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  1. #81
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    Default Can't give up on this...

    ...so here's another bump. Anyone heard from Seregon?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    No one cares what an 18/1/1 can do.

    Go post it in the 18/1/1 thread. Some of us like capstones, 5th FE's (which itself is like another +4 perm strength to all mobs that FE's from the +2 to damage for each FE level).

    These comparisons are absurd. This build is in NO way gimped. It's just not an exploiter build. Why WE ALL KNOW THAT!

    Why do people keep coming in here and posting as though that's something we don't know or care to see written in regards to this build again and again?

    Do you know that the defintiion of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

    You're all insane.
    Is there anyway to create a build just as effective as a human or elf? I enjoy the use of Longswords.

  3. #83
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Default Reviving the classics, I see... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanV View Post
    Is there anyway to create a build just as effective as a human or elf? I enjoy the use of Longswords.
    While I'm not a fan of pure Tempests, the basics of building one hasn't changed much, in part because almost half your feats go into the Tempest pre-reqs. Human has the advantage of an extra feat; HE can take the rog dilly for 3d6 SA; both races get Versatility, Adaptability, and heal amp. Longswords are a mediocre DPS choice, though; khopeshes, scimitars, rapiers, or even heavy picks are better choices, IMHO.

    Here's an example of what a pure human Tempest might look like today:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 True Neutral Human Female
    (20 Ranger \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 377
    Spell Points: 260 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 16
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             18                    27
    Dexterity            14                    18
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 15 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 16 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
    
    
    Level 19 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 20 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elf
    Enhancement: Ranger Master of Archery
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance III
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
    
    
    Level 21 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 22 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 23 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 24 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 25 (Ranger)
    There are 4 APs left unspent; the idea is to save them so she can even out any odd stat she has with Greater Adaptability. With the changes to the AC system and the introduction of PRR last year, I prefer TWD on Tempest III builds instead of OTWF or Lightning Reflexes. Depending on gear, by endgame she should have 40-45 PRR (~22% dmg reduction). A HE version would pick a dilly (I vote rog for 3d6 SA) and have to drop a feat; I'd be tempted to drop khopesh, switch to IC:Pierce, and use rapiers (or hvy picks), aiming for Balizarde someday.

    Like I said, because of the 4 Tempest pre-req feats, you don't have a lot of wiggle room. I took Quik+Emp Heal to emphasize her self-sufficiency; they also boost Rejuvenation Cocoon, which is practically a must-have for anyone who wants to self-heal. But I could have taken a couple of ranged feats; or added Cleave & GC to give her some AoE melee DPS (with the intention of adding Lay Waste & Momentum Swing) - if I dropped khopesh & rearranged feats a bit, I could also squeeze in Overwhelming Crit.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    While I'm not a fan of pure Tempests, the basics of building one hasn't changed much, in part because almost half your feats go into the Tempest pre-reqs. Human has the advantage of an extra feat; HE can take the rog dilly for 3d6 SA; both races get Versatility, Adaptability, and heal amp. Longswords are a mediocre DPS choice, though; khopeshes, scimitars, rapiers, or even heavy picks are better choices, IMHO.

    Here's an example of what a pure human Tempest might look like today:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 True Neutral Human Female
    (20 Ranger \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 377
    Spell Points: 260 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 16
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             18                    27
    Dexterity            14                    18
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence          8                     8
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 15 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 16 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
    
    
    Level 19 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 20 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elf
    Enhancement: Ranger Master of Archery
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance III
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
    
    
    Level 21 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 22 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 23 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 24 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 25 (Ranger)
    There are 4 APs left unspent; the idea is to save them so she can even out any odd stat she has with Greater Adaptability. With the changes to the AC system and the introduction of PRR last year, I prefer TWD on Tempest III builds instead of OTWF or Lightning Reflexes. Depending on gear, by endgame she should have 40-45 PRR (~22% dmg reduction). A HE version would pick a dilly (I vote rog for 3d6 SA) and have to drop a feat; I'd be tempted to drop khopesh, switch to IC:Pierce, and use rapiers (or hvy picks), aiming for Balizarde someday.

    Like I said, because of the 4 Tempest pre-req feats, you don't have a lot of wiggle room. I took Quik+Emp Heal to emphasize her self-sufficiency; they also boost Rejuvenation Cocoon, which is practically a must-have for anyone who wants to self-heal. But I could have taken a couple of ranged feats; or added Cleave & GC to give her some AoE melee DPS (with the intention of adding Lay Waste & Momentum Swing) - if I dropped khopesh & rearranged feats a bit, I could also squeeze in Overwhelming Crit.
    Would dual Bastard Swords be a poor choice of weapons for the Human Tempest? Also, why are Long Swords not a good choice of weapon for this?

  5. #85
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeanV View Post
    Would dual Bastard Swords be a poor choice of weapons for the Human Tempest? Also, why are Long Swords not a good choice of weapon for this?
    Okay, this is an oversimplification, but there are four basic components to a weapon's DPS: the base dmg die, the crit multiplier, the crit range, and the [W] multiplier (if any). It may be counter-intuitive, but the base dmg die is actually the least important factor, because so much of your base dmg will be determined by other factors: e.g., your STR, buffs, class bonuses, ED bonuses, etc. Crits are what's more important; you're constantly trying to maximize how often you crit and how high your crit dmg is. So the higher the crit multiplier and the larger the crit range, the better.

    Presuming DR & fortification aren't a factor, the best 2H weapon is (still) the eSOS, because it couples the largest crit range (18-20) with an x3 multiplier (highest that 2H weapons get) and a 2.5[W] modifier. Khopeshes have been king of TWF DPS for a long time now, because they're the only 1H weapon type with a 19-20 x3 crit profile. Rapiers & scimitars' crit profile is 18-20 x2; their DPS is ~5% behind khopeshes, IIRC. Longswords & b.swords are behind them, with 19-20 x2. Worst of all are weapons with 20 x2, like sickles & kamas.

    Again, that's a broad generalization. When looking at specific named weapons, right now the best 1H epic weapon is Balizarde (rapier); Deathnip (hvy pick) is great for ML:14. If you go with b.swords, Nightmare is pretty cool.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Okay, this is an oversimplification, but there are four basic components to a weapon's DPS: the base dmg die, the crit multiplier, the crit range, and the [W] multiplier (if any). It may be counter-intuitive, but the base dmg die is actually the least important factor, because so much of your base dmg will be determined by other factors: e.g., your STR, buffs, class bonuses, ED bonuses, etc. Crits are what's more important; you're constantly trying to maximize how often you crit and how high your crit dmg is. So the higher the crit multiplier and the larger the crit range, the better.

    Presuming DR & fortification aren't a factor, the best 2H weapon is (still) the eSOS, because it couples the largest crit range (18-20) with an x3 multiplier (highest that 2H weapons get) and a 2.5[W] modifier. Khopeshes have been king of TWF DPS for a long time now, because they're the only 1H weapon type with a 19-20 x3 crit profile. Rapiers & scimitars' crit profile is 18-20 x2; their DPS is ~5% behind khopeshes, IIRC. Longswords & b.swords are behind them, with 19-20 x2. Worst of all are weapons with 20 x2, like sickles & kamas.

    Again, that's a broad generalization. When looking at specific named weapons, right now the best 1H epic weapon is Balizarde (rapier); Deathnip (hvy pick) is great for ML:14. If you go with b.swords, Nightmare is pretty cool.
    I appreciate your help. Do you know of any good 28pt. Paladin tank builds?

  7. #87
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeanV View Post
    Do you know of any good 28pt. Paladin tank builds?
    Yes.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Yes.
    Is there any chance that you can post 1 up for me? Everyone that i've found is based off of some reincarnation **** that i'm no where near.

  9. #89
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    The build I linked is a 28-pt F2P first-lifer with relatively modest tome pre-reqs: +2 STR for Overwhelming Crit, +2 CHA for Divine Might III. And those are both optional; they add a nice bit of extra DPS, but they're not required. So I'm not sure what else you're looking for...

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Okay, this is an oversimplification, but there are four basic components to a weapon's DPS: the base dmg die, the crit multiplier, the crit range, and the [W] multiplier (if any). It may be counter-intuitive, but the base dmg die is actually the least important factor, because so much of your base dmg will be determined by other factors: e.g., your STR, buffs, class bonuses, ED bonuses, etc. Crits are what's more important; you're constantly trying to maximize how often you crit and how high your crit dmg is. So the higher the crit multiplier and the larger the crit range, the better.

    Presuming DR & fortification aren't a factor, the best 2H weapon is (still) the eSOS, because it couples the largest crit range (18-20) with an x3 multiplier (highest that 2H weapons get) and a 2.5[W] modifier. Khopeshes have been king of TWF DPS for a long time now, because they're the only 1H weapon type with a 19-20 x3 crit profile. Rapiers & scimitars' crit profile is 18-20 x2; their DPS is ~5% behind khopeshes, IIRC. Longswords & b.swords are behind them, with 19-20 x2. Worst of all are weapons with 20 x2, like sickles & kamas.

    Again, that's a broad generalization. When looking at specific named weapons, right now the best 1H epic weapon is Balizarde (rapier); Deathnip (hvy pick) is great for ML:14. If you go with b.swords, Nightmare is pretty cool.
    Good explanation. I'll break the math down 1 step further:
    On a x3 crit you are doing triple damage, which is basically adding 2 additional base damages. So, if you have a longbow without any crit feats, over the course of 20 attacks (assuming you hit on anything but a 1) you'll do 21 base damages (1 miss on a "1", 18 regular, and one x3 crit).

    So breaking it down that way, and assuming people will have improved crit in their favored weapon we get this damage breakdown by "base damage" units:
    Khopesh: 27
    scimitar/rapier/pick: 25
    dwarven axe/bastard sword/longsword (anything 20/x3 or 19/x2): 23
    Then we add 12x seeker damage for khopesh, 10x for the next group, and 8x for the next group

    So, for instance, my 25 tempest/kensei swings for about 50 damage/swing on a normal hit and has 10 seeker. By using a khopesh instead of a longsword I gain about 240 damage (50+10 * 4) every 20 swings, or the equivalent of about 12/swing (roughly a 20% increase in damage).

    Now you know why longswords are a crappy choice for melee.

    Picks gain an additional advantage for those in Fury since their adrenaline hits will be huge due to the multiplier.

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