help Fix Ranged Combat for Everyone. Come help complete the DDO Wiki

  4. #44
    Community Member Elsbet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Northern Virginia--We want to be our own state!
    Posts
    1,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Turial View Post
    Looks like all combat but ranged got a boost.
    Typical, really.

    Darn! Ninja'd!


    ~Anaelsbet~, 15 clr; ~Elsbet~, 7 rngr; ~Lilabet~, 20 bard; Islabet, 20 clr
    Phaeddre, 12 rog/2 clr

  5. #45
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Standing Behind You!
    Posts
    1,222

    Default

    I'm looking forward to see how this improves my monk DPS.

    Also as to the question about how much of an attack speed increase 1 BAB is, I would imagine its 1.25% or less per BAB.

  6. #46
    Community Member Ciaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    within your base of operations, enacting fatal attacks upon your conscripts
    Posts
    2,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCalico View Post
    They said before 16 vs 20 was about 3% so I am thinking 1% or less
    Right. Missed that. Thanks!

    Doesn't seem to be a very drastic difference.

    Although I have to wonder about the pure rogue DPS builds now...since they wind up with a lower BAB it seems they will attack ~4% slower now.
    Last edited by Ciaran; 09-17-2009 at 09:48 AM.
    ♣♣♣DON'T BAN ME, BRO!♣♣♣
    Sarlona

  7. #47
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Fargo, ND
    Posts
    1,077

    Default

    /not signed

    They took away some big advantages that BA can give you. It just does not seem right that a wizard or rogue should be able to swing as often as a melee focused class.

    And getting the +5 and +10 earlier just lets everyone run around with 2 medium weapons earlier (i.e. the 500 Drizzt builds I have seen in the last week), thinking that 'hey I should hit with my last two swings at least'.

    As someone pointed out the change between 16 and 20 is only about 3%, with so many ways to boost attack speed in this game, designing a character with crappy BA no longer matters as the swing speed will be pretty negligable.

    And we all know that hitting has never really been a problem.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca the Elder
    Iryklaunavan, Jhasmyne, Desideratum, Temere, Debacchor, Fidicina, Gregorii
    Ubique Eo, Invenio me esse ducem hominium.

  8. #48
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    6,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    That's how I read it.

    If that's correct, Shade is gonna be peeved!

    Yes, but now he'll save a bunch of money on whatever drug it was that allowed him to twitch in such a way

  9. #49
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    /not signed

    They took away some big advantages that BA can give you. It just does not seem right that a wizard or rogue should be able to swing as often as a melee focused class.

    And getting the +5 and +10 earlier just lets everyone run around with 2 medium weapons earlier (i.e. the 500 Drizzt builds I have seen in the last week), thinking that 'hey I should hit with my last two swings at least'.

    As someone pointed out the change between 16 and 20 is only about 3%, with so many ways to boost attack speed in this game, designing a character with crappy BA no longer matters as the swing speed will be pretty negligable.

    And we all know that hitting has never really been a problem.
    I agree. The one hesitation about this is that some things SHOULD have big steps. If, for example, some class feature gives you +1 something per level, it's easy to stop a few levels short, and think "Hey, I'm only 2 less than a pure character, but look at all the stuff I multi-classed into". However, if stopping a few levels short cuts them off before a big step up in that something, then it makes the multi-class choice more costly.

    That being said, I'd suggest looking into reintroducing some 'steps'. Maybe at BaB 15 and/or 20 give a little extra something than the regular +1% alacrity or whatever.

  10. #50
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
    Although I have to wonder about the pure rogue DPS builds now...since they wind up with a lower BAB it seems they will attack ~4% slower now.
    It already was that way. Oh, and 5 BABs is only a 2-3% difference.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  11. #51
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    I agree. The one hesitation about this is that some things SHOULD have big steps. If, for example, some class feature gives you +1 something per level, it's easy to stop a few levels short, and think "Hey, I'm only 2 less than a pure character, but look at all the stuff I multi-classed into". However, if stopping a few levels short cuts them off before a big step up in that something, then it makes the multi-class choice more costly.
    If you pile up enough advantages at one level, you don't need steps.

    It's a simply addition. Instead of thinking "I miss that big +3" you end up thinking "I miss those three +1's" but you end up missing on as much.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  12. #52
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It's a simply addition. Instead of thinking "I miss that big +3" you end up thinking "I miss those three +1's" but you end up missing on as much.
    Maybe I'm just used to that feature in PnP. It occurs in DDO too, but DP clickies and other things make it less of an issue. However, when multi-classing, BaB was an important concern...you might miss out on an extra attack or two if you didn't let that BaB get high enough. That's a big deal, and I think it was a useful balancing feature.

    Now it's relegated to just a 5% or 10% difference in attack speed. I know that's useful and that it matters, but it seriously removes that useful BaB balancing feature that I like.

    Ignoring PrE's and Feats (which I know isn't entirely fair), at a basic level, a Full BaB character will just attack about 10% faster than a Half BaB character...seems like there should be more of a difference at that basic level. Of course PrEs and other Enhancements and class features push things back towards the Full BaB character.

    I guess I'm just not ready to let the importance of BaB go so easily.

    I guess if you implement things at the 15 and 20 BaB levels for pure BaB classes...like Fighter 15, Paladin 15, Barbarian 20, etc...then you actually restrict that improvement to those classes, rather than having the half-BaB classes able to 'poach' that benefit by using DP clickies. Though really it's probably just better to implement some little steps referencing your TRUE BaB, regardless of class, so multi-class full BaB classes would get the benefit.

    Gotta think about it...opinion developing...
    Last edited by rimble; 09-17-2009 at 10:15 AM.

  13. #53
    Community Member Ciaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    within your base of operations, enacting fatal attacks upon your conscripts
    Posts
    2,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It already was that way. Oh, and 5 BABs is only a 2-3% difference.
    It was? I never realized that...probably because I don't have a full rogue.

    Thanks!
    ♣♣♣DON'T BAN ME, BRO!♣♣♣
    Sarlona

  14. #54
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Marlborough, MA
    Posts
    2,009

    Default

    To start this off - let me put it out there right now that I expect that there will be modifications to the new combat speed and styles over time as I gather more data. If you feel slighted by the changes, we'll notice and it's likely to be adjusted. Likewise, if <style X> ends up dramatically over the top, it's likely to be adjusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I have to ask, is there any particular reason to delay some animations to +1, +2 and +3 BAB? Did it look too "skilled" for a warrior that just started or was there any other problems behind it?
    It's mostly this last point. We experimented with several different progressions, and found that we liked the ones where non-martial classes felt less skilled than martial classes at the lowest levels, without ever subjecting someone to a single attack in their attack chain.

    Also why +1 or +2? does it vary depending on the class?
    It might have been better worded as "BAB +1 and +2" rather than "or". Doesn't vary based on class.

    And, isn't +10 to-hit a bit unbalancing at low levels?
    We don't mind low level character getting a high chance of hitting on their third and fourth swings.

    Good move. Even for quarterstaves?
    All weapon styles should have the same number of main hand attacks per minute if you stand there holding down the attack button. (Except monk unarmed combat, which is around 10-12% faster. Flurry of blows!)

    Can we know how they've been changed?
    See first paragraph of my post before reading this next section, as these are close to the top of "things most likely to be adjusted in the future":

    Dual Wielding:
    Off hand attacks on attacks #2 and #4.
    ITWF adds off hand attack on attack #3.
    GTWF adds off hand attacks on attacks #1 and #4.
    Ranger Tempest III adds main hand attack on attack #3.

    Monk:
    TWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #2 and #4.
    ITWF adds additional attack hook on attack #3.
    GTWF adds additional attack hooks on attacks #1 and #4.

    Two Handed:
    Glancing blows on attacks #1 and #4.
    GTHF adds additional Glancing Blows on attack #3.

    If so, how? Is there a small delay of attacks while after moving?
    We set the time to complete a two swing mobile attack chain to equal a little over one half of the time to complete a four swing standing attack chain.

    These changes are not a fully comprehensive solution to some combat animation problems we have, but we think they'll go a bit to address some of them.

    I loved the look of the 5th Q-staff attack!
    You may see them again in the future. We'll probably assign the old fifth attack animations to some special clicky-attacks. (Sped up as necessary to keep them optimal.)

  15. #55
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Now it's relegated to just a 5% or 10% difference in attack speed.
    No, it's not. It's also a bonus to your capacity to hit stuff.

    Basically, it got scaled down to the power level to has in PnP: a small bonus to DPS and increased accuracy.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  16. #56
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Basically, it got scaled down to the power level to has in PnP: a small bonus to DPS and increased accuracy.
    I don't see that. Maybe you've crunched the math, but those extra 'steps' towards having an extra attack or two over a half-BaB character were a big deal.

  17. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    No, it's not. It's also a bonus to your capacity to hit stuff.

    Basically, it got scaled down to the power level to has in PnP: a small bonus to DPS and increased accuracy.
    Agreed. Seems to be an effort to flatten best spec vs average spec, fix animation problems at the same time, and leave openings to bump up mob ACs in a future patch.
    Brenna / Tzanna, The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent on Argo
    "As the party's resident trap expert ..." <dies with smug yet surprised expression on face>

  18. #58
    Community Member Turial's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    To start this off - let me put it out there right now that I expect that there will be modifications to the new combat speed and styles over time as I gather more data. If you feel slighted by the changes, we'll notice and it's likely to be adjusted. Likewise, if <style X> ends up dramatically over the top, it's likely to be adjusted....
    1) Thanks for in post Eladrin. A lot of the stuff you touched on was helpful in figuring how all my characters will change.

    2) Any comment at this time on ranged combat in general?
    970 sp and counting
    Help Fix Ranged Combat for Everyone. Come help complete the DDO Wiki

  19. #59
    Community Member Archguru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Don't worry about the speed bonus, the "optimized" swing speed for all weapons is now slow as molassess.

  20. #60
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    If you feel slighted by the changes, we'll notice and it's likely to be adjusted. Likewise, if <style X> ends up dramatically over the top, it's likely to be adjusted.
    In before "You're lying!! You never listen to us. You've never listen to a player's suggestion or input!!"

    PS: I am clearly a Turbine employee in disguise and therefore the fact that Eladrin just implemented my suggestion does not count.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    It's mostly this last point. We experimented with several different progressions, and found that we liked the ones where non-martial classes felt less skilled than martial classes at the lowest levels, without ever subjecting someone to a single attack in their attack chain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    It might have been better worded as "BAB +1 and +2" rather than "or". Doesn't vary based on class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    We don't mind low level character getting a high chance of hitting on their third and fourth swings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    We set the time to complete a two swing mobile attack chain to equal a little over one half of the time to complete a four swing standing attack chain.

    These changes are not a fully comprehensive solution to some combat animation problems we have, but we think they'll go a bit to address some of them.
    Thanks for these clarifications/explanations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Dual Wielding:
    Off hand attacks on attacks #2 and #4.
    ITWF adds off hand attack on attack #3.
    GTWF adds off hand attacks on attacks #1 and #4.
    Ranger Tempest III adds main hand attack on attack #3.
    If I get this right, it means:
    • 0 BAB with TWF: 3 attacks per round
    • 1 BAB with TWF: 4 attacks per round
    • 3 BAB with TWF: 6 attacks per round
    • ITWF: 7 attacks per round
    • GTWF: 9 attacks per round
    • STWF: 10 attacks per round

    If we make a ration of one-handed versus TWF we have:
    • 0 BAB: 3/2=1.5
    • 1 BAB: 4/3=1.33
    • 3 BAB: 6/4=1.5
    • 6 BAB: 7/4=1.75
    • 11 BAB: 9/4=2.25
    • Tempest III: 10/4=2.5

    Am I still still following you correctly or did I make a mistake?

    If I am indeed following you correctly, this means that TWF... got buffed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    All weapon styles should have the same number of main hand attacks per minute if you stand there holding down the attack button. (Except monk unarmed combat, which is around 10-12% faster. Flurry of blows!)
    /nitpick on
    Flurry of Blows also apply when the monks is using monk weapons like kamas and quartertaves.
    /nitpick off

    Last edited by Borror0; 09-17-2009 at 10:43 AM.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

Page 3 of 31 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload